Proselytizing

[Sunstone]

Not sure what you mean here. What sort of contradiction did you have in mind?

I was being sneaky. In the past, when I've asked questions like this one -- "is there a difference between theistic and atheistic proselytizing?" -- I've always gone on to ask, "Why or why not?" But so few people answer the second question. So I was trying to sneak up on them this time with my second question which, I thought, if they answered, would reveal the principle or reason behind their first answer. Tee hee. Of course, my plan has not worked any better than asking why or why not works. :sad:

 

[Sunstone]

FWIW: I've had people approach me on a few occasions but have never found them to be impolite or inattentive. Perhaps I've been lucky ...

I can only recall encountering one nasty proselytizer in my life. A rude, demanding woman who approached me at a county fair when I was eight, and who rudely demanded that I accept Jesus or burn in hell. She then rudely demanded a donation to further her ministry, so I'm not sure but whether she wasn't a scam.

But I have known a few others, and at least two who I spoke with at length. I wasn't impressed with the integrity of the sales pitch in either of those two cases, although they were polite enough.

In sum, I don't have much experience of being personally proselytized by door to door knock-artists. I've heard a lot of street corner "prophets" though, and I've been yelled at by a few of them. But then, I live in Colorado Springs.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I can only recall encountering one nasty proselytizer in my life.

I suspect that there is some generalization going on ...

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Q1: Depends on the viewer. However, in my mind, performing an act for no matter the standard, and if another performs that same act for another standard, they would be at a moral equilibrium.

 

[Sunstone]

I suspect that there is some generalization going on ...

Well, to my thinking, it seems likely that so many people object to prosyletizers largely on the same grounds so many people object to professional salespeople. Not because the prosyletizers fail to be polite and personable, but because their pitches tend to be one-sided and even perhaps manipulative.

Now, if you're talking what I call, "street corner prophets" -- that is, people who stand, usually on corners, and often enough yell their proselytizations at passers by -- then I've encountered at least a few of them, and they are typically rude and obnoxious in my experience. I remember one, a guy named Max, who wouldn't allow a young couple to pass him without pointing his bible at them and then shouting, "Don't take that young woman out of wedlock!"

 

[psychoslice]

I don't think atheist want to give or take anything away, they simply argue against the belief in a god, there is no proof of god and that is all they are saying, what they do with themselves or believe other than that is up to each individual.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I don't think atheist want to give or take anything away, they simply argue against the belief in a god, there is no proof of god and that is all they are saying, what they do with themselves or believe other than that is up to each individual.

Though it may seem otherwise to some, people under a label or in a group are often unlike each other. There are atheists out there I've seen that are definitely against religion, and most of the time they fall under the concept of Marxism.

Then, the more common, atheists who simply like to poke fun at religions, and some religious people will take it to heart and do not know the difference.

Don't worry, it works the same for theists as well.

 

[psychoslice]

Though it may seem otherwise to some, people under a label or in a group are often unlike each other. There are atheists out there I've seen that are definitely against religion, and most of the time they fall under the concept of Marxism.

Then, the more common, atheists who simply like to poke fun at religions, and some religious people will take it to heart and do not know the difference.

Don't worry, it works the same for theists as well.

Yes of course, but what I am saying is what an atheist is, the same as you will tell me what a christian or whatever religion is, what we all do other than that is up to us as individuals, non better than the others, its just an argument of belief and that is all.

 

[Vinayaka]

The worst prosyletizer in my life right now is my atheist brother. Every time he sees me he sees it as his duty to save me from my religion. He knows nothing at all about my religion, but he's still hell bent on saving me from it.

 

[Alceste]

Yes of course, but what I am saying is what an atheist is, the same as you will tell me what a christian or whatever religion is, what we all do other than that is up to us as individuals, non better than the others, its just an argument of belief and that is all.

I hear you, brother. It's fine with me for folks to believe whatever they want. But I also believe there is such a thing as a fact, and the only way to find one is through careful observation and critical thinking.

 

[psychoslice]

I hear you, brother. It's fine with me for folks to believe whatever they want. But I also believe there is such a thing as a fact, and the only way to find one is through careful observation and critical thinking.

Yes I certainly agree, that is why i don't have a belief in a god, because of careful observation.

 

[SkylarHunter]

Out of curiosity, how would you rate the information that proseltyzers have provided you with over the years? On a scale of from 1 to 5 with 1 being the least slanted or the least spun to 5 being the most slanted or the most spun. I mean, of course, in general. And for the sake of comparison, on he same scale, how would you rate the information you've found in Wikipedia?

~
It is a bit hard to rate because I talk to loads of people but I'll give you a few examples:
To the Mormon girl who approached me on the tram the other day I would give 4. She was very nice, came from the USA to France to talk to others about her beliefs and even bothered to learn some french. Although I don't share her beliefs I have to admire her courage and determination.
To the evangelic pastor who tried to convince me that God takes bad people to eternal punishment in fire (he couldn't tell me how bad they had to be) I give a 1. I have great respect for people who tell me they don't know the bible and are not interested but I can't stand those who are supposed to know what they are talking about.
To the Muslim guy who tried very hard to convert me I give a 2, not only I don't relate to anything he told me, I also can't stand the way they treat women.
To my best friend who has been trying to convince me for years that evolution makes some kind of sense I give 3. She was never able to find answers to my questions and I know they don't exist because I looked for them too so we just agreed to disagree (I love her anyway).
To the Jehovah's Witnesses I come across with, I general would give a 5 for their immense knowledge and for they way they always use the bible instead of their personal opinions.
It's a bit of a mix but I always enjoying talking to people who have different views from mine. Even if we don't always agree I always feel I gained something by talking to them.
P.S I check wickipedia for quick information and then look for other sources to back it up

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Well, to my thinking, it seems likely that so many people object to prosyletizers largely on the same grounds so many people object to professional salespeople. Not because the prosyletizers fail to be polite and personable, but because their pitches tend to be one-sided and even perhaps manipulative.

Imagine that you find yourself going door-to-door with a petition seeking to block an attempt to include "Intelligent Design" in your grandkids' textbooks. How one-sided would you be?

If one starts without as derisive contempt for theism and theology, it's fairly easy to respect many of those who actually walk the talk (no matter how much you might disagree with the talk). Through such a lens they may well appear more impassioned than manipulative. No?

 

[Alceste]

Imagine that you find yourself going door-to-door with a petition seeking to block an attempt to include "Intelligent Design" in your grandkids' textbooks. How one-sided would you be?

If one starts without as derisive contempt for theism and theology, it's fairly easy to respect many of those who actually walk the talk (no matter how much you might disagree with the talk). Through such a lens they may well appear more impassioned than manipulative. No?

I can respect theists and theism in general, but I sincerely do not understand why an impassioned Christian would be banging on my door to try to talk me into converting instead of helping the poor, sick and needy.

I do respect those who walk the talk, but I don't appreciate salespeople of any kind coming to my door. It's awkward and annoying. If I need a vacuum cleaner, a politician to vote for or a religion, I'm perfectly capable of finding it on my own.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I can respect theists and theism in general, but I sincerely do not understand why an impassioned Christian would be banging on my door to try to talk me into converting instead of helping the poor, sick and needy.

Perhaps they do both (and perhaps they were knocking, not banging).

 

[Alceste]

Perhaps they do both (and perhaps they were knocking, not banging).

Could be, but I was not under the impression that Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons did all that much of that kind of work. The Mennonites and the mainline protestants never visit.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I suspect that there is some generalization going on ...

What generalization? Since we've moved into our new house, 3 1/2 years ago, we've had approximately 30 or so religious proselytizers come to the door. This doesn't include the times I've encountered them while out walking the dog or to the mailbox. The proselytizers have primarily been Mormons, but have also included JW's, as well as people from a few Christian denominations from local churches.

I'm always civil, polite, and friendly when I answer the door. When they start their spiel, I inform them that I'm not interested, and wish them a good day. On perhaps two or three occassions, the proselytizer left at this point. In my book, any continued proselytizing at this point is already pushy and rude. On at least 10 occassions, I eventually had to physically close the door in the person's face after several attempts at telling them I wasn't interested.

Now, they almost always keep a smile and a friendly demeanor. But, when someone tells you "no thanks, have a good day," and you don't leave and keep talking, you're being rude. I realize other people may be confused by the smiles and not realize the person is being rude.

Now, to be fair, I've had similiar experiences with the people who walk around trying to sell new windows and security systems.

 

[Alceste]

What generalization? Since we've moved into our new house, 3 1/2 years ago, we've had approximately 30 or so religious proselytizers come to the door. This doesn't include the times I've encountered them while out walking the dog or to the mailbox. The proselytizers have primarily been Mormons, but have also included JW's, as well as people from a few Christian denominations from local churches.

I'm always civil, polite, and friendly when I answer the door. When they start their spiel, I inform them that I'm not interested, and wish them a good day. On perhaps two or three occassions, the proselytizer left at this point. In my book, any continued proselytizing at this point is already pushy and rude. On at least 10 occassions, I eventually had to physically close the door in the person's face after several attempts at telling them I wasn't interested.

Now, they almost always keep a smile and a friendly demeanor. But, when someone tells you "no thanks, have a good day," and you don't leave and keep talking, you're being rude. I realize other people may be confused by the smiles and not realize the person is being rude.

Now, to be fair, I've had similiar experiences with the people who walk around trying to sell new windows and security systems.

Yeah, I hear you. JW's came to a house where I was a nanny once and wouldn't leave. I told them it was not my house, not my kids, and that I was not interested. They started asking personal questions about the parents' schedule instead of leaving, and also kept looking at the kids with an expression that I can only describe as hungry. I did have to shut the door in their faces and I spent the rest of the day totally creeped out by the way they looked at the girls. I was only worried they were gonna try to get at the kids while my back was turned and start talking about their religion, but that's bad enough.

 

[ChristineES]

I only agree with proselytizing if the person being proselytized to wants it. If you are trying to convert someone against their will, then that is wrong- and even Jesus said as much.

 

[Sunstone]

Imagine that you find yourself going door-to-door with a petition seeking to block an attempt to include "Intelligent Design" in your grandkids' textbooks. How one-sided would you be?

Factually? Cautiously qualified, but fairly one-sided, I'd think. Yet, I don't know how emotionally manipulative I'd be. I can't think of something as manipulative as telling someone they are going to burn in hell that I would say to persuade someone to sign a petition to block intelligent design.

If one starts without as derisive contempt for theism and theology, it's fairly easy to respect many of those who actually walk the talk (no matter how much you might disagree with the talk). Through such a lens they may well appear more impassioned than manipulative. No?

I think respect and distaste might be two different things here. I agree with you that we should respect proselytizers, just as we would respect anyone else. But I'm not sure we should bury our distaste for them, if that's what we really feel. I suspect you and I might agree, though, that religious proselytizers are sometimes, or even often, selected out for more condemnation than other salespeople who are doing much the same thing, and that selecting them out seems prejudicial.