Proving With The Bible That Jesus Was NEVER Needed And Is A Con Artist

[Muffled]

And you're not even close to what the OT Messianic prophesies actually say.

I believe you can't logically prove your opinion. I have argued these many times but the opposition tends to be illogical and steadfast in their errors.

 

[Firenze]

I believe the virgin birth is in Isa. 7:14. Jews are obligated to try to disprove that prophecies refer to Jesus so they are anything but objective.

That's ridiculous and insulting. Jews are obligated to recognize the True Messiah and certainly will - when and if he arrives. They are the undisputed experts on recognizing the Messiah. Disrespecting the OT when it doesn't agree with what your lying priests and ministers doled out to you just before the collection plate is the epitome of lacking objectivity. And Isa 7:14? First, not Messianic. Ask any Hebrew scholar or Rabbi. There is no virgin birth associated as an attribute of the Messiah - except by the fraudulent gospel authors decades later. 2nd - No virgin mentioned anyway. It helps to know biblical hebrew. 3rd - Not a prophesy of anything other than what will happen within several years.... not centuries.... of the childs birth to the enemies of Ahaz. 4th - the prophesy failed. Ahaz got his *** kicked. You couldn't pick more damning evidence of the dishonesty of the gospel authors. Thanx for making my case.

 

[Firenze]

I believe you can't logically prove your opinion. I have argued these many times but the opposition tends to be illogical and steadfast in their errors.

I didn't offer an opinion. I shared with you the teachings of the vast majority of Hebrew scholars - the experts on the subject - showing the original attributes of the Messiah - what the Messianic prophesies actually claim, and what they don't claim. I have shown this evidence many times but the opposition tends to put their fingers in their ears and scream. I understand the tremendous reluctance of those indoctrinated since children in the lies of the NT. I still expect men of good character and integrity to acknowledge Truth.

 

[Muffled]

That's ridiculous and insulting. Jews are obligated to recognize the True Messiah and certainly will - when and if he arrives. They are the undisputed experts on recognizing the Messiah. Disrespecting the OT when it doesn't agree with what your lying priests and ministers doled out to you just before the collection plate is the epitome of lacking objectivity. And Isa 7:14? First, not Messianic. Ask any Hebrew scholar or Rabbi. There is no virgin birth associated as an attribute of the Messiah - except by the fraudulent gospel authors decades later. 2nd - No virgin mentioned anyway. It helps to know biblical hebrew. 3rd - Not a prophesy of anything other than what will happen within several years.... not centuries.... of the childs birth to the enemies of Ahaz. 4th - the prophesy failed. Ahaz got his *** kicked. You couldn't pick more damning evidence of the dishonesty of the gospel authors. Thanx for making my case.

I believe it is no secret and certainly not insulting that Jews are totally opposed to the concept of Jesus as Messiah and my experience on RF is that they become quite unreasonable when addressing the prophecies of the Messiah that Jesus fulfilled.

 

[Muffled]

I didn't offer an opinion. I shared with you the teachings of the vast majority of Hebrew scholars - the experts on the subject - showing the original attributes of the Messiah - what the Messianic prophesies actually claim, and what they don't claim. I have shown this evidence many times but the opposition tends to put their fingers in their ears and scream. I understand the tremendous reluctance of those indoctrinated since children in the lies of the NT. I still expect men of good character and integrity to acknowledge Truth.

I believe I am as God when answering posts and one can't get more integrity or truthfulness than that.

 

[Firenze]

I believe it is no secret and certainly not insulting that Jews are totally opposed to the concept of Jesus as Messiah and my experience on RF is that they become quite unreasonable when addressing the prophecies of the Messiah that Jesus fulfilled.

They are in no way unreasonable. They simply recognize the frauds committed by the gospel authors that pretend to be prophesies. There is no virgin birth in Messianic prophesy. The Jews know it. They tried to help you understand. But the narcotic lust for the Bribe of Heaven has been too much for the Christian to rise above. I'm sorry you're one of the billions of duped people now prisoner to this multi trillion dollar scam.

 

[Oeste]

The Jews are mistaken.

Yes, the experts are mistaken. And we should never believe the experts. It's like getting a head injury and going to a proctologist instead of a neurologist because.... they're both doctors.

Well then, if the Jewish experts are as mistaken as you claim, Christians have little to worry about, just as @Brian2 states.

I know it hurts to be shown a fool, but the Jews told us this 2000 years ago - the gospel authors knew it was true - but they lied and committed fraud anyway.

The Jews had experts 2000 years ago just as they do today, and you've told us we should never believe the experts.

Jesus is a fraud. Any Rabbi or OT scholar could tell you - but you're not interested, because that would require the level of intellectual integrity

Then provide us with some "level of intellectual integrity". Since "Any Rabbi or OT scholar could tell us "Jesus is a fraud", give us a list of these OT scholars and Rabbis. I'm sure you had a few in mind.

I've gone to several temple services and discussed scripture with OT scholars. At no time have they told me and to the best of my knowledge they have never claimed Jesus is a fraud. Certainly, I've met some who disagree with Christians as to his historical and spiritual relevance, but certainly not not anyone declaring Jesus was a fraud. If they have they are telling you something they never told me.

But this leads us to an interesting question. Based on what you've told us, when you claim Rabbis and OT scholars call Jesus a fraud, should we believe them because they said so, or should we not believe them because they did?

Also, I notice you list your religion as Skeptic which tells readers you are just as skeptical of the OT as the New. So why present OT scripture as authoritative when you believe it not?

I believe you can't logically prove your opinion.

I didn't offer an opinion.

Oh, I believe @Muffled was correct when he said you did.

I shared with you the teachings of the vast majority of Hebrew scholars -

Teachings? "...vast majority of Hebrew scholars" ??

I think not Firenz.

IMO, the Jews have enough on their plate without packaging this kind of nonsense and presenting it to us as “teachings” from the Jews.

The “vast majority of Hebrew scholars” do not share your opinion or your Christology. They may disagree with ours, but I see little indication the "vast majority" share yours.

In fact, I find it much more likely that as a skeptic you no more believe Christian than any of the Hebrew scripture you presented here. It's like saying "I don't believe what I'm telling you, but I'm hoping to get you to believe I did".

...the experts on the subject -

Yes, the experts, that as a skeptic, you have told us not to believe, Why ask us to believe these unnamed rabbis and scholars when you don't believe them yourself?

I have nothing against skeptic Firenz. I think they add tremendous value to the forum, just as they have throughout history. I once told a poster here, a skeptic, that his ability to argue against Christian theology as if he were a believing Christian showed tremendous empathy and intellect. But when you call Jesus a fraud and characterize our apostles and teachers as intentional liars, I see no empathy, and the attempt to pass this off as a teaching of Hebrew scholars I see as vitriol and little else.

Argue as a skeptic then. Show us why we should be skeptical. Demonstrate, by evidence rather than this claimed opinion of unknown and/or unsupported experts, that we have not been sufficiently skeptical or critical in our presentations or beliefs. Turn the same arguments we use against us, or present evidence we have yet to consider.

This is the role skeptics have played throughout history and I see it as one of many roles played here. I see us none the better if we live in a spiritual bubble where everyone nods in agreement and the “other guy”, the one in the “other bubble” is a liar, a fraud and a cheat.

Of course, this is simply my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt, or better yet, a bit of skepticism.

 

[rational experiences]

O earth an entity. Planet said men humans.

Human the species.

Man human says what I claim is leadership in man's belief as head of the family. And my role play is as man adult. In family life.

First family mutual equal human adult before sex. Brother sister mutual.

First lying man's thinking position. Argued against his owned first claim. As self given hierarchy of men.

Heavens a natural mass.... he didn't own mass.
O planet in space a rock only.

No theories.

As space owned rock the solid he stands on.

As heavens in space via space a heavens.

No laws to argue and no thesis.

Natural daylight.
Natural dark clear night.

Constant.

No number thesis existed just natural human terms.

No argument legal in a humans life using numbers against natural presence.

Legal exact as already human stated.

Humans as humans.

Human sex baby human X two forms.

Natural humans equal life.

No thesis whatsoever allowed says humans legal status.

As law was implemented for human survival.

Legal states no human anywhere as any type of human is above the law.

Many titled humans in behaviour...still just humans however want to argue.

Legal for humans survival states there is no other type of legal argument.

 

[Firenze]

Well then, if the Jewish experts are as mistaken as you claim, Christians have little to worry about, just as @Brian2 states.

The Jews had experts 2000 years ago just as they do today, and you've told us we should never believe the experts.

Then provide us with some "level of intellectual integrity". Since "Any Rabbi or OT scholar could tell us "Jesus is a fraud", give us a list of these OT scholars and Rabbis. I'm sure you had a few in mind

You appear to have an appalling lack of reading comprehension. My comment on not listening to the experts was clearly sarcasm, as the emoji made clear. This renders half of your screed irrelevant. I welcome you to try again. Your claim that Rabbis have never told you Jesus is a fraud is quite unbelievable - seeing that NO Rabbi or Jewish OT scholar - other than the fringe Jews for Jesus - believe Jesus is the Messiah. That means they think he's a fraud, as falsely presented by the early church. But do try again, and turn Judaism in its head by showing us all those Rabbis that follow Jesus as the Messiah. Show us the 10's of thousands of Synagogues where Jesus is hailed as the Messiah. Look out.... here comes another emoji.

Here are the OT attributes of the Messiah, as agreed by those pesky Jewish OT experts:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zh9vgdm/revision/4

Here are the mainstream Hebrew scholars that clearly re-iterate what virtually every Jew and Christian - other than you - already understand..... That they have never believed Jesus was the Messiah. It's precisely why they still wait for him. Make sure to review the notes. Here's just one highlight:

"...the doctrine of Christ was and will remain alien to Jewish religious thought." Wylen, Stephen M. Settings of Silver: An Introduction to Judaism.

Messiah in Judaism - Wikipedia

Good luck.

 

[rational experiences]

History life on earth after ice age.

Human man life present no thesis. Human woman's life present no thesis.

They weren't science a thesis of men humans they lived balanced with nature on earth.

Exact memory a human position is the human. Before our dominion conscious type a human there is no human science thesis about why a human exists.

Why do you disbelieve human science theist?

Answer as invention the machine transmits caused voice my own and image my own to now precede my life bio in the state recorded.

I caused it. It's why I taught I conjured human phenomena myself. So humans wouldn't think I'm a God as a man.

Knowing my own human ego behaviour. Son human man not like his father was. Spiritual living.

Proven. Son man star fall brain burnt changed into thinking behaviours....I want to own control everything unnaturally.

Very bad group men behaviour emerged versus our nature on earth.

Known reason...witnessed the occurrence and it is now a recorded memory.

Men very evil by thought choice behaviour took over nature's garden life and began murdering human family. Origin crime of men after ice age.

First illegal human criminal activity. Humans naturally meek did not retaliate. Still owned same natural brain mind.

Reason....Phenomena fall out is sporadic. Life on ground it's victim. As taught.

Human men hearing voice copied very old human first earths destruction a long time before dinosaurs. Origin earth man science memory.

Recorded causes already were above in Satan god man cloud angel. Visionary mind possession began.

Rebuilt technology...Moses incident. Clouds had to form remass in released flooding. Heavens cooling by flooding law increased as sacrificed heavens gas mass fell. With ice plus flooding the gases cooled the heavens cloud mass. Cloud mass a body mass eventually returned. Non flooding began.

Moses old testimonials stated.

Cloud remassed only bodily returned after burning gases UFO ark fallout caused had burnt. Floods cooled gases. Previously ice mass had kept gases cold. Law saviour changed the teaching.

Origin earths mass clouds presence huge cloud cooling body after ice age.

Mass return into mess (same meaning) I AH balances.

I ....terrestrial magnetism heat balances.
AH alpha breaths reoxygenation in nature.

Jesus had not returned the heavens cloud mass to a non burning dark grey black cloud caused burning gases above. Mass of clouds as a body type. Presence.

Hence mass a cloud can form a body mass cooling but simply disappear by voiding vacuum suck above. To be pressurised ground water held living status. Without continual flooding.

Men who taught Egyptian science had removed cloud mass above introduced earths flooding over attacked temple mountains. Instead mass pressure cooling cells the law had changed. Taught science said knew it had.

Caused by nuclear sciences on ground.

Was taught why it now flooded as clouds mass a cooling heavens mass could not reform. Now we dealt with life below non saving. Allow mass to return said law or else we'll all burn to death.

The warning.

Knew Rome control rebuilt technology and caused the new attack. Cloud body mass had returned after a long evolution from old technology attack.

Hebrew Jews were all once Egyptian same family race whose DNA changed in national family. Land nation of technology.

So the two groups in technology history used argued over who was to blame for changing earths heavens.

Romes idea in science was their event not as bad as first family Egyptian causes technology. Thought they had an excuse.

Just a history of men in science lying as they still lie today about why life should be sacrificed to be rich and owner technology. As they own all things name all things then attack all things.

They're allowed they are rich the human excuse.

Same evil behaviours of human men.

 

[Oeste]

Well then, if the Jewish experts are as mistaken as you claim, Christians have little to worry about, just as @Brian2 states.

You appear to have an appalling lack of reading comprehension. My comment on not listening to the experts was clearly sarcasm, as the emoji made clear. This renders half of your screed irrelevant.

I understand the sarcasm Firenze, but my point remains relevant.

. I welcome you to try again.

A great idea, so let's look at it again:

The Jews are mistaken.

Yes, the experts are mistaken. And we should never believe the experts. It's like getting a head injury and going to a proctologist instead of a neurologist because.... they're both doctors.

Well then, if the Jewish experts are as mistaken as you claim, Christians have little to worry about, just as @Brian2 states.

​

Brian2 states the Jews [Jewish experts] are mistaken. You state yes, the experts are mistaken, in the same sense as going to a proctologist instead of a neurologist for a head injury because are experts in their field. In the event anyone misses this point (which, incredulously, can happen a lot on this forum), you make your point even more clear to readers, with an emoji to commonly used to show sarcasm:

In other words, presenting Christian experts on the Messiah instead of presenting Jewish experts on the Messiah was like going to a proctologist instead of a neurologist. Both are experts but one is the wrong expert for head injuries and, continuing with your analogy, one is the wrong expert for Messiahs.

So which expert should we believe? @Ken who uses experts in Christianity or you, who present experts in Judaism?

Fair enough?



What you miss is the IRONY in your statement. You are a SKEPTIC Firenz. You list it as your religion. You no more believe Jewish than you believe Christian experts, and you no more believe Jewish than Christian scholars. Prophesies concerning a Divinely sent Messiah are going to be incredulous to you regardless of its source.

So where does that leave you and @Brian2 ?

It leaves you in AGREEMENT about Jewish scholars. Both of you believe they are mistaken.

So, while I strongly agree you meant your reply as sarcasm, the irony here is that you attempted to refute @Brian2 with an argument from experts neither of you believe.

As such, since you both agree, the sarcasm is lost but the irony of your comments remain.

Lastly, since it is now abundantly clear that we ALL agree these Rabbis and scholars are mistaken about Jesus, "Christian here have little to worry about".

As to the rest of my commentary, it simply asks why you present “experts” you yourself don’t believe.

Here are the OT attributes of the Messiah, as agreed by those pesky Jewish OT experts:

The Messiah - Key beliefs in Judaism - GCSE Religious Studies Revision - AQA - BBC Bitesize

Here are the mainstream Hebrew scholars that clearly re-iterate what virtually every Jew and Christian - other than you - already understand..... That they have never believed Jesus was the Messiah. It's precisely why they still wait for him. Make sure to review the notes. Here's just one highlight:

"...the doctrine of Christ was and will remain alien to Jewish religious thought." Wylen, Stephen M. Settings of Silver: An Introduction to Judaism.

Messiah in Judaism - Wikipedia

I reviewed both links.

Nothing in these links states or even suggests Rabbis and/or their scholars call Jesus a fraud, his apostles liars, or that Christian religious leaders lie to their flock. Do the Jews by and large reject Jesus as Messiah? Yes, but we already knew this. It’s right there in the NT scriptures, penned by his apostles, although you claim they lie.

Rejection does not mean they consider us frauds or liars. We accept and reject others in our lives all the time. I rejected a salesman on a roof offer, but it did not mean I thought him a fraud.

So when you charge Jesus with fraud and his apostles with lying it appears you are adding your own animosity into the mix and then laying this animosity at the feet of the Jews.

As such, I see much of the vitriol within your premise and argument to be mistaken and largely without merit.

 

[Muffled]

They are in no way unreasonable. They simply recognize the frauds committed by the gospel authors that pretend to be prophesies. There is no virgin birth in Messianic prophesy. The Jews know it. They tried to help you understand. But the narcotic lust for the Bribe of Heaven has been too much for the Christian to rise above. I'm sorry you're one of the billions of duped people now prisoner to this multi trillion dollar scam.

I believe I am much more logical that those who fail to recognize the virgin birth as prophesied. I do not need teaching to recognize the truth in scripture because I have the Paraclete as a guide and Jews do not.

 

[Firenze]

I believe I am much more logical that those who fail to recognize the virgin birth as prophesied. I do not need teaching to recognize the truth in scripture because I have the Paraclete as a guide and Jews do not.

That's convenient. When the actual scripture tells you something you don't like, just listen to the voice in your head.

 

[Firenze]

I understand the sarcasm Firenze, but my point remains relevant.

No, it doesn't. My skepticism of 2 religions being wrong has nothing to do with one religion committing fraud. I have more respect for the OT authors because their story is more rational than the invented nonsense of perverted prophesies. The jews made it clear - the Messiah will be fully human, with no divine qualities. But that wasn't good enough for the church fathers. They knew they had to convert ignorant pagans who would be too stupid to know the OT scriptures - and too lazy to follow a Judaism that included the onerous requirements of following 613 mitzvot. Enter Paul and his much easier road, add in some cool **** like the virgin births and resurrections and triune gods to give the pagans what they were already used to - and you have the invented and bogus religion of Christianity. You can pretend my exposition of truth and reality is vitriolic if it allows you to ignore the facts, that's on you. But your religion is a known fraud, and those with the intellectual integrity to honestly study scripture have learned that. It's why your numbers continue to shrink in every industrialized nation where education and critical thinking are valued.

 

[Muffled]

That's ridiculous and insulting. Jews are obligated to recognize the True Messiah and certainly will - when and if he arrives. They are the undisputed experts on recognizing the Messiah. Disrespecting the OT when it doesn't agree with what your lying priests and ministers doled out to you just before the collection plate is the epitome of lacking objectivity. And Isa 7:14? First, not Messianic. Ask any Hebrew scholar or Rabbi. There is no virgin birth associated as an attribute of the Messiah - except by the fraudulent gospel authors decades later. 2nd - No virgin mentioned anyway. It helps to know biblical hebrew. 3rd - Not a prophesy of anything other than what will happen within several years.... not centuries.... of the childs birth to the enemies of Ahaz. 4th - the prophesy failed. Ahaz got his *** kicked. You couldn't pick more damning evidence of the dishonesty of the gospel authors. Thanx for making my case.

I believe I don't know what reality you are coming from but in general Jews would rather have any Messiah other than Jesus even the anti-Christ, embodiment of the Devil. I just speak the truth if some find that insulting then they need to examine whether they have any commitment to the truth or are comfortable with the Father of Lies.

I have heard experts before and they can be oh so wrong about things because they get lost in the details and can't see the big picture.

I believe respecting the OT requires recognizing the truth not putting one's personal opinion in place of it.

I believe a person has to have a warped mind not to recognize the virgin birth as prophesied.

I believe the accusation of fraud is false. I believe it shows how desperate some are to distance themselves from the truth.

I believe that is a straw man. Nothing more then a lame excuse for not understanding the text.

I believe that is baseless speculation.

I believe I am not a case person. I only seek truth and hold to it. People who want to make a case do so because they have an axe to grind and I do not.

 

[Muffled]

That's convenient. When the actual scripture tells you something you don't like, just listen to the voice in your head.

I believe it is convenient to have a ready guide. However I have no intention of ignoring scripture just because I don't like it. If I seek guidance it is due to the fact that someone's interpretation doesn't ring true. Sometimes it is the leading of the Holy Spirit that indicates something isn't true. That used to happen when I studied with the JWs. The Holy Spirit would say: "that's not right." Then I would have to search the scriptures to find the truth because at that time I was fairly new to the scriptures.

 

[Firenze]

I believe I don't know what reality you are coming from but in general Jews would rather have any Messiah other than Jesus even the anti-Christ, embodiment of the Devil. I just speak the truth if some find that insulting then they need to examine whether they have any commitment to the truth or are comfortable with the Father of Lies.

I have heard experts before and they can be oh so wrong about things because they get lost in the details and can't see the big picture.

I believe respecting the OT requires recognizing the truth not putting one's personal opinion in place of it.

I believe a person has to have a warped mind not to recognize the virgin birth as prophesied.

I believe the accusation of fraud is false. I believe it shows how desperate some are to distance themselves from the truth.

I believe that is a straw man. Nothing more then a lame excuse for not understanding the text.

I believe that is baseless speculation.

I believe I am not a case person. I only seek truth and hold to it. People who want to make a case do so because they have an axe to grind and I do not.

You demonize the Jews and call them false. You do that because you have been indoctrinated into the frauds committed by your invented, made up religion.... that now is a multi trillion dollar scam. Of course you will lack the intellectual integrity to honestly study the scriptures. It's exactly what your religion depends on from its sheep. Recognizing the truth. When will you evolve enough to do so?

 

[Firenze]

I believe it is convenient to have a ready guide. However I have no intention of ignoring scripture just because I don't like it. If I seek guidance it is due to the fact that someone's interpretation doesn't ring true. Sometimes it is the leading of the Holy Spirit that indicates something isn't true. That used to happen when I studied with the JWs. The Holy Spirit would say: "that's not right." Then I would have to search the scriptures to find the truth because at that time I was fairly new to the scriptures.

Hearing voices is a known sign of delusion, not sacred inspiration. A man must put away toys and live in the real world.

 

[Oak of Justice]

Jesus is misunderstood because he wanted it that way. First off Messiah simply means anointed. All of God’s people are anointed.

“The LORD is the strength of His people, the saving refuge of His anointed.”

Jesus was God Himself portraying the son, his servant, who is Israel God’s chosen. He came to show the way into the kingdom of God.

“Israel is my son, my firstborn, let my son go so he can serve me.”

The son is more than one individual that’s why Jesus sends His followers as He the servant of God was sent with all of God’s word. Those who serve God do so in Spirit and in truth.

“You are my witnesses, my servants whom I have chosen.”

“Here is my servant whom I uphold, my my chosen one with whom I am pleased, upon whom I have put my spirit, he shall deliver righteousness to the people.”

“The LORD God does nothing without revealing His secrets to His servants the prophets.”

 

[ElishaElijah]

I’m. Healed and have Eternal Life through Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the World! Happy Hanukkah- Celebrating Jesus Christ the Light of the World :
““Who committed no sin, Nor was deceit found in His mouth”; who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.”
‭‭I Peter‬ ‭2‬:‭22‬-‭24‬ ‭NKJV‬‬