Prove: Satan does (not) exist

[stvdv]

There are three fatal problems with your response:
1. You're guilty of the logical fallacy of "strawman". I never said you had to try to prove/disprove the Biblical satan.
I asked you what version of satan you are trying to disprove, and pointed out why your version of satan is not consistent with the Biblical satan if that's what you're trying to disprove.

2. You are committing the logical fallacy of "avoiding the issue". You still haven't given an answer for what version of satan you are trying to prove or disprove, which is required to establish whether or not the test you've designed is a valid way of proving anything. Your test isn't scientifically valid unless you can specify the parameters of what you're trying to prove or disprove.

3. Your statement contradicts your stated purpose for this thread:

You specifically stated you want to disprove the idea of satan that others have communicated to you. Presumably you are talking about Christians, in which case their beliefs about satan are likely drawn from the Bible.
If that is not the case, the onus is on you to specify as part of your experiment who exactly you are referring to and what their idea of satan is that you are trying to disprove.
If you cannot clearly specify the parameters of the subject being tested then your test is invalid because no conclusions can be drawn from the results of your test because you never specified what you were actually testing.


I can further point out that your original test is fatally flawed and scientifically invalid for a simple logical reason that does not depend on the Bible:
Your argument is based on an assumption you can't prove. I will explain:



We see from your own comments you don't have a clear idea of what you are testing, other than the idea that satan is a "bad guy" and "out to get you". And you clearly presume that if satan kills you then it is established that he's a "bad guy" who is "out to get you". Fair enough assumption.

However, here you go off the rails into illogical absurdity with your presumption that the only thing stopping satan from killing you is the fact that you need to invite him or dare him to do it. You'd have to be presuming your invitation/dare is sufficient cause to let satan kill you, thus proving he's a bad guy if he acts on the opportunity, otherwise your test is invalid.

But what is your basis for assuming that satan is free to kill you within 24 hours just because you invited or dared him to?
You need to prove your assumption is true for your test to be valid.
But you have no logical reason to believe those assumptions are true.

And if you can't establish the truth of that assumption then your entire argument falls apart and your test is scientifically and logically invalid from start to finish.
As someone who claims to be a scientist, you should recognize the seriousness of conducting an experiment based on false assumptions. It's not valid and will likely give you false results.

Thank you for your explanation.

 

[Rise]

The one claiming Satan exists must prove it.

You are committing the logical fallacy of "red herring". You are trying to divert away from having to answer the logical errors in your test by changing the topic.

Your statement also contradicts your previous statements, and the very premise of why you started this thread - you are the one who started this thread by claiming you would prove or disprove the existence of satan with your test.
Since you are the one making a claim the onus is on you to establish the truth of your claim.
You need to establish that your test is logically valid and that the assumptions behind your test are true.

Your test is based on the assumption that satan could kill you immediately if all you did was invite him to. If that's not true then your entire test falls apart as invalid.
You've never given a single logical reason or fact to establish why we should believe your assumption is true. Your conclusion is invalid until you do that.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Satan can’t do anything that God doesn’t allow. So, if you don’t die, it can be because God didn’t allow that.

Really? Yet... this "god" of yours allows Satan pretty much free reign to do whatever otherwise...

... hmmm...

It would seem, then, that by your argument above? Satan is God's Agent, only doing what God tells Satan to do...

 

[Rise]

You keep using the word "logic" in ways that do not match any of the standard definitions...

hmmmmm...

You shouldn't throw stones from a glass house.

The standards of logic dictates that if you make a claim you need to be the one to establish the truth of your claim with logical reasoning or facts.

You asserted earlier that the following is true, and claimed the Bible proved it was true:

What "facts" would that BE? From the bible?

If you go by the bible-- and don't try to weasel your way around what is actually written?

Then both Satan AND God are required to respond-- because in either case, A Challenge To Their Authority was issued.

And the bible makes 100% clear, that either character cannot refuse a Challenge To Their Authority.

In that regard, neither has Free Will-- they Must Act. Their nature compels them to Act.

yet... we see.. time and time again, they never actually do anything.

Thus? The bible is ... WRONG about the Nature of either character.

Hmmm... I appears we can simply dismiss the Bible in it's entirety, as we cannot trust anything is says.

WHAT NOW, OH WISE SPEAKER-FOR-GOD?

But when pressed to provide what basis you had for your claims, such as what Scriptures supposedly prove your claim, you never responded.

Standards of logic dictate the responsibility is on you to prove your claim is true by showing the Scriptures that support your claim.
Otherwise you are guilty of the logical fallacy of "argument by assertion". You think merely asserting something proves it's true. It doesn't.

You need to establish the truth of your claim with logical reasoning or facts.
You can't, from a logic perspective, run around just making assertions of truth but then be unable to ever back up your claims with evidence.

I'm still eagerly awaiting your response, as I am very interested in seeing if you even think you have Scriptures that would support your claim. Because I have read the Bible enough to know you won't find the support you think is in there for your belief.

Remember, you have to Biblicly prove the following for your claims to be true:
1. Show that there are circumstances in which satan or God do not have free will and are forced to act.
2. Show that they are forced to answer a challenge to their authority.
3. Show what it actually means to "challenge their authority".
4. Show that this experiment designed by the OP fits within your claim of a challenge satan would be forced to answer.

 

[InChrist]

So your god-- with malice and evil intent-- deliberately permits Satan to do all the Evil things in the world?

Again-- your god is Evil, therefore-- even a hint of Evil, taints the whole thing...

Apparently, your god is so inept, it could not create Free Will without also creating Pure, Malicious Evil.

Wow.... is that incompetent or what?

I can only conclude from your post that you do not understand God, love, satan, evil or free will, at least certainly not from the biblical perspective. Possibly, somewhere along the line you have experienced a gross misrepresentation of God and the Bible or have had the scriptures used as a weapon against you by those claiming to be Christians. I really don't know, but your ideas appear to me to be extremely distorted.

I see that the scriptures indicate God did not create satan to be evil. He was created as a good, beautiful angel, who used his free will to reject God, His goodness and love, therefore, doing and becoming evil. Certainly, as you have stated, God knew this would happen yet still created this angel who rebelled. You seem to think that God has failed somehow in the way He gave free will. Whereas, I believe there can be no such thing as real love unless actual choice and free will is offered. According to the scriptures, the world and universe God originally created was good. This world was good because God has offered freedom to His creation; freedom to humanity, as well as the angels, to love Him freely. This freedom came with a cost and the risk that some angels (and people) as satan and his demonic followers abused. Yet, a universe where angels or a world without freedom, where people are mere robotic creations, would not be a good world, nor would real love exist.

My perspective is that God, being God and knowing the outcome of any given scenario, knew and knows that the way He designed this world with the allowance of freedom, which includes the possibly of evil, was the wisest and only way to create a good world and a world where real relational love was free to take place.

According to the scriptures, because God in His Nature and Being is good, there would still be evil in the world, even without satan, anytime anyone opposes or rejects a good God. So something to think about every time you, I, or anyone opposes God we are participating in the evil we often speak so easily and adamantly against.

Just my thoughts.

 

[MonkeyFire]

Did the Satan character ever exist? If so-- then your version of god had failed in it's responsibilities.

Satan embodies nothingness.

 

[Yohanan ben Yaaqov]

Well considering that – שָׂטָן – satan is a Hebrew word, and that it is simply a common Masculine Noun which means: adversary, opponent; accuser; which is not now, nor has ever been a Proper Noun or a Name; there is no one or nothing that has ever been named “Satan.”

Also considering that the term – הַשָׂטָן – hasatan – “the accuser” only occurs 17 times throughout the Hebrew Scriptures – 14 times in the fable of ʾIyyov – aka Job – where he/it is accusing Iyyov/Job of being a fair-weather fan; and 3 times in a vision of the Prophet Zechariah where he/it is the Prosecuting Attorney in a metaphorical Heavenly Court, it is highly unlikely that any such character exists outside of metaphor and conjecture.

There is not now, nor has there ever been, nor will there ever be, any such thing as a “devil,” or anything similar to it in either Judaism or the Hebrew Scriptures.

The entire concept of the xian “devil” was nothing more than another scare tactic used to coerce people into becoming xians, and in the pagan and superstitious times of 1600 years ago it had a tendency to work. Why anyone in the information age of today would believe in any such utter nonsense is a mystery to me.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

You shouldn't throw stones from a glass house..

My house is fine-- I make no claims of my own, but merely repeat the ugly statements the bible says, without twisting the words into the exact opposite of what is written.

I refuse to apologize for such an immoral collection of ugliness.

The standards of logic dictates that if you make a claim you need to be the one to establish the truth of your claim with logical reasoning or facts..

Indeed. I merely go by what is written-- I don't twist the words. Unlike some.

You asserted earlier that the following is true, and claimed the Bible proved it was true:
.

LOL! The bible is an ugly book of myth. But within it's scope? Within it's mythology? What I said holds.

But when pressed to provide what basis you had for your claims, such as what Scriptures supposedly prove your claim, you never responded..

I never saw this ... ahem... "pressed". The bible says what it says.

Remember, you have to Biblicly prove the following for your claims to be true:
1. Show that there are circumstances in which satan or God do not have free will and are forced to act.
2. Show that they are forced to answer a challenge to their authority.
3. Show what it actually means to "challenge their authority".
4. Show that this experiment designed by the OP fits within your claim of a challenge satan would be forced to answer.

*sigh*... logic is beyond you, isn't it?

The bible gives countless examples wherein it's god absolutely acts-- I alluded to several. I'm sorry if you don't know the bible well enough to recognize those examples.

I do find it quite typical that a theist doesn't know their own book....

But here: The bible's god absolutely is a jealous god-- this is mentioned numerous times. The bible's god is also quite egotistical-- look at the first 4 of the 10 commandments for examples.

Next? The bible's god is so insistent that it's Authority cannot be challenged? It wantonly murders people, for the slightest of things.

Example: the poor schlob who put out a steady hand to the ark-- murdered right there.

Example: the typical kids, teasing bible-god's Special Favorite, called him baldy. Bible god sends she-bears to murder the kids.

Example: Elijah and that magic fire-alter. Bible god could not resist the Challenge-- destroyed the altars of Ba'al, and the priests too.

Example: Lot and company fleeing Sodom-- Lot's unnamed wife looks back-- bible-god could not STAND the challenge to his authority-- murders her right there.

Example: Eden. Biblegod deliberately, and with malice, puts a dangerous artifact-- a Magic Tree of Knowing, and demands mindless obedience. When the poor naive, and child-mind Adam eats the Magic Candy Tree? Biblegod's authority was CHALLENGED-- and in a rare fit of mercy, doesn't kill Adam right there-- even though he promised he would (that was, apparently a LIE), but does boot poor Adam out on his backside.

Example: Biblegod sends poor Moses to "free my people". Moses politely asks the Pharaoh, but Biblegod cannot ALLOW his AUTHORITY to be questioned-- he forces Pharaoh through a series of murderous evil events, including murdering all the first born babies, JUST SO BIBLE GOD COULD BRAG ABOUT HOW EVIL--ERM-- POWERFUL HE WAS.

Shall I continue with more examples where bible god cannot STAND ANY challenge to his Authority?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I can only conclude from your post that you do not understand God, love, satan, evil or free will, at least certainly not from the biblical perspective..

That would be false, on your part. It would appear that I know the bible far more than most theists-- for I only go by what is written. I do not attempt to twist it into the exact opposite, as so many theists do herein.

The bible's god is the opposite of love. You do not threaten to torture forever, someone you "love" if they don't "love you back".

There is nothing loving about the bible's god.

And?

Free Will? Cannot exist if the future -- the one and only-- is known. The bible clearly states that all the future is known already.

Thus? There is no actual free will.

As for Satan? He is simply an agent of bible god, carrying out bible god's nefarious plans, like a puppet on a string...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Satan embodies nothingness.

That is a cute, but meaningless statement.

You cannot actually have "nothingness". That is a null, or meaningless phrase.

Indeed, modern physics seems to show that "nothingness" is an impossible thing, and cannot exist within the Universe.

Therefore? I suppose you could say that "Satan" isn't real.

Which is good-- that's progress. Neither is the bible's god...

...Fortunately.

 

[InChrist]

That would be false, on your part. It would appear that I know the bible far more than most theists-- for I only go by what is written. I do not attempt to twist it into the exact opposite, as so many theists do herein.

The bible's god is the opposite of love. You do not threaten to torture forever, someone you "love" if they don't "love you back".

Show me one place in the scriptures where it says God "tortures" someone. The word used is torment and if you really read the passages in context and consider the overall picture presented in the Bible I don't see how you can miss seeing that it is self-torment that a person brings upon themselves.

Free Will? Cannot exist if the future -- the one and only-- is known. The bible clearly states that all the future is known already.

Thus? There is no actual free will.

As for Satan? He is simply an agent of bible god, carrying out bible god's nefarious plans, like a puppet on a string...

I don't think the future being known diminishes free will. God, being outside of time sees the future, nevertheless, each person is making their own free will choices, especially in regard to God and eternal life.

Satan is being used by God even in his rebellion, yet he (satan) freely chose to rebel and change from Lucifer to satan and continues by his own evil acts to digress further and further into evil.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Show me one place in the scriptures where it says God "tortures" someone. The word used is torment and if you really read the passages in context and consider the overall picture presented in the Bible I don't see how you can miss seeing that it is self-torment that a person brings upon themselves.

Wow.... just.... wow. The twisted cognitive dissonance you have to go through, to turn the meaning of the word on it's head?

In order to soothe the fact the ugly theology of christianity requires infinite torment-- which is synonymous with infinite torture.

And? "self torment" is absolutely bogus.

 

[MonkeyFire]

That is a cute, but meaningless statement.

You cannot actually have "nothingness". That is a null, or meaningless phrase.

Indeed, modern physics seems to show that "nothingness" is an impossible thing, and cannot exist within the Universe.

Therefore? I suppose you could say that "Satan" isn't real.

Which is good-- that's progress. Neither is the bible's god...

...Fortunately.

There can be nothingness because there is no such thing. Non-sequiter is his nihilist demon brother.

 

[InChrist]

Wow.... just.... wow. The twisted cognitive dissonance you have to go through, to turn the meaning of the word on it's head?

In order to soothe the fact the ugly theology of christianity requires infinite torment-- which is synonymous with infinite torture.

And? "self torment" is absolutely bogus.

No, it is not twisted or bogus, Just reality. If people were created to be in an eternal, loving, joyful relationship with their Creator and if the lives of humans made in God's image are sustained by His life-giving power, then for one to reject God, His love, His goodness, His beauty, is to reject Life itself by one's own choice. The result is lonely, self-inflicted despair.

Torment is not synonymous with torture and BTW biblical theology does not require infinite torment since the entire theme and gospel message is that Jesus saves and God desires that none should perish, but receive eternal life.

 

[74x12]

The serpent was a part of Adam's anatomy. God the Messiah has a father and a mother. A&E were naked and what they did was a sexual act. There was no talking snake or magical fruit. The story of A&E is a parable and is not meant to be taken literally. It will be the parable at the Messiah's trial. Psalm 49:4, Psalm 78:2. Christian A Lange is Adam/Satan and my father.

Then are you saying you are the Messiah? That's quite a claim if so.

 

[stvdv]

You are committing the logical fallacy of "red herring". You are trying to divert away from having to answer the logical errors in your test by changing the topic.

Your statement also contradicts your previous statements, and the very premise of why you started this thread - you are the one who started this thread by claiming you would prove or disprove the existence of satan with your test.
Since you are the one making a claim the onus is on you to establish the truth of your claim.
You need to establish that your test is logically valid and that the assumptions behind your test are true.

Your test is based on the assumption that satan could kill you immediately if all you did was invite him to. If that's not true then your entire test falls apart as invalid.
You've never given a single logical reason or fact to establish why we should believe your assumption is true. Your conclusion is invalid until you do that.

 

[nPeace]

@stvdv I understand your perspective... I believe.
I think you believe truth is relative to each person (correct me if I am wrong).
I don't hold this view, as I believe truth is absolute, and we have to individually find it. I believe, we do come close enough to it, to have a measure of it, and in that way, it may be said, we know it... to an extent.
However, just as A cannot be A, and yet not A, I don't see how there can be such a thing as my truth, and your truth, and they differ, unless we agree that either my truth is really truth, or it isn't, and visa versa.

However, I do respect that we humans see things differently.

 

[stvdv]

Well considering that – שָׂטָן – satan is a Hebrew word, and that it is simply a common Masculine Noun which means: adversary, opponent; accuser; which is not now, nor has ever been a Proper Noun or a Name; there is no one or nothing that has ever been named “Satan.”

Thank you. What a big relief. Finally.
Good to know there is no Hebrew Satan.
1) Strange so many Christians believe Satan exists. Probably Christianity has nothing to do with Hebrew (or they don't know Hebrew)
2) I guess you mean in Hebrew (just to avoid any confusion)

Also considering that the term – הַשָׂטָן – hasatan – “the accuser” only occurs 17 times throughout the Hebrew Scriptures – ............. it is highly unlikely that any such character exists outside of metaphor and conjecture.

Thanks. This indeed makes sense. Of course it's likely Satan exists, but at least not within Hebrew. You narrowed Satan's existence down considerably. Thanks.

There is not now, nor has there ever been, nor will there ever be, any such thing as a “devil,” or anything similar to it in either Judaism or the Hebrew Scriptures.

I really hope nobody is going to debate that

The entire concept of the xian “devil” was nothing more than another scare tactic used to coerce people into becoming xians, and in the pagan and superstitious times of 1600 years ago it had a tendency to work.

Why anyone in the information age of today would believe in any such utter nonsense is a mystery to me.

Scare tactics was also my idea

This indeed is 1 of the great mysteries

"Utter non-sense" seems quite accurate, as Satan is not experienced by the senses.

 

[stvdv]

However, I do respect that we humans see things differently.

That is most important IMO.
I am careful to say "this is truth or fact". But "we humans see things differently" seems to be true

@stvdv I understand your perspective... I believe.
I think you believe truth is relative to each person (correct me if I am wrong).

Almost correct.

"truth" is for me relative to each person, whereas "Truth" is the Absolute "Truth".

God knows the "Truth" IMO, and not all people who claim to know the "Truth" really know the "Truth", hence I use "truth" in that case, and reserve "Truth" for God.

I leave it to God to decide whether or not I or you or other humans know the "truth" or the "Truth"; not for me to judge.

 

[nPeace]

Well considering that – שָׂטָן – satan is a Hebrew word, and that it is simply a common Masculine Noun which means: adversary, opponent; accuser; which is not now, nor has ever been a Proper Noun or a Name; there is no one or nothing that has ever been named “Satan.”

Also considering that the term – הַשָׂטָן – hasatan – “the accuser” only occurs 17 times throughout the Hebrew Scriptures – 14 times in the fable of ʾIyyov – aka Job – where he/it is accusing Iyyov/Job of being a fair-weather fan; and 3 times in a vision of the Prophet Zechariah where he/it is the Prosecuting Attorney in a metaphorical Heavenly Court, it is highly unlikely that any such character exists outside of metaphor and conjecture.

There is not now, nor has there ever been, nor will there ever be, any such thing as a “devil,” or anything similar to it in either Judaism or the Hebrew Scriptures.

The entire concept of the xian “devil” was nothing more than another scare tactic used to coerce people into becoming xians, and in the pagan and superstitious times of 1600 years ago it had a tendency to work. Why anyone in the information age of today would believe in any such utter nonsense is a mystery to me.

So there is a Satan then.
(Revelation 12:10) . . .the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God!
(Zechariah 3:1) And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of Jehovah, and Satan was standing at his right hand to resist him.
(Job 1:9) At that Satan answered Jehovah: “Is it for nothing that Job has feared God?..."

Satan
[Resister].
In many places in the Hebrew Scriptures, the word sa·tanʹ appears without the definite article. Used in this way, it applies in its first appearance to the angel that stood in the road to resist Balaam as he set out with the objective of cursing the Israelites. (Nu 22:22, 32) In other instances it refers to individuals as resisters of other men. (1Sa 29:4; 2Sa 19:21, 22; 1Ki 5:4; 11:14, 23, 25) But it is used with the definite article ha to refer to Satan the Devil, the chief Adversary of God. (Job 1:6, ftn; 2:1-7; Zec 3:1, 2) In the Greek Scriptures the word sa·ta·nasʹ applies to Satan the Devil in nearly all of its occurrences and is usually accompanied by the definite article ho.

The angel who resisted God, and made accusations, is called Satan.
(Revelation 12:9) . . .the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth. . .
This angel has been resisting from the beginning, and thus he acquired that name / title.

To claim that there never was, now, or ever will be, a Satan in the Hebrew scriptures would make void everything you just said, wouldn't it?
...satan is a Hebrew word, and that it is simply a common Masculine Noun which means: adversary, opponent; accuser
...it is used with the definite article ha to refer to Satan ...the chief Adversary of God. (Job 1:6,; 2:1-7; Zechariah 3:1, 2)