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Prostitution Argument (continued from “Iceland to ban porn on the web because of children”)

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
Especially MMA, boxing, kick-boxing, etc. Obviously, those don't represent doing something that's typically illegal. ;)

And certainly we can forget about soldiering as a profession even though its probably the 2nd oldest profession. Firemen break into people's houses. Demolition workers bomb commercial buildings. The list goes on.

But Sir Doom, sex is special and sacred and should be shared by two people who really really love each other. Soldiering and being cops and firemen are things boys should aspire to.

Why do you hate America?
 

Sir Doom

Cooler than most of you
But Sir Doom, sex is special and sacred and should be shared by two people who really really love each other. Soldiering and being cops and firemen are things boys should aspire to.

Why do you hate America?

BUT I REALLY REALLY LOVE PROSTITUTES!!!!!

J/k, I would never hire one. But that's only because I'm charming and handsome. Oh and also because I'm mostly broke all the time. :cool:
 

dust1n

Zindīq
This can only become a problem if it’s allowed to.

The fact that %81 of legal prostitutes want to escape the business if it's allowed to can only become a problem if it's allowed?

Can you point me to any region in the world where legalization and regulation of brothels or non-brothels have yielded more good than harm? If there isn't any, than why are these countries all suffering the problems? Are they all allowing it to?

If legal brothels are being used for child trafficking, drug abuse etc then you have a problem with enforcement of the law, not the concept of the brothels themselves.

Well, one can expect a certain amount of difficultly due solely to the nature of the profession, but yes, there are problems with enforcement of the law.


The problem here is you’re talking about two different things. There’s no reason for a perfectly acceptable activity like prostitution to be banned because of a statistical link between it and something that’s obviously a crime. It’s akin to banning tobacco because of a correlation between smoking cigarettes and smoking illegal drugs.

Well, I guess we'd have to disagree. I think it's perfectly acceptable to ban prostitution if it is strongly correlated with so many other crimes.



Enforcing STI checks on the prostitutes is not at all difficult. If they work there, it’s an employment condition that they get tested on a continual basis. If they refuse they don’t get work, simple as that. Testing all the johns is obviously impractical at least for now; all you can do is enforce condom usage.

Indeed, leaving prostitutes at the highest risk of danger will protecting john's.

Like most new businesses it requires a large initial investment with the hope that it’ll turn a profit later on. I don’t expect that to be a problem for governments though.

Why wouldn't it be a problem? The brothels end up costing more to regulate than do in bringing in tax money as it is. I guess a government-ran brothel might be better equipped to pull in money for the state, but since there has never been example of this, I can't really comment on it.

"Some subscribe to the myth that legal brothel prostitution keeps economically strapped rural counties afloat. Others have challenged that assumption with evidence from county budgets. Former Nye County Commissioner Trummell said, “Many people believe the brothels contribute significantly to our economy, but they don't. We have six brothels and we receive a total of $180,000 in fees.” Trummell estimated that the total 2005 brothel revenue was less than 1% of the entire county budget.
Similar observations have been made in other Nevada counties with legal prostitution. According to Churchill county newspaper editor Josh Johnson: the county Comptroller found that in 2004, “the cost of related law enforcement expenses exceeded revenue obtained from prostitution. The county was, in fact, subsidizing the industry…” Josh Johnson (2007) Legal Prostitution is an Antiquated Joke. Lahontan Valley News and Eagle Standard. April 7, 2007. Retrieved July 27, 2007 from Legal prostitution is an antiquated joke | LahontanValleyNews.com.

Brothels are legal in Churchill County but none have been in operation since 2004.

Furthermore, the income generated from fees and licenses in Nye County did not appear to cover the expenses of regulating the brothels. Nye County Sheriff Anthony De Meo said he needed 30 more deputies in 2005 just to keep up with the crime in the county and in order to sufficiently regulate the brothels. De Meo said he would need to hire an additional 2 full time investigators as well. (Nye County Nevada May Outlaw Prostitution (2005) Retrieved March 12, 2007 from http://www.swop-usa.org/news/NyeCounty.php.)

http://www.prostitutionresearch.com...eids_Opposing_Legal_Brothels 2-24-11_11am.pdf


I don’t see that it would have any effect on trafficking, but that’s not the point of legislating for it. I don’t believe banning things that are perfectly acceptable in order to minimise something that isn’t is the way to go. We should be going after the people that are causing the harm.

Everyone is going after the people that are causing the harm.. whether prostitution is legal or not. And there is so much evidence that legalization has increased sex trafficking including children in every European nation (and some non European nations) that have implemented legalization of prostituion. The problems have also been found in legal brothels.

If there is a way to minimize the harm through policy before even attacking the second largest illegal market in the world, it should be taken, and then steps attacking the second largest illegal industry in the world will be more effective, meet less resistance, result in the least amount of cases of sex slavery, etc.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
But Sir Doom, sex is special and sacred and should be shared by two people who really really love each other.

I don't know about that. But it is special enough that when the average American prostitute enters the business between 13-14, it is hardly reasonable to say that a very a large portion of these ladies are hardly giving rational consent we usually prescribe to various sexual relations. I fail to see how this fact can be attributed to the 'illegalization' when child sex slavery has online risen in countries that have legalized prostitution.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
I'm going to be stepping out this discussion soon anyway. I've been through these hundred page prostitution arguments and they remain virtually the same, it gets kinda tiresome, especially when I have other 20,000 word arguments to respond to elsewhere.

The data is short and there is not enough research yet to make the best conclusions in the world.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
FWIW, regarding legalized prostitution in Amsterdam
"The 70-year-old twin sisters Louise and Martine Fokkens, who have worked for decades as prostitutes in the red light districts of Amsterdam, were the subject of a 2011 film and a 2012 book. In a 2012 interview* they complained that the legalization of 2000 had lead to more criminality and to taxation of the trade."
source
*The 2012 interview HERE
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
FWIW, regarding legalized prostitution in Amsterdam
"The 70-year-old twin sisters Louise and Martine Fokkens, who have worked for decades as prostitutes in the red light districts of Amsterdam, were the subject of a 2011 film and a 2012 book. In a 2012 interview* they complained that the legalization of 2000 had lead to more criminality and to taxation of the trade."
source
*The 2012 interview HERE
We are facing a revenue shortage, & here is a new source.
 
The fact is, people don't like the fact, that people have been coerced or forced in to the situation. People don't like to coerce or force anyone. It appears, people might genuinely feel, that it was wrong of them to do so, and don't want to, if others knew of it. I mean, perhaps no one likes to not feel that they cannot make a person feel disadvantaged due to gender. Men have gender, so do women. It appears, that men and women are not aware of gender, organically, that is why they identify each other as different sexes. This seems to be the most basic identification, of function. This identification is being regarded differently, and not regarded as everyone would like, perhaps. Women are being told, that you can commercialise your being, and there is no need for any interaction, after the transaction. I mean, a commercial sex worker, is unpleasant to emote with, because she or he says, that it is not required, by profession, as it is not an obligation. The moot point is, is the client of the commercial justified, in this situation, in any profession? Yes, it would seem. Even in the economy, people identify socially with families. Commercial sex workers don't identify with families, except perhaps their offspring. The idea seems to be, women who are respected by men, even when men see differences which are the most organic to perception, are being disregarded sometimes, for this very reason. The reason why men see a basic difference between men and women, is the reason why women are regarded and revered in societies. Men actually say, you are different from me, and I regard you for that, and respect you, and that is your safety. This is not actually, what we see mirrored in society, it would seem.
 

Wherenextcolumbus

Well-Known Member
I don't know about that. But it is special enough that when the average American prostitute enters the business between 13-14, it is hardly reasonable to say that a very a large portion of these ladies are hardly giving rational consent we usually prescribe to various sexual relations. I fail to see how this fact can be attributed to the 'illegalization' when child sex slavery has online risen in countries that have legalized prostitution.

And then once they become 18 their rapes don't matter anymore because they are 18 now and legal and it's their choice.
 

Wherenextcolumbus

Well-Known Member
I'm going to be stepping out this discussion soon anyway. I've been through these hundred page prostitution arguments and they remain virtually the same, it gets kinda tiresome, especially when I have other 20,000 word arguments to respond to elsewhere.

The data is short and there is not enough research yet to make the best conclusions in the world.

Basically Dust what you need to understand is that the face of prostitution is a middle class white classy Dita Von Teese type woman, making lots of money and living a glamourous lifestyle, forget about all the other women because its the middle class white woman's choice, and it's all about her freedom.
 

McBell

Unbound
And then once they become 18 their rapes don't matter anymore because they are 18 now and legal and it's their choice.
yes, because once a woman turns 18 years old she cannot be raped...

:rolleyes:


Pardon me whilst I go fetch my chest waders...
 

Wherenextcolumbus

Well-Known Member
But Sir Doom, sex is special and sacred and should be shared by two people who really really love each other. Soldiering and being cops and firemen are things boys should aspire to.

Why do you hate America?

No one spoke about LOVE!? between two people being the only acceptable situation in which people have sex. No one here placed themselves on a pedastal acting like they are Virgin frigging Mary. There are plenty of anti sex industry activists who have been prostitutes and porn stars and are not virgin until married.
For all you know the people here who are criticising the sex industry have had lots of casual sex and in no way are they trying to say they are better people than prostitutes. We are talking about rape and abuse here which yes is different!
 

Wherenextcolumbus

Well-Known Member
yes, because once a woman turns 18 years old she cannot be raped...

:rolleyes:


Pardon me whilst I go fetch my chest waders...

No you don't understand she is an adult and choosing to have sex for money now. yes she was raped to start off with but even after that as an adult she still chose to stay in the "profession" it can't be rape if she chose it after 18. Forget that she was poor and underage to start of with, now she is making a meaningful choice.
 

Zoe Doidge

Basically a Goddess
The fact that %81 of legal prostitutes want to escape the business if it's allowed to can only become a problem if it's allowed?

If they can’t escape legal prostitution then the removal (or non-existence) of legal prostitution means they’ll be forced into illegal prostitution because they have no other option. It’s a worse situation no matter how you look at it, although you might at least be hiding that fact from public eyes due to a complete lack of accountability in illegal prostitution.

Can you point me to any region in the world where legalization and regulation of brothels or non-brothels have yielded more good than harm? If there isn't any, than why are these countries all suffering the problems? Are they all allowing it to?

It’s evidentially low enough on their priorities list that they are failing to tackle the issue. As stated though, I see legislation as being justified simply because it’s the right thing to do. I don’t see the justice in doing this kind of good/harm risk assessment and using the conclusions to deny people their rights.

Well, one can expect a certain amount of difficultly due solely to the nature of the profession, but yes, there are problems with enforcement of the law.

A lot of these problems could be effectively taken care of by undercover investigations. For example, have underage girls apply every now and then to try and get a job. This would be an easy test of whether or not they’re doing proper age checks. Use undercover johns to check that security is on the ball, that the prostitutes refuse illegal requests etc (basically the equivalent of a mystery shopper in retail).

Well, I guess we'd have to disagree. I think it's perfectly acceptable to ban prostitution if it is strongly correlated with so many other crimes.

So is alcohol consumption, sex before marriage and likely a whole range of things that we’d consider perfectly acceptable as long as it’s done with a reasonable amount of common sense.

Indeed, leaving prostitutes at the highest risk of danger will protecting john's.

I’d argue that no matter how high the risk is its still got to be better than illegal prostitution. You cannot eliminate the risk of STI’s, but you can attempt to mitigate it.

Why wouldn't it be a problem? The brothels end up costing more to regulate than do in bringing in tax money as it is. I guess a government-ran brothel might be better equipped to pull in money for the state, but since there has never been example of this, I can't really comment on it.

Well privately owned brothels aren’t in it to bring in tax money; they’re in it to make money for them. Only a fraction of their actual profits would go to the government. If the government owns it they’re obviously going to end up getting a much bigger slice.

Everyone is going after the people that are causing the harm.. whether prostitution is legal or not. And there is so much evidence that legalization has increased sex trafficking including children in every European nation (and some non European nations) that have implemented legalization of prostituion. The problems have also been found in legal brothels.

If there is a way to minimize the harm through policy before even attacking the second largest illegal market in the world, it should be taken, and then steps attacking the second largest illegal industry in the world will be more effective, meet less resistance, result in the least amount of cases of sex slavery, etc.

That’s a good example of giving up liberty in exchange for security.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Zoie Dodge said:
I’d argue that no matter how high the risk is its still got to be better than illegal prostitution. You cannot eliminate the risk of STI’s, but you can attempt to mitigate it.
I'm forced to agree; but you must mitigate the effects of prostitution properly. Doing it the wrong way will be worse than doing nothing. Taxing prostitution is unethical and will undermine efforts to stop child trafficking. If you tax the sex worker you can forget about having a positive impact.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
If we are going to treat prostitution as any other job than why not tax it? It's the same as any other profession right?
Yes! Integrate them with other commerce, & let the light of legitimacy prevent abuses.
(We need the tax revenue.) Regulation can be useful to prevent STD transmission, underage workers, workplace violence, etc.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
We cannot treat it as a job; because it is different. We currently don't have anything in the laws to model it after. Legally to define it you've got to start over using it as a basic definition rather than a type of something else. It cannot be described as a job. As a job it would be unethical, and so the courts would overturn it. Its more like a right, and taxing it would infringe the right.
 
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