Proselytizing

[Pegg]

Would you describe what you mean by "spiritual fulfillment", Pegg? For something to be spiritual, would it necessarily require a belief in deity? And what, if anything, do you mean by "spiritual fulfillment" that an atheist, by virtue of being an atheist, simply cannot access.

admit it or not, but it is recognized that humans all have a spiritual need within. Its a need to connect to something greater then ourselves.

Now if Athiests want to take away a persons belief in something greater then ourselves, they should at least have an alternative. When you take something big out of your life, you need to replace it...otherwise you will be left with a void and that void can cause a person to feel lonely and depressed.

 

[Pegg]

yet atheist live happy fulfilling lives, and neither of you take into account that theism can be dangerous and unhealthy, at least from the antintheist perspective.

im not sure if thats true or not... i dont know if every atheist is truly happy and fulfilled.

I think there are 'things' that can give us temporary happiness and enjoyment and perhaps the atheists you speak of peruse such things and find contentment in them.

but the fact is that they still have something in their life that perhaps another person does not find happiness in. And all im saying is if you are going to go on a mission to convince them that their belief in a deity is false, then you should be willing to provide an alternative that fills the persons need.

 

[Pegg]

Who does this? Every prominent atheist I've ever read or heard hasn't just advocated atheism; they've advocated positive worldviews like skepticism or humanism, and then argued that these worldviews imply atheism.

i wouldnt call humanism a positive world view

to replace God with science is not upbuilding, it certainly doesnt fill the need to believe in something greater then ourselves nor does it inspire moral accountability

It was Richard Dawkins who recently said he was sexually abused as a child but it didnt do him any lasting harm! If this is this the sort of thinking that humanism inspires, then there is something very wrong with it.

 

[Alceste]

im not sure if thats true or not... i dont know if every atheist is truly happy and fulfilled.

I think there are 'things' that can give us temporary happiness and enjoyment and perhaps the atheists you speak of peruse such things and find contentment in them.

but the fact is that they still have something in their life that perhaps another person does not find happiness in. And all im saying is if you are going to go on a mission to convince them that their belief in a deity is false, then you should be willing to provide an alternative that fills the persons need.

I have lots. Curiosity. Wonder. Mystery. Faith in our ability to study the unknown until we truly understand it. The breathtaking beauty of nature. Compassion for my fellow sentient beings. A deep sense of being "at home in the universe". Liberation from having to follow nonsensical rules to avoid incurring the wrath of a psychotic God model. The enjoyment of sex. The open, fearless embrace of the whole of accumulated human knowledge, including philosophy and science. Freedom from conforming to gender stereotypes. The recognition of the reality of death making each moment of life feel infinitely more precious.

I could go on, but everybody is different. That's the whole point. If there's a "hole" after religion, there's a whole world of wonder and amazement one can fill it with, but the most valuable treasure of an irreligious life is that YOU decide what to fill yourself up with.

 

[SkylarHunter]

I think there are 'things' that can give us temporary happiness and enjoyment and perhaps the atheists you speak of peruse such things and find contentment in them.

but the fact is that they still have something in their life that perhaps another person does not find happiness in. And all im saying is if you are going to go on a mission to convince them that their belief in a deity is false, then you should be willing to provide an alternative that fills the persons need.

excellent point

 

[Sees]

i wouldnt call humanism a positive world view

to replace God with science is not upbuilding, it certainly doesnt fill the need to believe in something greater then ourselves nor does it inspire moral accountability

It was Richard Dawkins who recently said he was sexually abused as a child but it didnt do him any lasting harm! If this is this the sort of thinking that humanism inspires, then there is something very wrong with it.

Atheism and Humanism isn't what religious folks make it out to be.

You don't need to have belief, knowledge, or concepts in or of God/Gods/spirits to understand your connection with the rest of life and the universe..to see beauty and meaning and live with compassion. It's not necessary to cheapen atheism or humanism as a theist.

Would you say atheistic, humanistic Buddhist monks seem to struggle with a large void?

Human-being has always been teamwork, selfishness and cruelty doesn't depend on theology but more on the rest of your philosophy.

Don't you ever just suspend belief for a moment to experience and see without preconceptions?

 

[Pegg]

I have lots. Curiosity. Wonder. Mystery. Faith in our ability to study the unknown until we truly understand it. The breathtaking beauty of nature. Compassion for my fellow sentient beings. A deep sense of being "at home in the universe". Liberation from having to follow nonsensical rules to avoid incurring the wrath of a psychotic God model. The enjoyment of sex. The open, fearless embrace of the whole of accumulated human knowledge, including philosophy and science. Freedom from conforming to gender stereotypes. The recognition of the reality of death making each moment of life feel infinitely more precious.

I could go on, but everybody is different. That's the whole point. If there's a "hole" after religion, there's a whole world of wonder and amazement one can fill it with, but the most valuable treasure of an irreligious life is that YOU decide what to fill yourself up with.

do you really think that belief in a God nullifies any of what you speak of above?

I dont think any of those points you list are missed by people who believe in God...in fact, i would say that belief in God deepens ones appreciation for such things because he made them and hence they must have purpose and meaning.

apart from the aversion to rules and value placed on human knowledge, belief in God should heighten ones sense of appreciation and wonder for the world we live in. Because lets face it, if the world is simply a product of mindless evolution, then it really means very little, ie, its purposeless. But I for one am deeply awed by a sense of purpose...it makes me want to live forever.

 

[Pegg]

Atheism and Humanism isn't what religious folks make it out to be.

You don't need to have belief, knowledge, or concepts in or of God/Gods/spirits to understand your connection with the rest of life and the universe..to see beauty and meaning and live with compassion. It's not necessary to cheapen atheism or humanism as a theist.

Would you say atheistic, humanistic Buddhist monks seem to struggle with a large void?

Human-being has always been teamwork, selfishness and cruelty doesn't depend on theology but more on the rest of your philosophy.

Don't you ever just suspend belief for a moment to experience and see without preconceptions?

I dont think anyone really knows what buddhist monks on a personal level think and feel. Every person is an individual and who knows what goes on inside a persons head. It doenst matter what sort of uniform they wear... wearing it doesnt mean you suddenly are enlightened and live contented lives.

I've lived without belief and with belief... and i know I am much more happy and contented with belief.

 

[Iti oj]

im not sure if thats true or not... i dont know if every atheist is truly happy and fulfilled.

I think there are 'things' that can give us temporary happiness and enjoyment and perhaps the atheists you speak of peruse such things and find contentment in them.

but the fact is that they still have something in their life that perhaps another person does not find happiness in. And all im saying is if you are going to go on a mission to convince them that their belief in a deity is false, then you should be willing to provide an alternative that fills the persons need.

Humanism. Love, respect, compassion and understanding.

 

[Iti oj]

do you really think that belief in a God nullifies any of what you speak of above?

I dont think any of those points you list are missed by people who believe in God...in fact, i would say that belief in God deepens ones appreciation for such things because he made them and hence they must have purpose and meaning.

apart from the aversion to rules and value placed on human knowledge, belief in God should heighten ones sense of appreciation and wonder for the world we live in. Because lets face it, if the world is simply a product of mindless evolution, then it really means very little, ie, its purposeless. But I for one am deeply awed by a sense of purpose...it makes me want to live forever.

I disagree if we really are here for no reason at all it makesmy existance more special, I also find the world vastly more beautiful and my actions more meangfull.

 

[SkylarHunter]

I disagree if we really are here for no reason at all it makesmy existance more special, I also find the world vastly more beautiful and my actions more meangfull.

We really are all very different. I can't imagine how miserable I would be if I thought this is all there is: a world of violence and injustice where everything positive is only temporary and we live every day wondering if tomorrow those we love will still be here or if we won't become sick or lose everything in a natural disaster. I'm grateful for my faith because that's what helps me survive. Having said that, I'm glad you find your life meaningful, good for you.

 

[BSM1]

I see no difference between theistic proselytizers and anti-theist ones. Both tend to annoy me.

The most valid way to mission to others is to live out the love of Christ to them. By showing selfless love, compassion and care, you get people interested in what motivates you to be that way. Plus, it builds up respect for the religion you are representing and that also encourages people to look into it. It's like with Pope Francis and the many things he said and did this past year, I saw many comments from people who had left the Church saying that he is making them interested in coming back and people who aren't Catholic more interested in Catholicism.

Waving a Bible around and telling people they're sinners who need the Blood of Jesus is not very effective, especially in this day and age.

I agree with you first sentence, but by your last sentence I can tell you don't live in the Bible Belt. There a few rich red-necked preachers in this part of the world that prey on the religious ignorant by skillfully using this very technique.

BTW, is ex-communication a carrot or a stick in Catholicism?

 

[Quirkybird]

Waving a Bible around and telling people they're sinners who need the Blood of Jesus is not very effective, especially in this day and age.

Sadly there are some who still fall for that stupid nonsense!

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yeah, you guys are right. Many people do fall for it. But it's becoming less socially acceptable.

Excommunication is supposed to drive the person into repentance.

 

[Alceste]

do you really think that belief in a God nullifies any of what you speak of above?

I dont think any of those points you list are missed by people who believe in God...in fact, i would say that belief in God deepens ones appreciation for such things because he made them and hence they must have purpose and meaning.

apart from the aversion to rules and value placed on human knowledge, belief in God should heighten ones sense of appreciation and wonder for the world we live in. Because lets face it, if the world is simply a product of mindless evolution, then it really means very little, ie, its purposeless. But I for one am deeply awed by a sense of purpose...it makes me want to live forever.

There's nothing preventing a theist from experiencing any of those things, but at the same time every thing I listed I have at some point encountered at least one theist who lacked it, specifically because of their religious belief. The rejection of science and philosophy is a common one - shutting out whole categories of human knowledge, like geology and biology. In my friend's case, she wouldn't let her ten year old daughter read Harry Potter because they "warned her" at church. Phillip Pullman? Forget it. The only books she herself is willing to read are American evangelical books by the likes of Pat Robertson. She perceives all other writing as a threat to her family's faith.

That's one example. She's living with a far bigger "hole" in her life than anyone else I know: intentional, willful ignorance.

 

[Alceste]

I disagree if we really are here for no reason at all it makesmy existance more special, I also find the world vastly more beautiful and my actions more meangfull.

Likewise. Also, the reality of death is incredibly motivating to make the most of every moment of life. I have met the occasional theist who is simply marking the days until the apocalypse, or until they die and go to heaven. I find that sad - they're in for a really unpleasant surprise, IMO.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

admit it or not, but it is recognized that humans all have a spiritual need within. Its a need to connect to something greater then ourselves.

Now if Athiests want to take away a persons belief in something greater then ourselves, they should at least have an alternative. When you take something big out of your life, you need to replace it...otherwise you will be left with a void and that void can cause a person to feel lonely and depressed.

I believe in causes that are more important than me without deifying them. Is that the sort of thinv you're getting at?

 

[Sunstone]

admit it or not, but it is recognized that humans all have a spiritual need within. Its a need to connect to something greater then ourselves.

Now if Athiests want to take away a persons belief in something greater then ourselves, they should at least have an alternative. When you take something big out of your life, you need to replace it...otherwise you will be left with a void and that void can cause a person to feel lonely and depressed.

What do you mean by "something greater than ourselves", Pegg? God? If so, suppose god does not exist, and our need to connect to him is merely tragic? Would it be best then for us to ignore that he doesn't exist and try to connect to him anyway? Would that make for a good life? Or would such a life be a bit like trying to imagine you were the wife of a wonderful man when you were not even really married to anyone?

Wouldn't it be nobler to accept the truth and live it, than to conceive a lie and then try to live the lie?

 

[BSM1]

Excommunication is supposed to drive the person into repentance.

[/QUOTE]

Wouldn't you agree that this is merely Bible-waving to maybe a clientele with a slightly higher IQ?

 

[Sees]

I dont think anyone really knows what buddhist monks on a personal level think and feel. Every person is an individual and who knows what goes on inside a persons head. It doenst matter what sort of uniform they wear... wearing it doesnt mean you suddenly are enlightened and live contented lives.

I've lived without belief and with belief... and i know I am much more happy and contented with belief.

I'm not saying get rid of your beliefs but be able to see and experience with pure honesty, vulnerability and without preconceptions from time to time. Temporarily suspend what you know and believe about things for a moment. We get so caught up in our world-view that we paint it into other people's lives.

The greater than themselves for many is Mama Nature and mankind as a group. You don't have to know, understand, perceive, dream anything supernatural or paranormal or spiritual for this.

I believe in the divine and some other stuff my self but can see both ways moment to moment. You can't truthfully, honestly evaluate things if you force it to fit within what you already know or believe. Big differences between the way people do religion or irreligion.

Awe, wonder, deep peace, etc. doesn't depend on theology no matter how we poke at it. To see life as precious and melt into a beautiful scene with a group of people or out in nature doesn't need supernatural minds watching or giving a thumbs up.