Proving With The Bible That Jesus Was NEVER Needed And Is A Con Artist

[RabbiO]

The Jews are mistaken.

In the interest of fostering the civil environment that is one of the aims of the forum, why don’t we just acknowledge that this is an area of disagreement and let it go at that?

 

[muhammad_isa]

The Jews are mistaken.

Yes, depending what one means by "the Jews".

Jesus is the promised, Jewish Messiah, and in His wisdom G-d has raised him to heaven, to return at a time appointed.

 

[RabbiO]

Yes, depending what one means by "the Jews".

Jesus is the promised, Jewish Messiah, and in His wisdom G-d has raised him to heaven, to return at a time appointed.

As to the first, who are you thinking should not be among the Jews that @Brian2 mentioned.

As to the post in general I refer back to my post #81.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..who are you thinking should not be among the Jews that @Brian2 mentioned.

The so-called Jewish Christians.
That would include Jesus and all of his disciples.

 

[Firenze]

The Jews are mistaken.

Yes, the experts are mistaken. And we should never believe the experts. It's like getting a head injury and going to a proctologist instead of a neurologist because.... they're both doctors.

There was no virgin birth in the OT, much less one that was Messianic. The Jews know this - as does every Christian scholar, pastor, minister, priest and parson. They all learn about these frauds in Seminary - but still lie about it. I'm sorry you have been duped.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yes, the experts are mistaken. And we should never believe the experts. It's like getting a head injury and going to a proctologist instead of a neurologist because.... they're both doctors.

There was no virgin birth in the OT, much less one that was Messianic. The Jews know this - as does every Christian scholar, pastor, minister, priest and parson. They all learn about these frauds in Seminary - but still lie about it. I'm sorry you have been duped.

Well, we really don't know. It is an inference made on the assumption that the world is natural. There is no evidence of that and how it is an assumption.
As a skeptic you should know the difference between methodological and philosophical naturalism.

 

[Brian2]

In the interest of fostering the civil environment that is one of the aims of the forum, why don’t we just acknowledge that this is an area of disagreement and let it go at that?

That's a very diplomatic way to say it, more diplomatic than my way, and I thought I was being restrained too........................... restrained but leading,,,,,,,,,,,,leading probably to a follow up question of how the Jews may be mistaken.

 

[Brian2]

Yes, the experts are mistaken. And we should never believe the experts. It's like getting a head injury and going to a proctologist instead of a neurologist because.... they're both doctors.

After a head injury there might be good reason why someone went to the wrong sort of medical expert. It would be a good start however and the person would be pointed in the right direction from the proctologist if necessary.
The early Christians were Jews however and they knew the truth about Jesus, that He was born of a virgin and that He did rise from the dead etc. Knowing those things would have helped them to see the places in the Hebrew scriptures where these things are seen to be prophesied.
Having a belief that these early Jewish Christians were telling the truth also helps other Christians to see those places in the Hebrew scriptures.
The mistake that the Jews have made is to reject the stone that has become the cornerstone, Jesus. (Psalm 118:22)

 

[Brian2]

There was no virgin birth in the OT, much less one that was Messianic. The Jews know this - as does every Christian scholar, pastor, minister, priest and parson. They all learn about these frauds in Seminary - but still lie about it. I'm sorry you have been duped.

I suppose I should answer this part of your post also.
It is true that Isa 7:14 was not about a virgin initially but can be shown to be associated with and probably be the child in Isa 9.
This child can be seen to be Hezekiah the King but Hezekiah does not fulfill the Isa 9 prophecy really well and that prophecy is a Messianic prophecy because it is about a child who will sit on the throne of David forever (unlike Hezekiah). But the child in Isa 7 still is associated with child in Isa 9 and seeing Isa 9 prophecy as Messianic shows us that the present tense which is used is the prophetic present tense, meaning that the prophecy, even though for the future, is certain and so is given in the present tense.
The Isa 9 prophecy shows a child who could easily be seen to be divine according to the words and so going back to Isa 7 prophecy then can enable someone who knew the Messiah to have been born of a virgin, the Son of God, to use the alternative translation of alma of 'virgin'.
The other Hebrew word "betula" can only mean "virgin" but "alma" has different possibilities depending on the context.
And of course the Septuagint, which Matthew in the 1st Century would be using, translates it as "virgin".
So it is not fraudulent, it is something that the Jews deny because they reject the Jesus of the gospels, the one born of a virgin, the one who is the Son of God.

 

[Firenze]

After a head injury there might be good reason why someone went to the wrong sort of medical expert. It would be a good start however and the person would be pointed in the right direction from the proctologist if necessary.
The early Christians were Jews however and they knew the truth about Jesus, that He was born of a virgin and that He did rise from the dead etc. Knowing those things would have helped them to see the places in the Hebrew scriptures where these things are seen to be prophesied.
Having a belief that these early Jewish Christians were telling the truth also helps other Christians to see those places in the Hebrew scriptures.
The mistake that the Jews have made is to reject the stone that has become the cornerstone, Jesus. (Psalm 118:22)

Your belief in Isaiah 7:14 as Messianic is proof positive of the success of the fraud perpetrated by the gospel authors. First - as the listed attributes from the OT texts make clear - a virgin birth is not an attribute. 2nd - the use of Almah is never used to specifically describe a virgin, while Bethulah is. You'd have to believe that Isaiah was befuddled when he wrote it. 3rd - this story is not about Hezekiah or anyone else but Ahaz, and Isaiahs prophesy that before the referred to child reached the age of Reason - the enemies of Ahaz would be vanquished. And the coup de gras - 4th - Isaiah was wrong. Ahaz got his butt kicked. This is why the learned Christians I know NEVER refer to this as Messianic. It's a huge embarrassment to do so. Further, the original Messianic prophesies - according to those pesky OT authors - say nothing about a crucifixion, a resurrection, or indeed any divine attributes for the Messiah they still wait for. It's clear that the gospel authors realized that their primary targets for their invented religion would not learned Jews and Rabbis - but instead the ignorant Roman pagans. So they quote mined the OT - "Hey, the pagans believe in virgin births!" "Yeah, ya gotta put that on in..." Then they simply wrote Jesus into their frauds. It's the most dishonest scam in history. So I present the facts, knowing that though some will have the intellectual integrity to accept the Truth, most will not. I simply look for the honest seeker among those addicted to the Bribe of Heaven.

 

[Brian2]

Your belief in Isaiah 7:14 as Messianic is proof positive of the success of the fraud perpetrated by the gospel authors. First - as the listed attributes from the OT texts make clear - a virgin birth is not an attribute. 2nd - the use of Almah is never used to specifically describe a virgin, while Bethulah is. You'd have to believe that Isaiah was befuddled when he wrote it. 3rd - this story is not about Hezekiah or anyone else but Ahaz, and Isaiahs prophesy that before the referred to child reached the age of Reason - the enemies of Ahaz would be vanquished.

Almah: Virgin or Young Maiden?
From the site above we get the following quote from the last paragraph.
One cannot assert that the prophet was speaking of a virgin technically on the basis of the word almah. Nor can a serious student lightly dismiss the word as having no possible reference to a miraculous conception.
You might have to read the article to see why the author says this.
Matthew used the Greek for virgin from the Septuagint, a Jewish source which was used in those days in Israel I hear, so the idea of a virgin birth is not a made up thing from a Christian source and as the blue quote says, it cannot be argued seriously that Isaiah was speaking of a virgin but it cannot be seriously dismissed that the word (almah) has no possibility of referring to a miraculous conception.
The basic idea is that too much is made of Isa 7:14 by probably Jews and skeptics and told to people like yourself and me as if Isa 7:14 and Matthews use of "virgin" proves anything about anything.
So you are not presenting the facts, you are presenting a beat up argument that proves nothing.

And the coup de gras - 4th - Isaiah was wrong. Ahaz got his butt kicked. This is why the learned Christians I know NEVER refer to this as Messianic. It's a huge embarrassment to do so. Further, the original Messianic prophesies - according to those pesky OT authors - say nothing about a crucifixion, a resurrection, or indeed any divine attributes for the Messiah they still wait for. It's clear that the gospel authors realized that their primary targets for their invented religion would not learned Jews and Rabbis - but instead the ignorant Roman pagans. So they quote mined the OT - "Hey, the pagans believe in virgin births!" "Yeah, ya gotta put that on in..." Then they simply wrote Jesus into their frauds. It's the most dishonest scam in history. So I present the facts, knowing that though some will have the intellectual integrity to accept the Truth, most will not. I simply look for the honest seeker among those addicted to the Bribe of Heaven.

I think the prophecy happened just as Isaiah had predicted. Ahaz got his butt kicked and Ephraim and Damascus got their butts kicked by Assyria also.
Nobody refers to Isa 7:14 as being Messianic by itself, it is Isa 9:6,7 that is Messianic and that child is the child of Isa 7:14. The child in Isa 9:6,7 is the great light that was seen in the region of Galilee (Isa 9:1)

 

[Firenze]

Almah: Virgin or Young Maiden?
From the site above we get the following quote from the last paragraph.
One cannot assert that the prophet was speaking of a virgin technically on the basis of the word almah. Nor can a serious student lightly dismiss the word as having no possible reference to a miraculous conception.
You might have to read the article to see why the author says this.
Matthew used the Greek for virgin from the Septuagint, a Jewish source which was used in those days in Israel I hear, so the idea of a virgin birth is not a made up thing from a Christian source and as the blue quote says, it cannot be argued seriously that Isaiah was speaking of a virgin but it cannot be seriously dismissed that the word (almah) has no possibility of referring to a miraculous conception.
The basic idea is that too much is made of Isa 7:14 by probably Jews and skeptics and told to people like yourself and me as if Isa 7:14 and Matthews use of "virgin" proves anything about anything.
So you are not presenting the facts, you are presenting a beat up argument that proves nothing.




I think the prophecy happened just as Isaiah had predicted. Ahaz got his butt kicked and Ephraim and Damascus got their butts kicked by Assyria also.
Nobody refers to Isa 7:14 as being Messianic by itself, it is Isa 9:6,7 that is Messianic and that child is the child of Isa 7:14. The child in Isa 9:6,7 is the great light that was seen in the region of Galilee (Isa 9:1)

This 'beat up argument' is still cited by a few billion Christians as fact. But I have seen the trend lately of downplaying this bogus 'prophesy' in light of the embarrassment of knowing the gospel authors lied about it to the credulous masses. So I'm familiar with this new strategy of "Oh, let's stop looking behind the curtain at 7:14 - the new claim is that it's really Isa 9 that is Messianic..."
Unfortunately, according to those pesky experts again, Isa 9 is not Messianic, neither is Isa 53, or any of the previous Suffering Servant stories. Those are just the dishonest claims of the early church, desperate to sell their new snake oil to the ignorant pagans. In fact, the only verse in Isa that is recognized as Messianic by those experts is 59:20, which simply states a redeemer will come, from the line of David. Not from a virgin, not a son of a god, not crucified, not resurrected, not from Bethlehem, or Nazareth. These are the facts that gullible Christians have swallowed for 2000 years - so the fact that most Christians will continue to push back from this fatal threat to their lifelong desire to see Grandma in heaven.... is of course not in the least surprising. Doesn't change the Truth though.

 

[Brian2]

This 'beat up argument' is still cited by a few billion Christians as fact. But I have seen the trend lately of downplaying this bogus 'prophesy' in light of the embarrassment of knowing the gospel authors lied about it to the credulous masses. So I'm familiar with this new strategy of "Oh, let's stop looking behind the curtain at 7:14 - the new claim is that it's really Isa 9 that is Messianic..."
Unfortunately, according to those pesky experts again, Isa 9 is not Messianic, neither is Isa 53, or any of the previous Suffering Servant stories. Those are just the dishonest claims of the early church, desperate to sell their new snake oil to the ignorant pagans. In fact, the only verse in Isa that is recognized as Messianic by those experts is 59:20, which simply states a redeemer will come, from the line of David. Not from a virgin, not a son of a god, not crucified, not resurrected, not from Bethlehem, or Nazareth. These are the facts that gullible Christians have swallowed for 2000 years - so the fact that most Christians will continue to push back from this fatal threat to their lifelong desire to see Grandma in heaven.... is of course not in the least surprising. Doesn't change the Truth though.

The first Jewish Christians spoke from what they knew of Jesus and what they saw in the scriptures that spoke of these things, and that includes the rejection of the Messiah, His death and resurrection and His means of death, crucifixion.
You say the Jews are the experts but you choose the Jews who agree with you about Jesus as being the experts and those who do not as being liars.
And of course the truth is that you don't believe any Jews when they speak about their scriptures anyway except those Jews who do not believe those scriptures.
Your certainty about what you say does not come from reasoned argument but from your belief that the supernatural is not real, which has probably transformed from a lack of belief to a belief that it is not true and an antagonism towards it, and that has probably been learned from other skeptics who spread the same sort of lies about Jesus and the scriptures.
And you should listen to me because I'm your elder by a year.

 

[Firenze]

The first Jewish Christians spoke from what they knew of Jesus and what they saw in the scriptures that spoke of these things, and that includes the rejection of the Messiah, His death and resurrection and His means of death, crucifixion.
You say the Jews are the experts but you choose the Jews who agree with you about Jesus as being the experts and those who do not as being liars.
And of course the truth is that you don't believe any Jews when they speak about their scriptures anyway except those Jews who do not believe those scriptures.
Your certainty about what you say does not come from reasoned argument but from your belief that the supernatural is not real, which has probably transformed from a lack of belief to a belief that it is not true and an antagonism towards it, and that has probably been learned from other skeptics who spread the same sort of lies about Jesus and the scriptures.
And you should listen to me because I'm your elder by a year.

Clearly advanced age is a poor substitute for knowledge. I have chosen to listen to the Jews that are the undisputed authorities on answering the question - 'How will we know the Messiah?' Christians have chosen to ignore them and instead be duped by much later Jews that decided to commit fraud to fool the ignorant pagans and invent a new religion - one that is now... and makes Jesus weep..... a multi trillion dollar 3 Card Monty.. It's like rejecting the university faculty and listening the to lazy students instead. If you're comfortable with that, then that's on you. But you have no rebuttal to the claim of what the original Messianic prophesies said - From the line of David, A fully human, great leader and judge, who will rebuild the Temple, and unite the entire world under Judaism - and he won't be such an incompetent buffoon that he'll have to come back a second time to do his job. Those are the attributes. This is the Messiah the Jews still wait for. And instead of respecting the experts, early fringe Messianic Jews hooked up with Paul and decided they were too desperate for a Messiah, so they invented one. It's fraud, it's dishonest, it's transparent - and Christians should be embarrassed to have been witless pawns to this scam. But here you are - tithing and proving Barnum was right.

 

[muhammad_isa]

From the line of David, A fully human, great leader and judge, who will rebuild the Temple, and unite the entire world under Judaism - and he won't be such an incompetent buffoon that he'll have to come back a second time to do his job. Those are the attributes. This is the Messiah the Jews still wait for..

They'll be waiting a long time.

Fully human, yes.
Rebuild the temple, no.
Unite the entire world, yes.
Under Judaism, not exactly. Under truth, yes.
Come back a second time .. yes.

The first time around, the vast majority weren't listening to him, and attempted to kill him, along with John the Baptist.
Second time around, there will be a lot of people happy to see him.
G-d's plans are the best of plans.

 

[Brian2]

Clearly advanced age is a poor substitute for knowledge. I have chosen to listen to the Jews that are the undisputed authorities on answering the question - 'How will we know the Messiah?' Christians have chosen to ignore them and instead be duped by much later Jews that decided to commit fraud to fool the ignorant pagans and invent a new religion - one that is now... and makes Jesus weep..... a multi trillion dollar 3 Card Monty.. It's like rejecting the university faculty and listening the to lazy students instead. If you're comfortable with that, then that's on you. But you have no rebuttal to the claim of what the original Messianic prophesies said - From the line of David, A fully human, great leader and judge, who will rebuild the Temple, and unite the entire world under Judaism - and he won't be such an incompetent buffoon that he'll have to come back a second time to do his job. Those are the attributes. This is the Messiah the Jews still wait for. And instead of respecting the experts, early fringe Messianic Jews hooked up with Paul and decided they were too desperate for a Messiah, so they invented one. It's fraud, it's dishonest, it's transparent - and Christians should be embarrassed to have been witless pawns to this scam. But here you are - tithing and proving Barnum was right.

I choose to listen to the Jews who knew Jesus and that He was born of a virgin and rose from the dead etc and so know more about which parts of the Hebrew scriptures are Messianic.
This includes prophecy about the rejection of the Messiah by the Jews and the reason the Messiah is to come twice.
You choose to reject Jesus and have chosen one of the thousand reasons that people make up for doing that.
Jesus is fully human. Jesus is a great leader and judge of everyone. Jesus is building the Temple of God. Jesus is uniting everything in the entire universe in Himself, the Jewish Messiah, the King of the Jews.

 

[Firenze]

I choose to listen to the Jews who knew Jesus and that He was born of a virgin and rose from the dead etc and so know more about which parts of the Hebrew scriptures are Messianic.
This includes prophecy about the rejection of the Messiah by the Jews and the reason the Messiah is to come twice.
You choose to reject Jesus and have chosen one of the thousand reasons that people make up for doing that.
Jesus is fully human. Jesus is a great leader and judge of everyone. Jesus is building the Temple of God. Jesus is uniting everything in the entire universe in Himself, the Jewish Messiah, the King of the Jews.

I thought it was your god that knew the Messiah - and he inspired the Prophets to write about him. Jesus is a fraud. Any Rabbi or OT scholar could tell you - but you're not interested, because that would require the level of intellectual integrity - and confront you with the abject fear that you really won't see grandma when you die - that I have found over decades that Christians lack. No worries. I led the horse to water....

 

[Brian2]

I thought it was your god that knew the Messiah - and he inspired the Prophets to write about him. Jesus is a fraud. Any Rabbi or OT scholar could tell you - but you're not interested, because that would require the level of intellectual integrity - and confront you with the abject fear that you really won't see grandma when you die - that I have found over decades that Christians lack. No worries. I led the horse to water....

Very kind of you to try.

 

[Muffled]

..so you say .. I don't think that you made that up.
Somebody else did.

I believe I do not make things up. It is Isaiah 53.

 

[Muffled]

Never said otherwise. The point is that there are less than a dozen actual Messianic prophesies in the OT - as stated by the experts. They don't include a virgin birth, or many others claimed by the early church. So when the gospels claim a virgin birth to be a sign of the Messiah - they are lying. It's really that simple. Christians now think there are hundreds of prophesies that point to Jesus. I'm afraid they are simply ignorant of how the gospel authors quote mined verses in the OT - pretended they were Messianic - then squeezed Jesus into them. It's the biggest fraud in history. And all Christians have to do is listen to the OT Jews, and read the OT for themselves. It's why we have fewer Christians every day in nations that value Education.....

You can see the Truth for yourself:

The Messiah - Key beliefs in Judaism - GCSE Religious Studies Revision - AQA - BBC Bitesize

I believe the virgin birth is in Isa. 7:14. Jews are obligated to try to disprove that prophecies refer to Jesus so they are anything but objective.