Prove that humans aren't blind to God's existence

[Autodidact]

What's ironic is that you're trying to demonstrate how boxed in my religion is, but it seems like it is YOUR beliefs that are boxed in. Gravity could operate entirely differently than we assume it is. Everything we know about genetics could get thrown out the window with a new discovery. THIS is the NATURE OF SCIENCE, funny that you don't understand that. A real scientist EMBRACES CHANGE. A scientist is completely open to the existence of "new" evidence and "new" discoveries. It is ideologists, not skeptics and scientists, that cling to our current understanding of the world.

Of course. But you have to accept basic assumptions provisionally or you can't do science--or get out of bed in the morning. A skeptic is open-minded, but not so open-minded that her brains fall out.

You seem under the impression that my religion is somehow stagnant and doesn't change. How would you know, sir? Obviously, you wouldn't. My relationship with God is constantly changing, as are my views of the world and the people in it, it is called "growth", and I embrace it wholeheartedly, in my religion, and everywhere else. The only reason MY religion seems boxed in to you is because it isn't the same as yours!

I don't know where you got this from or what you're talking about. My impression is that all living religions change. If they did not, they would have become extinct.

 

[Autodidact]

Why would I ever want to predict reality? That just sounds like a smartsy way of saying "experiencing reality", which is affected by your preconceived notions, but not defined by them. And I responded properly. My life, nor my religion, is defined by preconceived notions. You live in the moment, you learn from the past, and you look to the future.

You predict reality all the time, and your ability to live and prosper depends on how well you do it. You predict that the floor will be there in the morning and hold you up. You predict that the other cars will stop at the red light, not the green. You predict that if you show up for work, you will get paid. You predict that a stock will go up, so you buy it. You predict that your line is the right one to get the attention you are seeking from a potential dating partner. Predicting reality is basically the point of having a nice big human brain. Another way of saying "predict reality" is "learn from the past."

 

[Autodidact]

Autodidact, I'll pose you the same question I did TVOR:

Given that the evidence, or lack thereof, for God's existence is a matter of perspective, how do you know that your perspective is the correct one?

I don't know that I agree that evidence is a matter of perspective.

I don't know in any absolute sense, any more than you or tomspug does. Like you, I'm just doing my best to figure it all out, within the limits of my mental capacity, such as it is.

I have done everything I can think of to test my views, to be open to new evidence, to test the evidence with any open mind, and so forth. I have read about the world's religions. I have read the arguments on both sides. I have searched assiduously for any relevant evidence I can think of. btw I have never talked to a religionist who has done this, or even had the thought occur to them that they should.

Anyway, of course I could be wrong. In fact, I assume that I probably am at a minimum not perfectly right. However, like a scientist, I will continue to use my theory until some new evidence contradicts it. Science is the best method we have for limiting the influence of our individual perspective.

 

[keith_Thornton]

Aren't all beliefs entirely subjective? Does that make them unreal?

Yes. I say all belief is fundamentally illusory. What is a belief? Is not all belief a projection of thought either as an image, or deeper, as a pleasurable emotional state? At the deepest level of our consciousness, what are beliefs based on? Are they not formed in response to fear; created in the mind to provide a sense of security no matter how irrational? The Moslem is conditioned to believe in Allah, the Christian: Jesus, the Buddhists are conditioned to believe in reincarnation. Throughout the world there is acceptance of belief as reality? Why?

 

[UnTheist]

I say all belief is fundamentally illusory.

What about this belief?

 

[Storm]

I don't know that I agree that evidence is a matter of perspective.

I don't know in any absolute sense, any more than you or tomspug does. Like you, I'm just doing my best to figure it all out, within the limits of my mental capacity, such as it is.

I have done everything I can think of to test my views, to be open to new evidence, to test the evidence with any open mind, and so forth. I have read about the world's religions. I have read the arguments on both sides. I have searched assiduously for any relevant evidence I can think of. btw I have never talked to a religionist who has done this, or even had the thought occur to them that they should.

Anyway, of course I could be wrong. In fact, I assume that I probably am at a minimum not perfectly right. However, like a scientist, I will continue to use my theory until some new evidence contradicts it. Science is the best method we have for limiting the influence of our individual perspective.

Fair enough.

 

[keith_Thornton]

What about this belief?

Trying to have a serious discussion here dogg.

 

[UnTheist]

So am I

 

[Magic Man]

Great, so anything I throw back at you will be met with the same response. That makes me think of the concept, everything is an illusion. To any objection, all one has to do is to reply, "But that's an illusion".

Yep, after a while, it gets boring..........:sleep:

Much like your responses.

 

[Magic Man]

Yes. I say all belief is fundamentally illusory. What is a belief? Is not all belief a projection of thought either as an image, or deeper, as a pleasurable emotional state? At the deepest level of our consciousness, what are beliefs based on? Are they not formed in response to fear; created in the mind to provide a sense of security no matter how irrational? The Moslem is conditioned to believe in Allah, the Christian: Jesus, the Buddhists are conditioned to believe in reincarnation. Throughout the world there is acceptance of belief as reality? Why?

Why is belief illusory? Do you think that all beliefs are formed in response to fear? If so, why would you say that?

Again, everything at its core is a belief. Some beliefs are accepted as reality by some, while others are accepted by others. Everyone accepts some beliefs as reality. Why would we not accept certain beliefs as reality? I assume you accept the belief that you are a human being typing on a computer as reality, right?

 

[tomspug]

Of course. But you have to accept basic assumptions provisionally or you can't do science--or get out of bed in the morning. A skeptic is open-minded, but not so open-minded that her brains fall out.

I don't know where you got this from or what you're talking about. My impression is that all living religions change. If they did not, they would have become extinct.

I disagree. It is not religion that changes. It is people that are changed by religion.

 

[tomspug]

Of course. But you have to accept basic assumptions provisionally or you can't do science--or get out of bed in the morning. A skeptic is open-minded, but not so open-minded that her brains fall out.

I don't know where you got this from or what you're talking about. My impression is that all living religions change. If they did not, they would have become extinct.

You predict reality all the time, and your ability to live and prosper depends on how well you do it. You predict that the floor will be there in the morning and hold you up. You predict that the other cars will stop at the red light, not the green. You predict that if you show up for work, you will get paid. You predict that a stock will go up, so you buy it. You predict that your line is the right one to get the attention you are seeking from a potential dating partner. Predicting reality is basically the point of having a nice big human brain. Another way of saying "predict reality" is "learn from the past."

Living life isn't just about "predicting reality", Autodidact. There is far more to it than that. In fact, the past is far less important than the present. The past can't change.

 

[little_monkey]

Much like your responses.

And yours are illuminating, fantastic, original... you must be a genius...:sarcastic

 

[Magic Man]

And yours are illuminating, fantastic, original... you must be a genius...:sarcastic

The difference is that I'm not posting several times to say how boring the thread and responses in it are. I'm sorry you disagree with things, but that doesn't make the responses you disagree with boring, and making statements like that doesn't help people to take your responses seriously.

 

[little_monkey]

The difference is that I'm not posting several times to say how boring the thread and responses in it are. I'm sorry you disagree with things, but that doesn't make the responses you disagree with boring, and making statements like that doesn't help people to take your responses seriously.

If you are referring to my posts in which I equate perfection and the concept "true in my belief" as boring, there was a point that was made there, and I guess it went way over your head...

 

[Autodidact]

I disagree. It is not religion that changes. It is people that are changed by religion.

I'm agreeing with you when you said that

My relationship with God is constantly changing, as are my views of the world and the people in it, it is called "growth", and I embrace it wholeheartedly, in my religion, and everywhere else. The only reason MY religion seems boxed in to you is because it isn't the same as yours!

I agree with you when you say that your religion changes. Now you're saying that I'm wrong when I agreed with you?

 

[Autodidact]

Living life isn't just about "predicting reality", Autodidact. There is far more to it than that. In fact, the past is far less important than the present. The past can't change.

I didn't say it's only about that, that would be silly. However, it's a handy thing to be able to do, especially when about to cross the street.

 

[Magic Man]

If you are referring to my posts in which I equate perfection and the concept "true in my belief" as boring, there was a point that was made there, and I guess it went way over your head...

Actually, I was referring to posts #158 and #160

 

[keith_Thornton]

So am I

You are suggesting that my statement: "all belief is fundamentally illusory" is itself a belief. Are you taking the position that everything in the universe is relative to the subject perceiving it, that the subject creates reality? Surely this is false. After you and I perish the universe will still exist as the same reality irrespective of our absence. Let me ask you, do you think that the laws of physics are a belief?

 

[Storm]

You are suggesting that my statement: "all belief is fundamentally illusory" is itself a belief. Are you taking the position that everything in the universe is relative to the subject perceiving it, that the subject creates reality? Surely this is false. After you and I perish the universe will still exist as the same reality irrespective of our absence. Let me ask you, do you think that the laws of physics are a belief?

Do you think that the assertion "all belief is fundamentally illusory" is on a par with the laws of physics? :run: