Put There By The People

[Rival]

Why do you perceive it as an overreaction? What is causing you to have that conclusion?

Something very important I would like to point out here that relates to this that was alluded to by @allfoak - media we pay attention to is not a representative sample of what is going on. This is important to remember not just for election coverage, but everything. Without looking at sound data, it is too easy for all the noise to fool us into thinking something is more common or serious than it actually is. Riots and protests about elections are not new. All of this needs to be put in context. Today, in this overconnected era of twitter feeds, blog commentators, and crap journalism, there is more noise than ever. The signal gets lost. We need to remember to look for the signal.

I haven't found that signal yet myself. Often, it takes time for it to be uncovered by academics and historians. But just speaking personally as someone who finds this inauguration to be a farce, it's hard to write myself off as overreacting when events have only confirmed my unease.

Shouting NOT MY PRESIDENT in the street is an overreaction. Smashing things, burning things, beating people, is an overreaction.

 

[Quintessence]

Shouting NOT MY PRESIDENT in the street is an overreaction. Smashing things, burning things, beating people, is an overreaction.

That's one appraisal of the situation. If a person is feeling the need to do this, there are some powerful emotions at work. I would not be the sort to invalidate their feelings by calling their behavior an "overreaction." I might question the wisdom of such behavior, but I will not dismiss the emotions of others. I hate it when people do that to me, so I really don't like doing it to others.

 

[Nietzsche]

Shouting NOT MY PRESIDENT in the street is an overreaction. Smashing things, burning things, beating people, is an overreaction.

I imagine this is just what happens you elect a b-list super-villain, who treats his cabinet appointments like he's about to have a fist-fight with Captain Planet.

 

[allfoak]

Why do you perceive it as an overreaction? What is causing you to have that conclusion?

Something very important I would like to point out here that relates to this that was alluded to by @allfoak - media we pay attention to is not a representative sample of what is going on. This is important to remember not just for election coverage, but everything. Without looking at sound data, it is too easy for all the noise to fool us into thinking something is more common or serious than it actually is. Riots and protests about elections are not new. All of this needs to be put in context. Today, in this overconnected era of twitter feeds, blog commentators, and crap journalism, there is more noise than ever. The signal gets lost. We need to remember to look for the signal.

I haven't found that signal yet myself. Often, it takes time for it to be uncovered by academics and historians. But just speaking personally as someone who finds this inauguration to be a farce, it's hard to write myself off as overreacting when events have only confirmed my unease.

I find it interesting that so many average people are so worried about what is happening in the world.
I have been feeling this way since i was a child.
I was considered crazy back then, a worry wart, but i was able to see all of this coming many moons ago.
I had to quit talking about what i considered evidence, no one would listen, or worse.

 

[Revoltingest]

That's one appraisal of the situation. If a person is feeling the need to do this, there are some powerful emotions at work. I would not be the sort to invalidate their feelings by calling their behavior an "overreaction." I might question the wisdom of such behavior, but I will not dismiss the emotions of others. I hate it when people do that to me, so I really don't like doing it to others.

Many reactions are appropriate.
But there are still many anti-Trump types who do "over-react".
We see it here with cries of "Facist!", "Nazi!", etc.
And in the real world, they're not just crazed, they're also violent....
Anti-Trump protests intensify on morning of inauguration
Inauguration protests, acts of vandalism as Donald Trump takes office - CNNPolitics.com

 

[Kuzcotopia]

And we are not running riot in the streets.

Who's running riot in the streets? What does that even mean?

 

[Revoltingest]

Who's running riot in the streets? What does that even mean?

Smashing windows, preventing other people's freedom of movement, etc.

 

[Kuzcotopia]

Many reactions are appropriate.
But there are still many anti-Trump types who do "over-react".
We see it here with cries of "Facist!", "Nazi!", etc.
And in the real world, they're not just crazed, they're also violent....
Anti-Trump protests intensify on morning of inauguration
Inauguration protests, acts of vandalism as Donald Trump takes office - CNNPolitics.com

This took about two seconds to find on the 2008 election. I see a complete and total equavalence between the 2008 and 2016 protests.

What an accepting pun!

Conservatives forget history in discrediting Trump protesters



Equivalence aside, discussion of the violence from either the 2008 or 2016 elections is not particularly relevant.

 

[Revoltingest]

This took about two seconds to find on the 2008 election. I see a complete and total equavalence between the 2008 and 2016 protests.

What an accepting pun!

Conservatives forget history in discrediting Trump protesters



Equivalence aside, discussion of the violence from either the 2008 or 2016 elections is not particularly relevant.

I don't see in your links that anti-Obama protesters became violent during inauguration time.
There's bad behavior on both sides, but anti-Trumpers take the cake this time around.

 

[Quintessence]

Many reactions are appropriate.

As I said to Rival, to me telling someone they are "overreacting" is disrespecting what they feel, which I do not like to do because it is very hurtful. People feel what they feel. I find it better to frame it with different words than to tell someone in distress that they are "overreacting." Saying that can be a slap in the face. Instead say "I know you are hurting... let's talk" and try to steer them away from unlawful or unwise behaviors.

Yes, easier said than done.

 

[Revoltingest]

As I said to Rival, to me telling someone they are "overreacting" is disrespecting what they feel, which I do not like to do because it is very hurtful. People feel what they feel. I find it better to frame it with different words than to tell someone in distress that they are "overreacting." Saying that can be a slap in the face. Instead say "I know you are hurting... let's talk" and try to steer them away from unlawful or unwise behaviors.

Yes, easier said than done.

Some people do need to be told that their behavior is wrongful over-reaction.
Their feelings don't deserve respect when they abuse others, vandalize or assault.

 

[Kuzcotopia]

I don't see in your links that anti-Obama protesters became violent during inauguration time.
There's bad behavior on both sides, but anti-Trumpers take the cake this time around.

You win.

I was using a false equivalency. it seems that even though there are moral problems on both sides, one was clearly less moral.

I agree, and I condemn the violence from today's protests. Those few people, passionate as they are, are failing the process.

One way to stop it, or help reduce it, might be to for the president to take a more conciliatory tone. . . are leaders ever responsible for the actions of those they govern? How easy would this be for Trump?

 

[Revoltingest]

You win.

I was using a false equivalency. it seems that even though there are moral problems on both sides, one was clearly less moral.

I agree, and I condemn the violence from today's protests. Those few people, passionate as they are, are failing the process.

One way to stop it, or help reduce it, might be to for the president to take a more conciliatory tone. . . are leaders ever responsible for the actions of those they govern? How easy would this be for Trump?

I wonder if Trump will behave more appropriately for the office.
That would be nice, but I'm not betting on it.

 

[oldbadger]

I understand that many U.S. citizens are angered by Trump's win, but I am having trouble understanding this over-reaction (which it is, in my opinion). Why?

Well, because he was elected. According to how the U.S. electoral system works, he was put there the same way as any other President.

However, within living memory, my country has had two unelected Prime Ministers: the current one, Theresa May, and Gordon Brown (who succeeded Tony Blair). No-one put these two people there; the subjects didn't vote them in. Also, our PMs can hold office slightly longer than the U.S. President.

To make matters worse this current unelected leader is in-charge of Brexit, one of the most monumental moves in modern British history, and no-one put her there.

And we are not running riot in the streets.

Different attitudes I guess.

Mmmmmm................
Vice Presidents have taken over office before, just as Brit Ministers have. Both were elected to get up there, and Parliament can vote ours out much more quickly, which of course has happened on occasions.

The Brit system is easily the best, imo.

 

[Quintessence]

Some people do need to be told that their behavior is wrongful over-reaction.
Their feelings don't deserve respect when they abuse others, vandalize or assault.

I don't agree. Everyone, without exception, deserves that basic level of respect and courtesy. Failure to grant that basic level of courtesy and respect only deepens divides and further demonizes and dehumanizes others. I can't approve of that. If you want to be that guy who punches people in the face instead of extending an open palm, so be it, but that is not my way.

 

[Rival]

As I said to Rival, to me telling someone they are "overreacting" is disrespecting what they feel, which I do not like to do because it is very hurtful. People feel what they feel. I find it better to frame it with different words than to tell someone in distress that they are "overreacting." Saying that can be a slap in the face. Instead say "I know you are hurting... let's talk" and try to steer them away from unlawful or unwise behaviors.

Yes, easier said than done.

I don't care about how people feel. I care about their behaviour towards other people who have done nothing other than exercise their right to vote. Being mature, accepting the outcome and moving on is the adult way of doing things. Rioting in the streets will not help your cause. Instead, why not try to express those feelings through art or poetry? 20-somethings should not need to be told to stop violently protesting. I have no problems with peaceful protests, banners, signs etc., but when cars are burned and people hurt? No, this is unacceptable.

 

[Quintessence]

I don't care about how people feel. I care about their behaviour towards other people who have done nothing other than exercise their right to vote. Being mature, accepting the outcome and moving on is the adult way of doing things. Rioting in the streets will not help your cause. instead, why not try to express those feelings through art or poetry? 20-somethings should not need to be told to stop violently protesting. I have no problems with peaceful protests, banners, signs etc., but when cars are burned and people hurt? No, this is unacceptable.

Operating off the premise that this behavior is unacceptable, how do you propose resolving the problem?

It doesn't seem to me that ignoring and disregarding people's feelings is a good approach. It is a good way to get people more upset and add fuel to the fire. In many cases, unlawful behavior is the result of people feeling shut out, ignored, disregarded, not listened to. When people get told "I don't care how you feel" it is basically the same as saying "I don't care about you" and "you aren't important." What other avenue is there to get others to pay attention to you than throw a temper tantrum? It's an act of desperation, isn't it? So how do you engage people and listen to them before it gets to that point? How do you temper that desperation? It is also good to look deeper, beyond the person, and to the big picture. What factors in our culture and environment drove this behavior? What might we do about those things?

There needs to be, on the whole, a lot more listening. Unfortunately, in spite of listening being a skill, it isn't generally taught as part of our education. Makes things harder, as we end up getting judgmental instead of listening to people. So many conflicts and things could be avoided with more listening and leaving our egos at the door. And yes, all of this applies as much to the people who are protesting as the people whining about the protesters!

 

[Rival]

Operating off the premise that this behavior is unacceptable, how do you propose resolving the problem?

It doesn't seem to me that ignoring and disregarding people's feelings is a good approach. It is a good way to get people more upset and add fuel to the fire. In many cases, unlawful behavior is the result of people feeling shut out, ignored, disregarded, not listened to. When people get told "I don't care how you feel" it is basically the same as saying "I don't care about you" and "you aren't important." What other avenue is there to get others to pay attention to you than throw a temper tantrum? It's an act of desperation, isn't it? So how do you engage people and listen to them before it gets to that point? How do you temper that desperation? It is also good to look deeper, beyond the person, and to the big picture. What factors in our culture and environment drove this behavior? What might we do about those things?

There needs to be, on the whole, a lot more listening. Unfortunately, in spite of listening being a skill, it isn't generally taught as part of our education. Makes things harder, as we end up getting judgmental instead of listening to people. So many conflicts and things could be avoided with more listening and leaving our egos at the door. And yes, all of this applies as much to the people who are protesting as the people whining about the protesters!

The problem here is that you and I are on a very different plain, so to speak. My emotions always take a backseat and I scrutinise them very carefully. For instance, it took me a whole year to tell the guy I loved that I was in love with him. I have trouble sympathising with people in situations that I see as very straightforward. I prefer a very logical, distant approach that gets things done. People's feelings, including my own, are mostly irrelevent. I remember when I was a child and that tsunami hit Japan, the only thing my mother said was,
"That's just nature's way of keeping the population down."
And, whether you or anyone else likes it or not, that is the way I see the world.
Trump is the President. He was voted in the same way as every other President. Your team lost, now go eat a doughnut and be happy. If you feel the need to protest, take to it peacefully and hurt no-one.
In other words, Quint, I don't try to be a harsh person, I just have all the emotion of a used teabag helped along by a very authoritarian childhood.

 

[Quintessence]

The problem here is that you and I are on a very different plain, so to speak. My emotions always take a backseat and I scrutinise them very carefully.

Haha! Perhaps I've left the wrong impression. You and I aren't so distinct in this regard.

I like to be mindful of other people's perspectives, and think about what would be most helpful for them where they are coming from. I like to get my own ego out of the picture and try to look at things from their point of view. I aim to understand rather than condemn. I would bet you are pretty good at that, because leaving your own feelings at the door and being able to scrutinize them is important for doing that. It allows a more impartial, objective appraisal of what is going on.

Still, it is worth thinking about that question - how do we reach out to people and prevent the few more violent outbursts from happening, if that is our goal?

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't agree. Everyone, without exception, deserves that basic level of respect and courtesy. Failure to grant that basic level of courtesy and respect only deepens divides and further demonizes and dehumanizes others. I can't approve of that. If you want to be that guy who punches people in the face instead of extending an open palm, so be it, but that is not my way.

I think there might be some miscommunication.
I oppose over-reactions such as punching someone in the face.
And I would criticize someone for doing that.
Let their feelings be hurt for such criticism.