Protestant and Catholic theological differences.

[metis]

Yes the terminology is mine and means that is someone came to the Catholic Church to be baptised as a Catholic there would be "ex cathedra" proclamations that would have to be believed (on top of the gospel message) for that person to be baptised into the CC.

Since I've worked with converts coming into the Church for 15 years now [aka the RCIA program], I can tell you point blank that the standard procure is for them to believe and accept the Nicene Creed, which doesn't include one word about ex cathedra. This procedure is established by the United States Council of Catholic Bishops and they are answerable to the Vatican.

 

[pearl]

Yes the terminology is mine and means that is someone came to the Catholic Church to be baptised as a Catholic there would be "ex cathedra" proclamations that would have to be believed (on top of the gospel message) for that person to be baptised into the CC. These ex cathedra proclamations are dogmas iow and must be believed as far as I am aware.

A couple of things. If an adult convert to the CC had already been baptized in Christ, there is no baptism required to become a member of the Catholic Church. One is not baptized a Catholic, but baptized in Christ, which is required for membership into the Catholic Communion.

 

[Dogknox20]

A couple of things. If an adult convert to the CC had already been baptized in Christ, there is no baptism required to become a member of the Catholic Church. One is not baptized a Catholic, but baptized in Christ, which is required for membership into the Catholic Communion.

pcarl Baptism IMMERSES us into the Body of Christ.. "The Church"!
3000 were ADDED to the Catholic Church the first day of Pentecost by Baptism! Scriptures are clear... Church baptizes Peter IMMERSED 3000 into the Church! No one ca baptize themselves! No one can be born then re-born. Born into the family the Church....then walking out as the Protesting De-Formers did does not mean they are not born, it means they turned their back on the family! IF...
pcarl if they were to come back to the Family; the body of Christ they do not need to be "Born again" they need to repent!
40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

pcarl ... were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

 

[pearl]

3000 were ADDED to the Catholic Church

At the time of Pentecost there was no Catholic Church as the term is understood today. Furthermore; from the CCC
1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."81 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."82
An indelible spiritual mark . . .

1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation.83 Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.

from the Creed
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

 

[Dogknox20]

At the time of Pentecost there was no Catholic Church as the term is understood today. Furthermore; from the CCC
1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."81 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."82
An indelible spiritual mark . . .

1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation.83 Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.

from the Creed
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

pcarl Thank you for your post.. I reply.. Yes I agree... the CCC is right... though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church..... therefore have a right to be called Christians...INDELIBLE!

IMMERSED INTO the Catholic Church Incorporated into Christ by Baptism YES! But not repeated!
These protester that were IMMERSED into the Body of Christ "By Baptism" PROTESTED against the Body and left his One Holy Catholic Apostolic body they left the body of Jesus! Baptism cannot be repeated it is INDELIBLE!
The early Church was the Catholic Church.. NONE OTHER The early Church ate EURCRIST.. The Flesh of Jesus! The early Church had Bishops with AUTHORITY to teach and command men! The Early Church had heritage going back to the Apostles! The Early Church Baptized Infants! The Early Church removed sins by confession to the Bishop in Church! The Early Church called it's self "Catholic!" Just as the Catholic Church still does today!
There was NO other churches except the Catholic Church if you disagree name another! All the churches named in the scriptures were UNITED as ONE! All are the Body of Jesus all are UNAVERSIL! NOT ONE believed in Scriptures ALONE not one believed in Faith ALONE! Not one said communion was symbolic! Not one rejected the authority of the elders!
pcarl If you disagree then toss your bible out your stinking window.... To reject the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church you MUST also reject her works! You MUST reject the idea the Catholic Church had help in deciding the inspired words of God from the Holy Spirit!
pcarl Did the Holy Spirit help the Catholic Church in deciding the inspired words of God.. Y N!?
pcarl If the Holy Spirit did in fact help her in the making of the bible then She MUST be the ONE Church Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide into all truth!.... Sent FOREVER to his One Church!
She MUST be the Church Jesus referred to when he said.. "If they hear you they hear me, if they reject you they reject me and God!" NO OTHERR!

 

[thomas t]

"For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church

No communion.
I don't belong to your church and you don't get to tell me that your pope is my leader. He isn't. Neither perfectly nor imperfectly.
I trust Bible, but I never trust the pope when the CC openly admitted to resorting to extrabiblical teachings...

Those who are baptised in Christ... are incorporated in the body of Jesus.
This doesn't mean they are Catholic, though.. even if the Catholics made the Bible.

edited, added last paragraph.

 

[Brian2]

But it was an "institution" created by Christ and his apostles whom appointed successors to form the "one body", as Paul claimed it to be.

The word "church" is used 109 times in the NT, and the only reference to it being used in the plural is when it was referring to local churches in affiliation as being part of that "one body". This is why Paul had to meet with the Twelve periodically so as to make certain they were on the same page.

And it was this same "one body" that chose the canon of the Bible in the 4th century that you use. The Bible did not choose itself, and the debate over which books were to be included was quite contentious, and it took over 1/2 a century to conclude it.

I have no problem with the Church having chosen the canon of scripture even if I have not accepted that full OT canon of the RC and accept the Protestant one which is the same as the Jewish canon.
I hear that the word translated as "church" in the NT is a word that more appropriately should be translated as "community" or some such word. I hear it was translated as "church" because that was forced on the translators at some stage by the institutional church.
I see the church as those who are joined to Christ, whether they be RC or whatever denomination. We are truly joined spiritually to Jesus and He directs us corporately and individually. This is the theory but does not work 100% because most of us are not listening to Jesus very well and we are being perfected into that unity as John 17:23 tells us.

 

[Brian2]

What I have found is that God doesn't feel responsible for my views of the bible. All of my life, ever since I was twelve, I struggled to understand the things I had read in its books. No one could help me. I prayed for a better understanding of the gospel, of the relationship between God and Jesus. I wanted to know why the churches had made such terrible mistakes and why I was stuck researching the meaning in this book. How did God respond to my begging? First of all had all, I was unworthy to be given such a high calling. I was a pompous little ****. If God had responded by revealing so much truth to me I would only have hurt myself and others. So instead I was on a long, stupid journey to find out my own faults and to have a miserable life.

It sort of sounds like my journey also. But I have gradually been shown more of the meaning of the Bible and been shown many of my faults, some of which I have had to accept, at this stage at least. We certainly learn humility this way and understanding of others and probably an ability not to be as judgemental as we may have been in the past.

 

[Brian2]

Brian2 thank you for your post... I reply.. To your words... and to open the Bible for all people. It is just this "The bible being the ONLY way" results in the many thousands of protesting churches all claiming to have the only truth but not even two of these thousands believe the same things, the "Bible Alone" it the root cause of all the chaos! Satan is the father of Chaos not God!

Brian2 The Catholic Church was built by Jesus no other church was built on ROCK! Jesus tells us.. "Listen to the Church or be treated as a pagan" a Pagan is OUTSIDE of God' family! Jesus tells us in the bible.. "He who hears you hears me, he who rejects you.. (Protests against you) rejects me and God!"
The early Church ate the Flesh of Jesus "Eucharist" the Catholic Church still does today!
The Church Jesus established "Baptized infants" the Catholic Church still does today!
The Early Church "removed or retained sins" guess what the One Church Jesus established still does to this day! The fact is: The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church was formed long before the bible this Book; the Bible is the work of the Catholic Church! You have to accept the Catholic Church was guided by the Holy Spirit in deciding the inspired letters or toss your bible out the window if you Protest against her!
There were NO bibles of any great number for the first 1700 years... It was the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church Jesus established that brought Jesus and salvation to the world! She PREACHED Jesus to the world! Even the bible was available most people could not read, they needed to be TAUGH about Jesus so much for "Bible Alone"!
People started to learn to read because it was the Catholic Church that started the schools and University in Europe! It was the Catholic Church that started Orphanages it was the Catholic Church that people went to for help it was not the government, she was the welfare for the people! By far the Catholic Church is the largest charity in the world today.

I do not deny that the Catholic Church was 'one' of the only Christian institutions in the world for a long time. Now there is more than one and the Catholic Church on the whole has realised this and that we are all joined as Christians.
The Institution of the Catholic Church did not start in the first century imo. but Christians in the Church did a good job of carrying it through for a long time without too much shame, but imo it did go off track with some teachings and practices and did need reforming, and this reforming took more than just pointing things out to the hierarchy of the CC.
It is sad that you believe what you said above, it seems to mean that you think that Protestants are not Christians.
It is also sad that when the Bible was first being published for the common man the Catholic Church was trying to stop that and that resulted in deaths of some publishers and printers.
Jesus did teach that tares were going to be planted in with the wheat and it is sad that fighting against that has meant the establishment of many, many denominations. I guess it was a good thing that Jesus said to the angel not to take out the tares lest he ended up also taking the wheat along with the tares.
I don't know however whether this means all Protestants should return to the RC.

 

[Brian2]

Since I've worked with converts coming into the Church for 15 years now [aka the RCIA program], I can tell you point blank that the standard procure is for them to believe and accept the Nicene Creed, which doesn't include one word about ex cathedra. This procedure is established by the United States Council of Catholic Bishops and they are answerable to the Vatican.

Maybe the Ex cathedra being necessary was of my own reasoning then since it means that the teaching was infallible and became dogma that cannot be revoked. I guess I wouldn't want to join an institution where I don't believe all the dogmas, especially if they are extra biblical, even if not strictly against the teachings of the Bible as interpreted by the RCC.
Personally I think that the ex cathedra teachings could be revoked if the Catholic Church revoked the ex cathedra doctrine.

 

[pearl]

These protester that were IMMERSED into the Body of Christ "By Baptism" PROTESTED against the Body and left his One Holy Catholic Apostolic body they left the body of Jesus! Baptism cannot be repeated it is INDELIBLE!

They did not leave the body of Christ, therefore they remain Christians, baptized once and for all into the body of Christ. Apparently, you do not give to the present Church the acknowledgement that it pronounces with the same teaching authority as did Trent. There is one Catholic Church.

 

[pearl]

I don't belong to your church and you don't get to tell me that your pope is my leader. He isn't. Neither perfectly nor imperfectly.

If you were baptized into Christ the CC recognizes your membership in the Body of Christ. Nothing to do with a pope.

Those who are baptised in Christ... are incorporated in the body of Jesus.

You are arguing with yourself.

 

[metis]

I hear that the word translated as "church" in the NT is a word that more appropriately should be translated as "community" or some such word.

Correct.

But we also have to remember that Paul refers to this "Community" as being of "one body", and we see in the gospels that Jesus created this "one body" with the appointing of the Twelve and giving power to them to lead his "Community" as being his "one body". Jesus "taught with authority", as did the Twelve, and as did their appointees.

Therefore, the "Community" was never considered a "just do your own thing" entity, which is also why the canon of the Bible was formed by this same "Community" in the 4th century as a continuation of that authority.

I see the church as those who are joined to Christ, whether they be RC or whatever denomination.

It is not my role, nor the "Community's" role, to determine one's fate with God, but it is the "Community's" role to lead and make decisions over time, which is what literally all churches do anyway. We view that people in other denominations are brothers & sisters in
Christ, but we don't judge others that may be in other religions or are atheists because that's God's role. After all, they were and are from God as well, ioo.

 

[metis]

I guess I wouldn't want to join an institution where I don't believe all the dogmas, especially if they are extra biblical, even if not strictly against the teachings of the Bible as interpreted by the RCC.

So, your church has no "teachings" beyond what's word-for-word in the Bible? If that's truly the case, why even belong to the church? Maybe just sit home with your Bible in hand and relax, and then just imagine on how much money you'll save? Now, seriously, I'm certainly not recommending you do that.

Personally I think that the ex cathedra teachings could be revoked if the Catholic Church revoked the ex cathedra doctrine.

Why are you trying to dictate what we teach? I assume you don't attend mass, so why are you being so condescending in telling us what we must supposedly believe and teach?

As far as the "ex cathedra" concept is concerned, I have no clue whether it is entirely correct, partially correct, or entirely wrong, nor is my Catholic faith contingent on accepting it.

I guess I wouldn't want to join an institution where I don't believe all the dogmas, especially if they are extra biblical, even if not strictly against the teachings of the Bible as interpreted by the RCC.

The CC is not the Gestapo, therefore, even though you seemingly have some sort of weird concept of the Church especially after I explained that we have the right of personal discernment, you seem intent on twisting what we actually do teach.

Personally I think that the ex cathedra teachings could be revoked if the Catholic Church revoked the ex cathedra doctrine.

Personally, I think you should maybe be more into about what your own church teaches. We don't tell you what your church/denomination must supposedly teach as that's none of our business.

In over 50 years of attending mass, never once did I ever hear a bishop or priest criticize Protestantism. It's too bad that we aren't treated with the same kind of respect that we now treat you.

BTW, I say "now" above as it wasn't always this way with the Church throughout all of our history, which I make no excuse for.

 

[Dogknox20]

No communion.
I don't belong to your church and you don't get to tell me that your pope is my leader. He isn't. Neither perfectly nor imperfectly.
I trust Bible, but I never trust the pope when the CC openly admitted to resorting to extrabiblical teachings...

Those who are baptised in Christ... are incorporated in the body of Jesus.
This doesn't mean they are Catholic, though.. even if the Catholics made the Bible.

edited, added last paragraph.

thomas t You trust your bible IS in fact the inspired words of God? FACT: The Catholic Church decided with the help of the Holy Spirit what was inspired and what was not inspired words of God then she put all the inspired letters into her book she named "The Bible"! If the Holy Spirit did in fact help the Catholic Church in the making of the bible then: She MUST be the ONE Church Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide into all truth!...............
John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
QUESTION 1... Did the Holy Spirit help the Church in deciding what was truly inspired? Yes or No!
thomas t If NO then how can you trust your bible is in fact the inspired words of God?! Toss it out your stinking window!

Sent FOREVER to his One Church!
John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever
QUESTION 2.. If the Holy Spirit helped in deciding the inspired words of God then he MUST still be FOREVER with the same church! Yes or No?

thomas t You say you are in Christ?
John 15:6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
Arius was a CATHOLIC he did not remain IN the Body of Jesus he was removed as a False Teacher!

Clearly there are those who leave the Body of Jesus! Martin Luther is another who was removed as a False Teacher he started the TRADITION of (paraphrase) "Man does not need the stinking church all we need is the scriptures ALONE!"
The Holy Catholic Church MUST be the Church Jesus referred to when he said.. "If they hear you they hear me, if they reject you they reject me and God!" NO OTHER can be the One Church Jesus built on ROCK.. Not on sand! On ROCK thus it will never ever fall!

thomas t Please answer the two questions (above) I wait for your answers!

 

[thomas t]

I think I am in Christ, but I'm not in the Catholic Church.

thomas t You trust your bible IS in fact the inspired words of God? FACT: The Catholic Church decided with the help of the Holy Spirit what was inspired and what was not inspired words of God then she put all the inspired letters into her book she named "The Bible"! If the Holy Spirit did in fact help the Catholic Church in the making of the bible then: She MUST be the ONE Church Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide into all truth!...............
John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
QUESTION 1... Did the Holy Spirit help the Church in deciding what was truly inspired? Yes or No!
thomas t If NO then how can you trust your bible is in fact the inspired words of God?! Toss it out your stinking window!

Sent FOREVER to his One Church!
John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever
QUESTION 2.. If the Holy Spirit helped in deciding the inspired words of God then he MUST still be FOREVER with the same church! Yes or No?

we did discuss this, already. How often do I have to repeat myself?
copying from post #141: The Catholic Church made something good - decided the canon.
And afterwards went around murdering. I leave the Catholic Church because of the murdering.
As I said, a good deed does not compensate for murder.

The Holy Catholic Church MUST be the Church Jesus referred to when he said.. "If they hear you they hear me, if they reject you they reject me and God!" NO OTHER can be the One Church Jesus built on ROCK.. Not on sand! On ROCK thus it will never ever fall!

that's your presumption (redded passages).

 

[metis]

I didn't know that churches murdered. I've certainly have known that some people in churches may have murdered, but then some other people in churches do a lot of other things as well.

If a church murders, I wonder if it uses its spires to stab someone with? But then what about churches that have no spires? Hmmmmmmmmmm?

 

[Dogknox20]

I think I am in Christ, but I'm not in the Catholic Church.

we did discuss this, already. How often do I have to repeat myself?
copying from post #141: The Catholic Church made something good - decided the canon.
And afterwards went around murdering. I leave the Catholic Church because of the murdering.
As I said, a good deed does not compensate for murder.

that's your presumption (redded passages).

thomas t, Answer the questions.... Did the Holy Spirit help decide the Inspired words of God? Yes or No!?
The scriptures tell YOU.. The Holy Spirit is FOREVER with the Church Jesus established... Is the Holy Spirit FOREVER WITH the ONLY Church that made your bible? Yes or No!?

You cry out.. "The Catholic Church murders!"
Christians fought Turks in 1571 in a decisive sea battle Catholics won... They killed many Muslims from Turkey! Until the sea battle the Muslims were killing many Christians in cities around the Mediterranean! This battle saved the West!
Have you read the Old Testament? David killed Goliath ... David KILLED ten thousands Saul killed thousands! Throughout the Scriptures God helped the Jews KILL their rivals! Thousands of Angels followed the people of Moses into the Promised Land killing those in front! The People Of Moses killed all in Jericho!

The Catholic Church is HOLY and Blameless!
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

For you to reject the Catholic Church you MUST reject Logic and Scriptures!
Protestant murder!
Jehovah witness murder children by withholding Blood transfusions!

 

[Dogknox20]

I think I am in Christ, but I'm not in the Catholic Church.
.

thomas t QUESTION #1 Did the Holy Spirit help the Catholic Church decide the Inspired words of God when she made the bible? Yes or No!?
13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.

The scriptures tell believers.. The Holy Spirit is FOREVER with the Church Jesus established...
thomas t QUESTION #2 Is the Holy Spirit FOREVER WITH the Catholic Church the same Church that made your bible? Yes or No!?
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth.

 

[thomas t]

Christians fought Turks in 1571 in a decisive sea battle Catholics won... They killed many Muslims from Turkey!

this wasn't what I was talking about.

Have you read the Old Testament? David killed Goliath ... David KILLED ten thousands Saul killed thousands!

this wasn't what I was talking about, either. I was talking about murder.

thomas t, Answer the questions.... Did the Holy Spirit help decide the Inspired words of God? Yes or No!?

+

thomas t QUESTION #1 Did the Holy Spirit help the Catholic Church decide the Inspired words of God when she made the bible? Yes or No!?
13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.

I answered this, already. In #163. How often do I have to repeat myself here? Can't you remember what I wrote for a change?
I wrote...
ah no [God's spirit did not fail to guide the CC]. God guided Balaam, also, through his spirit. I'm assuming that every prophet who speaks the word of God has it. But it was his fault that the whole thing went wrong - not God's.

I hate going round in cirlces with you!

thomas t QUESTION #2 Is the Holy Spirit FOREVER WITH the Catholic Church the same Church that made your bible? Yes or No!?
16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth.

I think I made that clear in my answer to No1. You can have the Holy Spirit AND everything might go wrong, as was the case with Balaam.
However, the Bible verse you quoted does not mention the Catholic Church.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

this time, your Bible verse does not mention the CC, either. There is no verse mentioning the "holy" CC.

This CC is blameless according to you.
and no, I don't commit murder!