Proselytizing

[Alceste]

Didn't you hear Alceste!? You must suffer in this life so you can get to the next life

Sounds like a crappy deal. No thanks.

 

[ChristineES]

I see nothing wrong with praying as long as it includes action, as well. I see nothing wrong with proselytizing as long as the person being preached to wants it. There is nothing wrong with believing is something greater than ourselves, as long as we also live in the real world.

Most people of my faith believe in the above statements.

 

[Sunstone]

but you are only assuming that there is no God.

Whereas you are only assuming there is a god. And you are further only assuming that god is your God.

Whereas, God has actually presented himself and shown himself, and told us through 'many' people exactly who he is and what he wants.

And the "revelations" of your God have often enough been on the order of "Do not steal", which is common morality in most societies, to "Do not eat shellfish", which would appear a strange thing for a deity to concern itself with, to "Do not be a man who lies with other men", which would appear a detestable statement for a god to make.

If your god existed, why didn't he reveal how life evolved on this earth, what germs are and how to something about them, how harmless menstrual blood is, the health importance of proper sewers for those living in communities, and any thousand other things that would have improved human lives?

It may be an assumption that a god exists, but it's much less an assumption that your God has never existed.

So I dont believe its a false belief. I believe he is real and therefore I am living according to the truth whereas you may not be.

You believe on the basis of the unverified testimony of other people that your God exists, then you have the intellectual nerve to tell me your belief is certainly right and it's I who "may not be" living according to the truth. That's a pretty gutsy thing to say, Pegg. The most recent gutsy thing I saw, Pegg, was a squirrel coming down from a tree to play with a cat while perhaps thinking the cat wouldn't have him for supper. Guess what happened?

 

[roger1440]

This thread is directed mainly towards adherents of the two largest proselytizing religions, Christianity and Islam. But anyone else is welcome to join in.

First Question: In your view, is there a moral or other crucial difference between New Atheists like Harris, Dawkins, Hitchens, and PZ Meyers trying to convert folks to atheism, and theists like Pat Robertson, Billy or Franklin Graham, D. James Kennedy, and John Hagee trying to convert people to theism? (I apologize for not including any prominent Muslim proselytizers, but, in my ignorance, I don't know of any. Maybe someone can help me out with that?)

Second Question: Would it invoke a contradiction to answer "yes" to the first question? And if so, is there some way that contradiction can be resolved?

Third Question: What other thoughts do you have about proselytizing -- both by theists and nontheists?

I have nothing againest proselytizing as long as they keep it to themselves.

 

[Debater Slayer]

how can you have peace in a world where there is no peace?

Thats the big difference for me. I look at the world and all I feel is dread over what is happening...it actually affects me to see children starving, wars, diseases and all the pain and suffering that goes along with that. And to top it all off people are nasty and hateful and the environment is being destroyed by our 'so-called' progress.

How do you find peace when all that is happening?

I don't think preaching to people that a particular set of beliefs is the ultimate path to peace helps much with those problems you mentioned either. You seem to assume that no one can have peace without believing in your religion, but I see that as a completely inaccurate assumption.

Personally, I don't get hope from beliefs that teach they're the ultimate and only way I can be happy in this life or another one. I see much more hope for humanity when I think about how far we've come and how much we still have to explore, and all the sciences, culture, anthropology, and arts that exist now. That's more knowledge than one can study in a lifetime, so it seems to me that if there's any potential solution to humanity's problems, it's in exploring and expanding those fields of study and not in some conviction that believing in a particular religion will give one everlasting peace of mind.

 

[roger1440]

that the best sort of help you can give someone is knowledge, hope and reason.

Our work is focused primarily on bible education. And teaching people is far greater then throwing money at a problem.

"Give a man a fish and he'll eat for one night, teach him how to fish and he will eat for a lifetime" ( dont know who said it, but its a good proverb )

Lao Tzu, the Chinese founder of Taoism, 4th Century BC
Who said give a man a fish you feed him for a day teach a man to fish you feed him for life

 

[roger1440]

Oh nevermind. I googled "Pat Robertson romance movie vampire" got the name of the movie "twilight" and then googled "pat robertson actor twilight" and found the the person I was thinking of was Robert Pattinson. Apparently they are not the same person.

You are not from the United States are you?

 

[Pegg]

Whereas you are only assuming there is a god. And you are further only assuming that god is your God.

We have a written record of his dealings with mankind. The nation he formed (Isrealites) are still with us today. Every account in the bible that explains a given event can be seen in our world today, ie flood, division of languages, animosity between man and woman, the gravitation toward wrongdoing are some examples.

And with all this matter surrounding us in the universe, there is no way it could have arrived here on its own. The organization of matter could not have happened undirected. There is far too much physical evidence of a brilliant mind at work for me to believe it all just happened on its own.

If your god existed, why didn't he reveal how life evolved on this earth,

He did. He created the first of the 'kinds' and they went forth and reproduced into a great variety.

Gen 1:21*And God proceeded to create the great sea monsters and every living soul that moves about, which the waters swarmed forth according to their kinds, and every winged flying creature according to its kind. And God got to see that [it was] good. 22*With that God blessed them, saying: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the waters in the sea basins, and let the flying creatures become many in the earth.” 23*And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a fifth day. 24*And God went on to say: “Let the earth put forth living souls according to their kinds, domestic animal and moving animal and wild beast of the earth according to its kind.” And it came to be so.

what germs are and how to something about them

he told us to wash ourselves our hands, clothing, utensils and such:

Lev 11:39*“‘Now in case any beast that is YOURS for food should die, he who touches its dead body will be unclean until the evening. 40*And he who eats any of its dead body will wash his garments, and he must be unclean until the evening; and he who carries off its dead body will wash his garments, and he must be unclean until the evening.

Leviticus 15:4*“‘Any bed upon which the one having a running discharge may lie down will be unclean, and any article upon which he may sit will be unclean. 5*And a man who may touch his bed should wash his garments, and he must bathe in water and be unclean until the evening. ... 8*And in the case of the one who has a running discharge spitting upon someone clean, he must in that case wash his garments and bathe in water and be unclean until the evening. 9*And any saddle upon which the one having a running discharge was riding will be unclean. 10*And anyone touching anything that happens to be under him will be unclean until the evening; and he who carries them will wash his garments, and he must bathe in water and be unclean until the evening. 11*And anyone whom the one having a running discharge might touch when he has not rinsed his hands in water must then wash his garments and bathe in water and be unclean until the evening. 12*And an earthenware vessel that the one having a running discharge might touch should be smashed; and any wooden vessel should be rinsed with water.

, how harmless menstrual blood is

no blood is harmless. Blood carries any disease that the person has contracted...thats why doctors do blood tests to find what illness the person has.

the health importance of proper sewers for those living in communities,

He told us that too:

Deut 23:12*And a private place should be at your service outside the camp, and you must go out there. 13*And a peg should be at your service along with your implements, and it must occur that when you squat outside, you must also dig a hole with it and turn and cover your excrement

and any thousand other things that would have improved human lives?

and that he did, he gave us the proverbs which give us the best advice for keeping good relations with one another.

You believe on the basis of the unverified testimony of other people that your God exists, then you have the intellectual nerve to tell me your belief is certainly right and it's I who "may not be" living according to the truth. That's a pretty gutsy thing to say, Pegg. The most recent gutsy thing I saw, Pegg, was a squirrel coming down from a tree to play with a cat while perhaps thinking the cat wouldn't have him for supper. Guess what happened?

I wouldnt call the bible 'unverified'

There were at least 3 million Isrealites who came out of Egypt who all verified that Jehovah had acted in their behalf. Those 3 million are still remembered to day because of the testimony they gave and which we have in the form of the Hebrew scriptures.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

We have a written record of his dealings with mankind.

I used to invite JW proselytizers into my home sometimes. In their voices and mannerisms, I could sense huge confidence and readiness to instruct me. They knew the truth, and I was willing to listen.

Here's how it went:

Well, most of the Christian denominations, they have misunderstood the Word, but we have studied long and hard and reconciled all of the --

Wait. The Word? What do you mean by that?

I'm -- well, you know -- the Bible. You do believe in the Bible, right? So if you go back and read in Genesis where it says --

No.

No? What do you mean?

I mean that I've seen no particular reason to accept the Bible as the Word of God. Well, except that my parents and neighbors accept it, I mean.

What? You don't think the Bible -- I mean, you're saying that so far as this Word of God right here, you have questions about it?

No questions really. i just see no reason to consider it any different from any other book. Can you tell me why you think that God wrote it?

It was at this point that they fled, Pegg.

But maybe you can answer. Can you tell me why you assume that we have a written record of God's dealings with mankind?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

We have a written record of his dealings with mankind.

Lots of religions have written accounts of their deities.

The nation he formed (Isrealites) are still with us today.

The modern nation of Israel is largely a self-fulfilling prophecy: people who knew the Bible set out to create a country in line with what the Bible says. While it's remarkable as a human achievement, it no more requires a god than would be needed for me to fulfill a "prophecy" about what I'm going to have for breakfast tomorrow.

Every account in the bible that explains a given event can be seen in our world today, ie flood, division of languages, animosity between man and woman, the gravitation toward wrongdoing are some examples.

Lots of cultures have collections of just-so stories.

And with all this matter surrounding us in the universe, there is no way it could have arrived here on its own. The organization of matter could not have happened undirected.

You're using the argument from ignorance ("I can't understand how it could have happened, so it couldn't have happened"). It's bad reasoning.

There is far too much physical evidence of a brilliant mind at work for me to believe it all just happened on its own.

What do you consider to be the best evidence for design?

 

[Pegg]

I used to invite JW proselytizers into my home sometimes. In their voices and mannerisms, I could sense huge confidence and readiness to instruct me. They knew the truth, and I was willing to listen.

Here's how it went:

Well, most of the Christian denominations, they have misunderstood the Word, but we have studied long and hard and reconciled all of the --

Wait. The Word? What do you mean by that?

I'm -- well, you know -- the Bible. You do believe in the Bible, right? So if you go back and read in Genesis where it says --

No.

No? What do you mean?

I mean that I've seen no particular reason to accept the Bible as the Word of God. Well, except that my parents and neighbors accept it, I mean.

What? You don't think the Bible -- I mean, you're saying that so far as this Word of God right here, you have questions about it?

No questions really. i just see no reason to consider it any different from any other book. Can you tell me why you think that God wrote it?

It was at this point that they fled, Pegg.

But maybe you can answer. Can you tell me why you assume that we have a written record of God's dealings with mankind?

I love it when im asked this question because there is solid evidence that the bible is not just a book like any other.

There are 3 lines of evidence showing that the bible is from a higher source then man.

Scientific evidence
Prophetic evidence
Superior wisdom (ie its advice works in real life no matter what culture you are from)

each of these lines of evidences convinced me.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Superior wisdom (ie its advice works in real life no matter what culture you are from)

You mean like the Bible's "advice" that rape can be atoned for if the rapist buys his victim from her father?

 

[Pegg]

What do you consider to be the best evidence for design?

the laws of nature

what do you think would happen if just one of those laws was removed? Could we survive?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

the laws of nature

what do you think would happen if just one of those laws was removed? Could we survive?

What about them makes you think that they were designed?

 

[Pegg]

You mean like the Bible's "advice" that rape can be atoned for if the rapist buys his victim from her father?

you are talking about the mosaic law here...it applied to the nation of Isreal, not to all mankind.

 

[Pegg]

What about them makes you think that they were designed?

because the regularities of these laws are mathematically precise, universal, and tied together.... you cant have one without the other!

The real question we should be asking is how nature came so neatly packaged in this fashion? Can it really be attributed to random chance?

 

[sojourner]

Game, set, match.

Huh. You two haven't taken a real good look at my so-called "bank account," have you? Some entry-level positions that require no higher education pay more than what I make.

 

[sojourner]

Your quote is good but you failed to under stand it, in my opinion.

Teaching knowledge is different than teaching to seek knowledge. I isn't right to teach your own knowledge but it's right to teach people to search their own.

This ^^^ is one of the best posts in this thread. I would have frubaled it, but I find a caveat that needs to be expressed.

It is "right" to teach your knowledge. What isn't right is to teach your knowledge as the ONLY knowledge.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I love it when im asked this question because there is solid evidence that the bible is not just a book like any other.

There are 3 lines of evidence showing that the bible is from a higher source then man.

Scientific evidence
Prophetic evidence
Superior wisdom (ie its advice works in real life no matter what culture you are from)

each of these lines of evidences convinced me.

OK. But I've never seen any of that evidence which seemed the least bit convincing. In fact, the spirit of truth has led me to understand that the Bible is just another book worshipped by those who are unready to seek God on their own.

So I guess that's the end of our proselytizing session for now.

 

[roger1440]

because the regularities of these laws are mathematically precise, universal, and tied together.... you cant have one without the other!

The real question we should be asking is how nature came so neatly packaged in this fashion? Can it really be attributed to random chance?

There is no such thing as "random chance" in anything,