Proselytizing

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

There's more. I never read Ecclesiastes in its entirety but damn:

Oppression, Toil, Friendlessness

4 Again I looked and saw all the oppression that was taking place under the sun:

I saw the tears of the oppressed—
and they have no comforter;
power was on the side of their oppressors—
and they have no comforter.
2 And I declared that the dead,
who had already died,
are happier than the living,
who are still alive.
3 But better than both
is the one who has never been born,
who has not seen the evil
that is done under the sun.
4 And I saw that all toil and all achievement spring from one person’s envy of another. This too is meaningless, a chasing after the wind.

5 Fools fold their hands
and ruin themselves.
6 Better one handful with tranquillity
than two handfuls with toil
and chasing after the wind.
7 Again I saw something meaningless under the sun:

8 There was a man all alone;
he had neither son nor brother.
There was no end to his toil,
yet his eyes were not content with his wealth.
“For whom am I toiling,” he asked,
“and why am I depriving myself of enjoyment?”
This too is meaningless—
a miserable business!

I mean sheesh this is just straight up "f the world"

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

I'm really enjoying reading Ecclesiastes

18 This is what I have observed to be good: that it is appropriate for a person to eat, to drink and to find satisfaction in their toilsome labor under the sun during the few days of life God has given them—for this is their lot. 19 Moreover, when God gives someone wealth and possessions, and the ability to enjoy them, to accept their lot and be happy in their toil—this is a gift of God. 20 They seldom reflect on the days of their life, because God keeps them occupied with gladness of heart.

 

[Sunstone]

I'm really enjoying reading Ecclesiastes.

I love that book, but I hadn't read it in a while. Thanks for posting so much of it!

By the way, there's a whole literature of laments like Ecclesiastes from Mesopotamia and Egypt of around that time and earlier. You might like those too, although Ecclesiastes stands out, I think.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

I love that book, but I hadn't read it in a while. Thanks for posting so much of it!

By the way, there's a whole literature of laments like Ecclesiastes from Mesopotamia and Egypt of around that time and earlier. You might like those too, although Ecclesiastes stands out, I think.

I have really not seen such an outstanding portrayal of the world in awhile. It reeks of nihilism (as we call it today not necessarily what Nietchze wrote) but at the same time I see that internal spark to survive. Despite all the complaining that the writer does he never really advocates suicide and even says to take pleasure in your work even if it is all for nothing. Despite that the writer still maintains a belief in doing Gods commandments despite acknowledgement that there is no such thing as an afterlife, even going as far as to compare mans death with animals (something that I don't think many would even agree with). The claim "there is nothing new under the sun" is one that still rings true today.

yet at the same time this line I think is one that every young generation should say to the old:

Do not say, “Why were the old days better than these?”
For it is not wise to ask such questions.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

My goodness it is so Good. I was just going to make a passing comment about it (in relation to Greek Philosophy), but it is so amazingly well written. I need to read more of the Bible again. I thought myself really well literate when it came to it, but wow.

 

[Sunstone]

My goodness it is so Good. I was just going to make a passing comment about it (in relation to Greek Philosophy), but it is so amazingly well written. I need to read more of the Bible again. I thought myself really well literate when it came to it, but wow.

How would you place it in relation to the Greeks? And to which Greeks?

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

How would you place it in relation to the Greeks? And to which Greeks?

Well it was more aimed at Peggs comment that the Greeks were about "live today and eat and drink for tomorrow we will die" and it gives a similar light.

The writer at several points makes the statement that everything is for nothing so just enjoy what you have cause we will all die anyways.

 

[Sunstone]

Well it was more aimed at Peggs comment that the Greeks were about "live today and eat and drink for tomorrow we will die" and it gives a similar light.

The writer at several points makes the statement that everything is for nothing so just enjoy what you have cause we will all die anyways.

Good point!

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Good point!

It's a really good Book. The no afterlife part is extremely interesting from a Christian point of view.

 

[Pegg]

Strange that you would object to Greek philosophy, since it - including stoicism -pervades the New Testament. Christianity was a mix of Jewish thought, Greek thought, and a few of its own ideas. It was reliant on both Jewish religion and Greek philosophy without being faithful to either one.

i think by that you mean the later 'christian teachers' came to be influenced by Greek philosophy... what is written in the bible is not even close to being anything like greek philosophy because the people who wrote the bible were not influenced by it.

Christianity and Judaism came to adopt many of the greeks teachings, yes, but the bible never did. Its still as it was written and it doesnt contain greek philosophies.

 

[Pegg]

Shssssh! Don't tell Pegg. She's a whole lot funnier when she preaches Greek philosophy "isn't reasoning" while carrying around a New Testament full of it.

ok, well how about you point me to some scriptures containing greek philosophy....that i would be interested in seeing.

 

[Pegg]

Well it was more aimed at Peggs comment that the Greeks were about "live today and eat and drink for tomorrow we will die" and it gives a similar light.

The writer at several points makes the statement that everything is for nothing so just enjoy what you have cause we will all die anyways.

But his point is quite different to the greek philiosphers who said we should just focus on getting as much pleasure out of life as we can while we can. Solomons words are more about the vanity of man’s way of life. That includes pleasure seeking.

His point is that we do not live very long, yet we pursue goals which are pointless vanities. And at the end of the book he writes his conclusion:

“The conclusion of the matter, everything having been heard, is: Fear the true God and keep his commandments. For this is the whole obligation of man. For the true God himself will bring every sort of work into the judgment in relation to every hidden thing, as to whether it is good or bad.”

So unlike the greek philosophers who's ultimate goal was to seek enjoyment and pleasure, Solomon points to our obligation to our creator and advises that we live a life that pleases God.

And why do you think he concludes his book with this advice?

 

[Pegg]

It's a really good Book. The no afterlife part is extremely interesting from a Christian point of view.

Did you notice this verse:

“He has put eternity into man’s mind.” Ecclesiastes 3:11


what do you think this means?

 

[Sunstone]

ok, well how about you point me to some scriptures containing greek philosophy....that i would be interested in seeing.

Why don't you look up the influence of neo-Platonic thought on Christianity and the Bible.




(By the way, Pegg, you know so little about Greek philosophy that you haven't even a clue how stupid your petty condemnation of it is.)

 

[Sunstone]

Did you notice this verse:

“He has put eternity into man’s mind.” Ecclesiastes 3:11


what do you think this means?

Maybe Ecclesiastes is pointing out that because we have a notion of eternity, we have a notion that all is vanity. I understand though if that's too subtle for you, Pegg.

 

[Pegg]

Why don't you look up the influence of neo-Platonic thought on Christianity and the Bible.




(By the way, Pegg, you know so little about Greek philosophy that you haven't even a clue how stupid your petty condemnation of it is.)

so you dont have any scriptures to show me??


That was kind of my point. Yes, Christianity and its teachings have been influenced by greek philosophy, but the bible has not. You wont find greek teachings in there as i'm sure you are aware.

And you might be right, I probably dont know much about Greek philosophy...and i dont feel im missing out by not knowing.

 

[Pegg]

Maybe Ecclesiastes is pointing out that because we have a notion of eternity, we have a notion that all is vanity. I understand though if that's too subtle for you, Pegg.

well, i think we have more then just a 'notion' of eternity... we have a 'desire' for it. Solomon says God 'put it in our hearts'

Why would God give us such a desire if it were not meant to be filled?

 

[Debater Slayer]

lol, i wouldnt call greek philosophy 'reasoning'

"eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we shall die" does not show sound reasoning does it?

Or what of the Stoics who stressed that, because of fate or natural destiny, we should be virtuous but at the same time, indifferent to pain or pleasure. Is that the sort of reasoning you think surpasses Pauls teaching of 'accountability' and 'responsibility'?

I have often observed that many of those who most vehemently oppose Greek philosophy--or their caricatures of it--are either ignorant of it or realize that logical reasoning is anathema to their beliefs, hence their contempt for it.

As for Paul's teachings, well... let's not even go there. It says more than enough about a person when their bigotry keeps on giving for centuries after their death.

 

[Sunstone]

well, i think we have more then just a 'notion' of eternity... we have a 'desire' for it. Solomon says God 'put it in our hearts'

Why would God give us such a desire if it were not meant to be filled?

Speak for your own heart, Pegg. The last time I felt any desire to hang around for eternity, I was a juvenile. Hence, I think such desires are pretty much adolescent things that some folks don't grow up and out of.

By the way, the Greeks invented tragedy, Pegg. Do you agree with Walter Kaufmann's notion that the tragic worldview is inherently superior to the Christian? Why or why not? Come on, Pegg, you're an authority on the Greeks. Let's hear you wing what tragedy is.

 

[Sunstone]

so you dont have any scriptures to show me??


That was kind of my point. Yes, Christianity and its teachings have been influenced by greek philosophy, but the bible has not. You wont find greek teachings in there as i'm sure you are aware.

And you might be right, I probably dont know much about Greek philosophy...and i dont feel im missing out by not knowing.

So, Pegg, if you're right that the bible has not been influence by Greek philosophy (and you actually couldn't be more wrong) then why do you suppose the Book of John begins with referencing this thing the KJV calls "the Word", which in the original Greek is "Logos"? Where, O Most Knowledgeable Scholar Pegg, does that word, "Logos" come from?