Proselytizing

[Pegg]

There is no such thing as "random chance" in anything,

random chance is exactly what evolution purports... thats what 'undirected' means.

 

[roger1440]

 

[McBell]

More like Poker...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

you are talking about the mosaic law here...it applied to the nation of Isreal, not to all mankind.

So buying rape victims WAS the right thing to do, but only in a certain time and place?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

because the regularities of these laws are mathematically precise, universal, and tied together.... you cant have one without the other!

A pendulum is regular and mathematically precise. This doesn't mean that angels are pulling invisible strings to make sure it keeps proper time.

The real question we should be asking is how nature came so neatly packaged in this fashion? Can it really be attributed to random chance?

You're getting back into argument from ignorance territory: "I can't understand how it could've happened without being designed, therefore it must have been designed." This is irrational.

There's probably special pleading in there too... unless you don't consider God to be "mathematically precise", "universal", and "neatly packaged" too.

 

[Sunstone]

you are talking about the mosaic law here...it applied to the nation of Isreal, not to all mankind.

Jeebers, Pegg! Did it even work for the nation of Israel, or did they effective drop it? So much for the Bible's superior wisdom, eh?

 

[Sunstone]

We have a written record of his dealings with mankind. The nation he formed (Isrealites) are still with us today. Every account in the bible that explains a given event can be seen in our world today, ie flood, division of languages, animosity between man and woman, the gravitation toward wrongdoing are some examples.

And with all this matter surrounding us in the universe, there is no way it could have arrived here on its own. The organization of matter could not have happened undirected. There is far too much physical evidence of a brilliant mind at work for me to believe it all just happened on its own.



He did. He created the first of the 'kinds' and they went forth and reproduced into a great variety.

Gen 1:21*And God proceeded to create the great sea monsters and every living soul that moves about, which the waters swarmed forth according to their kinds, and every winged flying creature according to its kind. And God got to see that [it was] good. 22*With that God blessed them, saying: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the waters in the sea basins, and let the flying creatures become many in the earth.” 23*And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a fifth day. 24*And God went on to say: “Let the earth put forth living souls according to their kinds, domestic animal and moving animal and wild beast of the earth according to its kind.” And it came to be so.



he told us to wash ourselves our hands, clothing, utensils and such:

Lev 11:39*“‘Now in case any beast that is YOURS for food should die, he who touches its dead body will be unclean until the evening. 40*And he who eats any of its dead body will wash his garments, and he must be unclean until the evening; and he who carries off its dead body will wash his garments, and he must be unclean until the evening.

Leviticus 15:4*“‘Any bed upon which the one having a running discharge may lie down will be unclean, and any article upon which he may sit will be unclean. 5*And a man who may touch his bed should wash his garments, and he must bathe in water and be unclean until the evening. ... 8*And in the case of the one who has a running discharge spitting upon someone clean, he must in that case wash his garments and bathe in water and be unclean until the evening. 9*And any saddle upon which the one having a running discharge was riding will be unclean. 10*And anyone touching anything that happens to be under him will be unclean until the evening; and he who carries them will wash his garments, and he must bathe in water and be unclean until the evening. 11*And anyone whom the one having a running discharge might touch when he has not rinsed his hands in water must then wash his garments and bathe in water and be unclean until the evening. 12*And an earthenware vessel that the one having a running discharge might touch should be smashed; and any wooden vessel should be rinsed with water.




no blood is harmless. Blood carries any disease that the person has contracted...thats why doctors do blood tests to find what illness the person has.



He told us that too:

Deut 23:12*And a private place should be at your service outside the camp, and you must go out there. 13*And a peg should be at your service along with your implements, and it must occur that when you squat outside, you must also dig a hole with it and turn and cover your excrement



and that he did, he gave us the proverbs which give us the best advice for keeping good relations with one another.



I wouldnt call the bible 'unverified'

There were at least 3 million Isrealites who came out of Egypt who all verified that Jehovah had acted in their behalf. Those 3 million are still remembered to day because of the testimony they gave and which we have in the form of the Hebrew scriptures.

Your reasoning is downright Procrustean. Are you sure you are not a follower of Zeus?

 

[Parsimony]

There is no such thing as "random chance" in anything,

As far as can be currently ascertained, certain quantum phenomena are random.

 

[roger1440]

As far as can be currently ascertained, certain quantum phenomena are random.

Do you have a link that is dumbed down a little so I could understand?

 

[Parsimony]

Do you have a link that is dumbed down a little so I could understand?

Determinism

Scroll down to the part about the "Quantum realm".

 

[Sees]

Determinism

Scroll down to the part about the "Quantum realm".

That part is a good read...I like the Hawking's "determined probabilities"

 

[BSM1]

I'm seeing what that has to do with the subject of proselytism. Trying to convert non-believers and actions taken against members of a religion are two different things.

Wasn't trying to be critical. My point-even though poorly stated-was that most organized religions have to have a 'hook' that gets and keeps butts in the pews. Most sects cannot stand only on their own credits.

 

[rusra02]

You mean like the Bible's "advice" that rape can be atoned for if the rapist buys his victim from her father?

Could you specify what you refer to with chapter and verse? Thanks

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Could you specify what you refer to with chapter and verse? Thanks

Deutoronomy 22:28-29:

28*“If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered,*29*then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl’s father fifty*shekels*of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Tying this back to the OP topic, here's the thing about proselytizing: I don't need to be a member of a religion to steal its good ideas, so trying to get me to convert to your religion is necessarily going to mean selling me on the parts of it that seem to me (at the moment, at least) either ambiguous or downright bad.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

28*“If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered,*29*then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl’s father fifty*shekels*of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days.

Virgin prices are a lot higher in modern times. Scarcity, I suppose.

 

[Tumah]

Jeebers, Pegg! Did it even work for the nation of Israel, or did they effective drop it? So much for the Bible's superior wisdom, eh?

I don't know if it matters, but, I don't think we dropped it.

 

[Sunstone]

I don't know if it matters, but, I don't think we dropped it.

So if a man rapes a woman, he must marry her still? Still?

 

[Tumah]

So if a man rapes a woman, he must marry her still? Still?

I don't know the details of which Laws can be enforced under which circumstances. For instance, to being with, without judicial power, we can't force anyone to do anything obviously.
But assuming today that all the necessary conditions were met to enforce the Laws, then sure. I mean unless the girl doesn't want to marry him.
At least, in Orthodox Judaism.

 

[rusra02]

Deutoronomy 22:28-29:

The verses in question do not use the word rape. I think It could have included rape and also consensual fornication. A girl being raped was required to scream and resist. In any case, the man would not be allowed to divorce her if the father insisted they be married. He would be required to pay the full bride price whether he was forced to marry the girl or not.
Judges in Israel could also administer a beating if the offense warranted this. (Deuteronomy 25:2,3) and in the case of an engaged girl, the rapist would be executed.