Prove: Satan does (not) exist

[Rise]

-I make no claims of my own, but merely repeat the ugly statements the bible says, without twisting the words into the exact opposite of what is written.

You made several claims about what the Bible says.

The onus is on you to prove your claim is true by citing the Scripture.

Indeed. I merely go by what is written-- I don't twist the words. Unlike some.

LOL! The bible is an ugly book of myth. But within it's scope? Within it's mythology? What I said holds.

I never saw this ... ahem... "pressed". The bible says what it says.

The bible gives countless examples wherein it's god absolutely acts-- I alluded to several.

You are committing the logical fallacy of "argument by assertion".
Merely asserting the Bible says what you claim does not prove your claim is true.

You need to establish the truth of your claim with evidence; such as citing Scripture and giving reasons why it supports your claim.

But here: The bible's god absolutely is a jealous god-- this is mentioned numerous times. The bible's god is also quite egotistical-- look at the first 4 of the 10 commandments for examples.

Next? The bible's god is so insistent that it's Authority cannot be challenged? It wantonly murders people, for the slightest of things.

Example: the poor schlob who put out a stead hand to the ark-- murdered right there.

Example: the typical kids, teasing bible-god's Special Favorite, called him baldy. Bible god sends she-bears to murder the kids.

Example: Elijah and that magic fire-alter. Bible god could not resist the Challenge-- destroyed the altars of Ba'al, and the priests too.

Example: Lot and company fleeing Sodom-- Lot's unnamed wife looks back-- bible-god could not STAND the challenge to his authority-- murders her right there.

Example: Eden. Biblegod deliberately, and with malice, puts a dangerous artifact-- a Magic Tree of Knowing, and demands mindless obedience. When the poor naive, and child-mind Adam eats the Magic Candy Tree? Biblegod's authority was CHALLENGED-- and in a rare fit of mercy, doesn't kill Adam right there-- even though he promised he would (that was, apparently a LIE), but does boot poor Adam out on his backside.

Example: Biblegod sends poor Moses to "free my people". Moses politely asks the Pharaoh, but Biblegod cannot ALLOW his AUTHORITY to be questioned-- he forces Pharaoh through a series of murderous evil events, including murdering all the first born babies, JUST SO BIBLE GOD COULD BRAG ABOUT HOW EVIL--ERM-- POWERFUL HE WAS.

Shall I continue with more examples where bible god cannot STAND ANY challenge to his Authority?

Let's review the four original premises you claimed were true and see if your response attempts to prove them:
1. That there are circumstances in which satan or God do not have free will and are forced to act.
2. That they are forced to answer a challenge to their authority.
3. What it actually means to "challenge their authority".
4. That this experiment designed by the OP fits within your claim of a challenge satan would be forced to answer.

So right away we see you have not attempted to prove any of the claims you made about satan or the OP's test. You didn't even mention satan, let alone try to prove you claims about him to be true using the Bible.

Remember, your original claim was that the OP's test is a valid way to test satan, because you claimed satan is forced to kill you within 24 hours if you challenge him to. You also claimed the same about God, but ultimately arguing about God in that way is not relevant to the claim you made unless you are assuming that what can be proven to be true of God is assumed to automatically also be true of satan - an assumption you have no basis for and which you will never be able to prove using the Bible.

Your entire argument is null and invalid in the sense that it's appears to be based on a logical fallacy of presuming that if you can prove something to be true about God then it automatically means that is true about satan. On that baseis alone, because you don't even try to prove anything about satan, but only talk about God, your original claims about satan are invalided and you have proven you have no biblical proof for your claims about satan.

And, as I said, you won't be able to prove your claims about satan to be true using the Bible, as you claimed you could, because there is nothing in the Bible that will prove your claim to be true.


But, since I did challenge you also to prove your claims about God were in the Bible, let's talk about how your ideas about God are also wrong (even though it's not really relevant to proving your original claim about the OP's test):

You only talked about God, and even then you failed to address several of your key premises about God:
1. You failed to define what you think it means to "challenge His authority".
2. And you failed to establish, either with logical reasoning or scriptural facts, that God was forced to act and had no free will.
3. You never give any reasons why, even if your claims about God are true, what logical or factual reason we would have to believe your claim that what is true of how God operates is also assumed to be true of how satan operates.

About the only thing you did try to establish in your post was the idea that people "challenged God's authority" and therefore were killed. But, we will see, upon closer scrutiny, that you did not even prove that claim to be true with the accounts you referenced.


First let's examine the structure of your argument, starting with identifying your premises:
The first three premises are directly related to what you originally tried to assert, so we'll deal with those.

Premise 1: That these Bible accounts you referenced represent "challenges to God's authority".
Premise 2: That God kills people instantly for "challenging His authority".
Premise 3: That God was forced to act when His "authority was challenged" and did not have free will to do otherwise.

The following are also premises that you tried to assert as part of your post, but they actually are completely irrelevant to proving or disproving your original claims regardless of whether or not they are true:
Premise 4. That God is jealous
Premise 5. That God is egotistical.
Premise 6: That God had malice in putting the tree of good and evil in the garden.
Premise 7: That God demands mindless obedience.
Premise 8: That God lied to Adam.

I could dispute all of those as untrue based on the Bible but, since they fall under the category of logical fallacies, there would be no need to address them here because they are not relevant to proving your original claim.
They all fall under the logical fallacy of "Irrelevant Conclusion" - because whether or not they are true they are still irrelevant to proving your original claim. The things you assert about God's character have no relevance to proving your claims that there is a certain way you can "challenge His authority" that forces Him to act and that He has no free will at that point.
It's also possible you could be engaging in the logical fallacies of "Red Herring" or "Ad Hominem" (against God) - in the sense that you're trying to distract from the fact that you don't really have a solid Biblical basis for your original claims by throwing up a smoke screen of character attacks against God hoping to divert the discussion into that topic instead.



Your premise #3 is an easy one to shoot down, and with it your entire conclusion. Because your entire claim is invalidated unless you can first prove premise #3.
You have given no reason for why your claim is true that you think God was forced to act and had no free will. In the case of the Elijah account you merely assert He "couldn't resist" acting, but you don't give any reasons why your assertion is true. We can just as easily assume he made the choice to act and and wasn't forced to. You need to give reasons why you think it wasn't a choice He made but why you think He was forced to.
You're guilty of the logical fallacy of "argument by assertion" - you are merely re-asserting your original claim without giving reasons why your claim is true.
In fact, you've given no logical or scriptural reasons in any of your post why you think God was forced to act and had no free will in any of these situations. If you can't establish that premise is true then your entire original claim falls apart that someone could force God to respond to their challenge and they he would have no ability to resist answering the challenge by bringing immediate death upon them.

In fact, the entire Bible would disprove your premise that God is forced to immediately kill people who "challenge his authority" (which we can only assume based on your examples you think is synonymous with disobeying God or insulting His prophets). There are very few accounts of people being immediately struck dead for doing something wrong. Many evil kings and individuals live long lives beyond the point of disobeying God or persecuting His prophets. Now, I assume you know that to be true about the Bible, so I don't see the need to go dig up half the Bible as a reference to prove that - but if you don't believe that Biblical fact, and want to dispute it, then I will be happy to provide you with Scriptural proof for it.

 

[Rise]

Furthermore, we can look at your premise 1 and 2 and realize they aren't true either.


Dealing with Premise 1 and 2 requires first defining what it means to "challenge God's authority".
We'll start by defining what it means to "challenge authority", going by a standard dictionary definition (Because you failed to define for yourself what you mean by that term, even though you were asked to do so).

Challenge:
A call to engage in a contest, fight, or competition.

Authority:
The power to enforce laws, exact obedience, command, determine, or judge.

So, they would have to be engaging in some kind of contest with God over His power to enforce laws/judge/demand obedience to qualify as challenging His authority.



Dealing with Premise #1, we will see why several of your references don't involve a genuine "challenge of authority".

*When Uzzah was struck dead for touching the ark in an unlawful manner, we can see in Scripture he clearly did not have that motive. As it says he put out his hand to steady the ark from falling off the wagon. As David wasn't aware of what the law was, it is likely Uzzah wasn't aware either, so it would be impossible for them to even knowingly challenging God.

*With Lot's wife, you cannot establish any reason to believe she was challenging God's authority with her action. There's nothing in the text to suggest that was her motivation or objective. Your claim is based on baseless speculation that you can't prove. We could just as easily assume she disobeyed the instruction of the angel because she didn't realize the seriousness of instruction, and did not have any intention of challenging God's authority with her action.

*Your use of the example of Elijah and the prophets of Baal is misused and shows you don't understand the account you're referencing. The prophets of Baal were not the ones who issued the challenge, which would be required to be the case for this account to be relevant to your claim. Elijah was the one who challenged the prophets of Baal to show up and gave them the test. And God didn't kill the prophets of Baal or destroy the altar in this case either - Elijah ordered the people to kill the prophets of Baal, when they failed the test, and the people chose to obey Elijah.



Now we move on to prove, using your own references, why your Premise #2 isn't true either.

*Your reference of Eden disproves your own claim that God kills people instantly for disobedience. Adam lived for close to 1,000 years.
You also disprove with your own words your claim that God has no control over His responses and is forced to kill in response to a challenge - because you acknowledge that God's response to Adam was merciful and did not fit with the pattern of what you claimed God was forced to do.

*In the case of Pharaoh, there is no immediate death. From beginning the end the encounter between him and Moses could have been as long as two months. This disproves your claim that the OP had a valid scientific test. Because you base that claim on your belief that either God or satan are bound to immediately answer a "challenge to their authority" in the Bible with death that occurs within 24 hours. Your own examples prove your claim is wrong. The test was not scientifically valid if one is trying to put to test the existence of the Biblical satan. Nevermind the fact that you can't even assume that what is true of God is automatically true of satan - that would be the logical fallacy of "False Equivalence".



The only reference you gave that legitimately could be argued fits with your criteria of possibly being an example of a challenge to God's (It's technically a challenge to the authority of His prophet) authority (as opposed to simple disobedience), and then involving an immediate death in response to that would be Elisha. But, since it's already been established with the rest of the Bible, and some of your own references, that your original claim was wrong - that God doesn't instantly kill everyone who "challenges His authority", your reference to Elisha by itself doesn't prove your original claim to be true.

If your premises were true (that all your referenced accounts involve someone challenging God's authority, and dying shortly after as a result), the no one who broke God's law would have survived without immediately dying within 24 hours. Which means all of mankind in the Bible would have been dead shortly after Adam fell. But that is not what we see in the Bible - therefore disproving your original claims.



So, to recap:
You claimed that the OP's test was a scientifically valid way to test the existence of satan because you claimed erroneously that satan is forced to immediately kill anyone within 24 hours that challenges his authority.
You base this on the fallacious logic that because you think that is how God works, you assume that also must be how satan works.
And you further base your assumption on how God works on fallacious and erroneous readings of the Bible, and end up disproving your own claims with the references you try to use.

Your references conclusively disprove the idea that God would be forced to respond to a challenge you issued to Him within 24 hours to kill you.
And you have no reason at all, certainly not any reason based on the Bible, to assume satan works that way either.

 

[JChnsc19]

It’s my understanding that supernatural claims can’t be proved either way. But I don’t believe in any of it, don’t believe any woo- any gods, demons, heaven, hell, fairies, big foot - nope

 

[susanblange]

So you will set the world on fire !

As long as it is Holiness I give you my Blessings

Especially if the girl "on fire" is this cute:

Thank-you, stvdv.

 

[Rise]

stvdv seems to be off limits for Satan

Why do you continue to talk as though your test was valid when it has already been logically invalidated for being based on unproven assumptions?

By ignoring the points that disproved the validity of your test, and continuing to talk as though your test was still valid, you are engaging in the logical fallacy of "argument by assertion" and "argument by repetition." Merely continuing to assert your test was valid, and repeating that assertion, doesn't prove it to be true.

Your test is based on the assumption that satan could kill you immediately if all you did was invite him to. If that's not true then your entire test falls apart as invalid.
But you've never given a single logical reason or fact to establish why we should believe your assumption is true. Your test is scientifically and logically invalid until you can establish the truth of the assumptions behind your conclusion.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

To torture someone means the active involvement of inflicting pain on the person..

You do realize, you are attempting to apologize for your god, doing deliberate harm to people-- forever? Right? Did your god create hell or not?

You are attempting to "explain" .... infinite torment/torture/harm/evil....!!!

It simply does not get worse than that! Seriously. Your god is a common terrorist...

You seem to think that God does this, yet such a belief is in total contradiction to the scriptures .

LMAO! Nope. You cannot re-write what is written-- I'm going by what is written.

You? Are attempting to apologize for the infinite evil your bible describes that your god is doing...

This is known as Cognitive Dissonance; you seem to have it in droves.

...which are perfectly clear that it is the person who rejects God and SEPARATES themselves from God (free will)..

Straw Man. I have separated nothing. If your god knows everything, as the bible claims?

Then? Your god knows full well what it would take to be convincing to every atheist on the planet -- but clearly, and absolutely refuses to do so.

YOU ARE ATTEMPTING TO BLAME THE VICTIM FOR THE ACTIONS OF YOUR GOD-- in this case? Negative actions: A failure to be Convincing.

So if a person is SEPARATE from God for eternity, then it is not God torturing them. Their torment is self-inflicted.

That's simply a falsehood you just wrote. Victim Blaming, too-- a severe No-No.

What is your religious/spiritual background or how did you come up with your ideas concerning God or the Bible, if you don't mind sharing?

I was raised as a Fundamentalist Christian, in the Hate Cult known as Assemblys Of God. I was enmired in that horrific, abusive culture until my late teens.

However, in direct contrast to the majority of folk caught in that trap-- and indeed-- the majority of christians I've run across in the six decades I've been alive? I actually read the *whole* bible-- cover-to-cover. The first couple of read-throughs, was the old, now long discredited King James. Later on, several other "translations"...

I've always been a fast reader-- I'd rather read than go to a party, for example.

The last couple of bible studies? Were paid, college level through the Methodist Church. Very in depth. Took 9 months each. Those studies were the Beginning Of The End of Faith: I realized that I'd been lied to my whole life, by so-called "ministers" who lied about what was actually written! The bible-- as written-- is rather an ugly book of immoral actions.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Why do you continue to talk as though your test was valid when it has already been logically invalidated for being based on unproven assumptions?.

Citation needed: You failed-- to 100%-- to even be a little bit logical. Sorry about that, Chief.

Oh well. I'd say "nice try" but you were not even a little nice, simply insultingly patronizing.

Ignored.

 

[Rise]

Citation needed

A citation of what exactly? It's not clear what you want cited.

The basis for anything I said is also already in my previous posts to him.
So if you are specific about what you want cited I can likely just copy/paste that part of the previous posts for you.

 

[1213]

Really? Yet... this "god" of yours allows Satan pretty much free reign to do whatever otherwise...

I don’t see any reason to believe Satan has “pretty much free reign”.

It would seem, then, that by your argument above? Satan is God's Agent, only doing what God tells Satan to do...

No, Satan does what he wants to do, if God allows it.

 

[InChrist]

You do realize, you are attempting to apologize for your god, doing deliberate harm to people-- forever? Right? Did your god create hell or not?

.

Since the the scriptures portray God as love, holy, good, wise, etc. don't you think a Being such as this, with infinite knowledge, would only create a place like hell if necessary and because there was a valid reason to do so?

Jesus stated that hell or everlasting fire was prepared for the devil and his angels ( Matthew 25:41). So unless a person's will/attitude is in line with the devil they need have no worry about hell. Right?

And thank you for sharing your background and experience.

 

[74x12]

I am the Messiah. I made my first appearance in the beginning of 1984. I was in the newspapers and my picture was published all over the world. Isaiah 52:13-15. I am forgotten "as a dead man out of mind..." Psalm 31:12. In 1984, the "acceptable year of the Lord" (Isaiah 61:2), I ended the Cold War, I ended the civil war in Ireland between the Protestants and Catholics, I restored pride to the US Military, and in 1988 I began to get the Jews out of Russia. On VWD Day, my enemies will be cut off by fire. Psalm 37:20, Psalm 97:3, Psalm 141:6. VWD stands for Vengeance, Wrath, and Destruction. This will mainly affect the legal system where I live. The Judges, Magistrates, Police, Sheriffs, Lawyers, Clerks, all the way down to the 911 operators. Isaiah 10:1-4. It's for widespread corruption and a conspiracy to obstruct justice. The 1985 movie, "Desperately Seeking Susan" was about me.

You know how many people think they are the Messiah?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I don’t see any reason to believe Satan has “pretty much free reign”..

That's what your bible seems to say-- worse, I hear that from many-many of your cohorts, all of whom claim to be christians too.

Who's correct? You? Them? The bible?

Or are you all wrong, due to Satan suffering from a lack of existing?

No, Satan does what he wants to do, if God allows it.

That means, that Satan is simply God's Agent Provocateur. Satan has to be God's Man on the Spot, since "God Allows it".

That's how it works. You did not appear to think this through all the way...

... few Satan-believing christians do, so you're hardly unique...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Since the the scriptures portray God as love, holy, good, wise, etc. don't you think a Being such as this, with infinite knowledge, would only create a place like hell if necessary and because there was a valid reason to do so?.

Except the scriptures also describe a vicious, mean-tempered, petty bully; Time and time again, we see the petty nature of the bible's god, in ugly and horrific small acts of ugly Bullying.

Remember the poor schlob who's "crime" was to simply try to keep the ark from falling over? DEAD RIGHT THERE-- you cannot GET more petty than that!

How about the poor couple who's "crime" was trying to save for the future, by squirreling away a couple of small pieces? DEAD RIGHT THERE. Petty.

Or? How about those poor kids who's "crime" was laughing at a feeble old bald guy? DEAD RIGHT THERE-- torn to shreds by the she-bears.... PETTY. VICIOUS. BULLY.

Hmmmm... it would appear your god is anything BUT "loving" or "good" or even WISE!

I mean-- Come On! Would a WISE god have put the Magic Sin-Candy Tree Of Knowing Right smack-dab in the MIDDLE of the "garden"? AND THEN LEAVE IT UNGUARDED BY AN ADULT?

Worse! ALLOW A KNOWN MONSTER TO WANDER FREELY ABOUT THE PLACE?

That is the OPPOSITE of "wise"-- that is the EPITOME OF FOOLISH.

It's even worse than that: Bible-god decides he made SUCH a horrible mistake-- that he wanted to Load From A Saved Backup-- and have a DO OVER--- murder ALL the babies, ALL the fluffy bunnies, ALL the cute kitten, ALL the tiny puppies-- EVERYTHING.

Except-- keep 8 of the FATALLY FLAWED STOCK, to just go and mess it up AGAIN--

How DUMB IS THAT?

Clearly-- you use the word "wise" in a way that does not actually mean "full of wisdom"...!!!!

Jesus stated that hell or everlasting fire was prepared for the devil and his angels ( Matthew 25:41). So unless a person's will/attitude is in line with the devil they need have no worry about hell. Right?.

That's not what it says, is it? It says nothing about a person's attitude-- the bible cares not one whit about your ATTITUDE. Show me a verse that says it does!

That's NONSENSE. No. All you need? Is to be a SLAVE. To follow SLAVISH (slave-like) OBEDIENCE. AND NOTHING BEYOND THAT.

Is it not better to be a mindless slave, than a thinking human?

Indeed; The bible makes that perfectly clear: The first "Lesson"? (Eden)
IT IS BETTER TO NEVER THINK AT ALL-- TO REMAIN A KNOW-NOTHING-- THAN TO KNOW.

 

[susanblange]

You know how many people think they are the Messiah?

It is a common delusion among mentally ill people to believe they are the Messiah. Most of them believe they are Jesus. I have been seeing the same (child) Psychiatrist for almost 43 years. Malachi 4:4-6. He is Elijah the Prophet, he is my savior, he is Jewish, and he sincerely believes in me. It did take him 24 years to admit it, it's not normally good medical protocol. I am mental, you have to be a nut to believe what I believe, even if you're right. Psalm 38:7, Job 30:18. I do not believe I am Jesus, he's the enemy. I've had the best of psychiatric care, I take my meds, and I haven't been hospitalized in 34 years. I am stable and lucid. A whole lot of messianic prophecy has already been fulfilled. My family drove me insane, mainly my father. The mentally ill are the chosen.

 

[InChrist]

Except the scriptures also describe a vicious, mean-tempered, petty bully; Time and time again, we see the petty nature of the bible's god, in ugly and horrific small acts of ugly Bullying.

Remember the poor schlob who's "crime" was to simply try to keep the ark from falling over? DEAD RIGHT THERE-- you cannot GET more petty than that!

How about the poor couple who's "crime" was trying to save for the future, by squirreling away a couple of small pieces? DEAD RIGHT THERE. Petty.

Or? How about those poor kids who's "crime" was laughing at a feeble old bald guy? DEAD RIGHT THERE-- torn to shreds by the she-bears.... PETTY. VICIOUS. BULLY.

Hmmmm... it would appear your god is anything BUT "loving" or "good" or even WISE!

I mean-- Come On! Would a WISE god have put the Magic Sin-Candy Tree Of Knowing Right smack-dab in the MIDDLE of the "garden"? AND THEN LEAVE IT UNGUARDED BY AN ADULT?

Worse! ALLOW A KNOWN MONSTER TO WANDER FREELY ABOUT THE PLACE?

That is the OPPOSITE of "wise"-- that is the EPITOME OF FOOLISH.

It's even worse than that: Bible-god decides he made SUCH a horrible mistake-- that he wanted to Load From A Saved Backup-- and have a DO OVER--- murder ALL the babies, ALL the fluffy bunnies, ALL the cute kitten, ALL the tiny puppies-- EVERYTHING.

Except-- keep 8 of the FATALLY FLAWED STOCK, to just go and mess it up AGAIN--

How DUMB IS THAT?

Clearly-- you use the word "wise" in a way that does not actually mean "full of wisdom"...!!!!



That's not what it says, is it? It says nothing about a person's attitude-- the bible cares not one whit about your ATTITUDE. Show me a verse that says it does!

That's NONSENSE. No. All you need? Is to be a SLAVE. To follow SLAVISH (slave-like) OBEDIENCE. AND NOTHING BEYOND THAT.

Is it not better to be a mindless slave, than a thinking human?

Indeed; The bible makes that perfectly clear: The first "Lesson"? (Eden)
IT IS BETTER TO NEVER THINK AT ALL-- TO REMAIN A KNOW-NOTHING-- THAN TO KNOW.

All I get out of your post is that you read the scriptures in an extremely superficial way, not grasping what the point of the accounts are all and you really don't want to. You trivialize or outright ignore human fault and while you attempt to drag God down to the level of a depraved human being, created in your own imagination.

But what I get mostly is that you are so angry and your anger is at GOD.
You don't sound like an unbeliever.

I don't mind discussing things with you in a reasonable way, but if you prefer just ranting then I don't know what the point is.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

All I get out of your post is that you read the scriptures in an extremely superficial way, not grasping what the point of the accounts are all and you really don't want to..

And? All I get out of your posts is that you don't bother reading the bible at all, on your own-- but instead rely on others to twist what is written into some sort if non-existent fantasy.

Your descriptions of "god" do not match any actual words in that ugly book.

 

[1213]

That's what your bible seems to say-- …

Where?

That means, that Satan is simply God's Agent Provocateur. Satan has to be God's Man on the Spot, since "God Allows it".
...

Sorry, I don’t see any good reason to believe so.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Where?.

You are admitting you don't even read (or are familiar with) your own bible?

Okaaay.. Not surprising, really-- actual bible study does tend to make a person into an atheist, after all-- I know it worked for me.

Sorry, I don’t see any good reason to believe so.

Obviously. Logic is forbidden by the bible's writers, after all....

 

[Rise]

Citation needed:

We can assume, by your unwillingness to specify what you wanted cited, that you withdraw your claim that a citation was actually needed and therefore withdraw any objection you had to the content of my post.


We can also assume, by your unwillingness to deal with the points I made that conclusively disproved your claims, that you cede the debate and admit your original claims and arguments were not valid.

You failed-- to 100%-- to even be a little bit logical. Sorry about that, Chief.

By the way, you're using a logical fallacy of "argument by assertion" and "ad hominem" here.

Merely asserting someone's position is illogical does not prove it is in fact illogical. You would need to give actual reasons why their logic is flawed to establish if your claim is true or not. If you need help seeing how that is done, look at how I dismantled the flawed logic of your position with my last large double post to you.

 

[InChrist]

And? All I get out of your posts is that you don't bother reading the bible at all, on your own-- but instead rely on others to twist what is written into some sort if non-existent fantasy.

Your descriptions of "god" do not match any actual words in that ugly book.

That is where you are wrong. I have always read the Bible on my own. I was not saved in a church or any Christian group. Though, I have attended various churches over the years, I have never been a member of any church. I do not rely on others and anything I hear from any pastor or whoever is tested against the scriptures.

I can't help but think that you've have such a misrepresentation of God in your past that you can't read the scriptures without the twisted lens you've experienced, or else you just don't want to see the truth and love of God for whatever reason.

I have no doubts about God as the only source of love and true freedom.