Proselytizing

[Jayhawker Soule]

If she was a single woman/girl, the man had to marry her by law.

Barbaric.

Only through the eyes of a twentieth century citizen of a democratic state. For the women in question, it was literally life-saving. It's far too easy to look with contempt on early civilization and the rules some established to defend the most vulnerable ...

 

[Sunstone]

Only through the eyes of a twentieth century citizen of a democratic state. For the women in question, it was literally life-saving.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would assume the rule was life saving because a raped woman could not reasonably expect to marry anyone other than her rapist, and could not reasonably expect to make a living on her own.

If that was the case, then it would seem to me to imply a human origin to the law, rather than a divine origin, as some might believe.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Only through the eyes of a twentieth century citizen of a democratic state. For the women in question, it was literally life-saving. It's far too easy to look with contempt on early civilization and the rules some established to defend the most vulnerable ...

Oh man, they would hate me then.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Since when is rape a form of proselytizing? I mean, this thread is about proselytizing, right?

The tangent's my fault. :sorry1:

Earlier, the discussion touched on justification for proselytizing: if a person doesn't have good reason to believe what they believe, then what justification could they possibly have to decide that their "truth" is better than someone else's to the degree that they decide that the other person has to change their mind?

In response to this, Pegg gave her explanation for why she thinks she does have good reasons for what she believes, which included the "superior wisdom" of the Bible. I pointed out one example of what that "superior wisdom" actually entails.

 

[ChristineES]

I never took it to mean rape, I always took to mean fornication.

 

[ChristineES]

The way I see it, proselytizing to someone who does not want to be preached to is against Jesus' teachings. Jesus told his apostles to walk away from those who rejected the teachings and to "shake the dust off their sandals" and let, in so many words, let God deal with them.

 

[Pegg]

Only through the eyes of a twentieth century citizen of a democratic state. For the women in question, it was literally life-saving. It's far too easy to look with contempt on early civilization and the rules some established to defend the most vulnerable ...

very good point.

mans culture in ancient times was very different to today. And not only in Israel but in all the nations, females were expected to be chaste virgins until they were married (its the same in many cultures today)....otherwise no one would marry them and that would have been a far worse situation for a young woman back then.

I was just watching a documentary about India and what happens to the young girls who are raped over there today...they become societies outcasts. No one wants to know them, they loose the respect of their communities and all their friends and no one will marry them. Its tragic that the women are accused of doing wrong when they are raped, but thats the way they are treated....its culturally ingrained.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

very good point.

mans culture in ancient times was very different to today. And not only in Israel but in all the nations, females were expected to be chaste virgins until they were married (its the same in many cultures today)....otherwise no one would marry them and that would have been a far worse situation for a young woman back then.

This works fine if the rules of the Torah are an incremental improvement created by human beings. It doesn't work if they're supposed to be an expression of the will of an all-knowing, loving god.

 

[Pegg]

In response to this, Pegg gave her explanation for why she thinks she does have good reasons for what she believes, which included the "superior wisdom" of the Bible. I pointed out one example of what that "superior wisdom" actually entails.

and unfortunately your example doesnt apply because as i mentioned, its a 'mosaic' law... applicable to one group of people in ancient times and not applicable to anyone today.

 

[Pegg]

This works fine if the rules of the Torah are an incremental improvement created by human beings. It doesn't work if they're supposed to be an expression of the will of an all-knowing, loving god.

the laws were an improvement on the lives of ancient hebrews.

You must understand their purpose... they were to highlight right and wrong behaviour. It is wrong to have sex with no intention of marrying.

seems fairly simple to me.

 

[Pegg]

... to the detriment of rape victims.


Selling a woman to her rapist shows her no honour. This rule treats women as property and is based on no higher principle than "you break it, you buy it."

in an ancient culture, that was what men did. They are still doing it today through the porn industry...and that includes those who support the porn industry by buying their products.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

and unfortunately your example doesnt apply because as i mentioned, its a 'mosaic' law... applicable to one group of people in ancient times and not applicable to anyone today.

If it was handed down by God, then it serves as a glimpse into the mind of God. Does the God who gave this commandment still reign today? You don't strike me as a Marcionite.

 

[Pegg]

If it was handed down by God, then it serves as a glimpse into the mind of God. Does the God who gave this commandment still reign today? You don't strike me as a Marcionite.

and in the mind of God, no one would be having sexual relations until they were married and Men wouldnt rape women.

Thats what the law tells me and that sounds right on perfect.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

the laws were an improvement on the lives of ancient hebrews.

You must understand their purpose... they were to highlight right and wrong behaviour. It is wrong to have sex with no intention of marrying.

But not wrong to treat women as property? Or at least not so wrong that it wasn't worth "highlighting"?

seems fairly simple to me.

Indeed.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

and in the mind of God, no one would be having sexual relations until they were married and Men wouldnt rape women.

Thats what the law tells me and that sounds right on perfect.

"If you're going to rape someone, it should be your wife you rape." That's what this law says.

The fine from the rapist doesn't even go to the victim; it goes to her father. It treats the woman as merchandise that's been damaged, not as a human being.

 

[Pegg]

"If you're going to rape someone, it should be your wife you rape." That's what this law says.

The fine from the rapist doesn't even go to the victim; it goes to her father. It treats the woman as merchandise that's been damaged, not as a human being.

many cultures still pay a bride price today....its a cultural thing, not a religious one.

 

[Pegg]

But not wrong to treat women as property? Or at least not so wrong that it wasn't worth "highlighting"?


Indeed.

again, thats a cultural thing, not a religious one.

And women are still treated as property today in every nation on earth because the problem starts with men and how they themselves view women. If you are going to go on a crusade about the mosaic laws, you should seriously consider starting your crusade in real time. There are plenty of cases for you to persue...ie the porn industry would be a good place to start. Women are for sale right there.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

in an ancient culture, that was what men did. They are still doing it today through the porn industry...and that includes those who support the porn industry by buying their products.

I've heard there's a lot of gay porn. Are men today selling other men into the porn industry, too? Or do you consider men to be their own masters who enter the porn industry by their own will?

In other words, might you still think of women as salable property moreso than you think of men as salable property?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

many cultures still pay a bride price today....its a cultural thing, not a religious one.

again, thats a cultural thing, not a religious one.

Saying "it's a cultural thing" doesn't change the fact that your Bible claims that God gave it his stamp of approval.

And women are still treated as property today in every nation on earth because the problem starts with men and how they themselves view women. If you are going to go on a crusade about the mosaic laws, you should seriously consider starting your crusade in real time. There are plenty of cases for you to persue...ie the porn industry would be a good place to start. Women are for sale right there.

You're deflecting. You're the one who justified your proselytizing with the "superior wisdom" of the Bible. If someone else who advocates for the mistreatment of women comes forward to sell me on their point of view, then I'll address them directly. For the time being, it's just you who's telling me that it's a good idea to push Biblical "morality" on people.

 

[Pegg]

I've heard there's a lot of gay porn. Are men today selling other men into the porn industry, too? Or do you consider men to be their own masters who enter the porn industry by their own will?

In other words, might you still think of women as salable property moreso than you think of men as salable property?

deflection much?

Either way, its still men selling someone.