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Putin apologists.

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I feel sorry for those who don't see how masterfully he's handling Ukraine and other tasks. Of course he's done dumb things, everyone does, but to live under such a self-administered filter for what is going on is too bad.
No. He's in a hole with his puppeteers pulling his strings who are certainly not 'masterfully' handling the situation. Lol.

So far Putin is yelling BOO! And the Biden administration is too afraid to face him tact for tact..
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
No. He's in a hole with his puppeteers pulling his strings who are certainly not 'masterfully' handling the situation. Lol.

So far Putin is yelling BOO! And the Biden administration is too afraid to face him tact for tact..

He's yelling "BOO!" while killing people and holding nuclear retaliation over their heads.

I certainly hope leaders are treading carefully and with "tact."
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
There have been those who've openly defended Putin and his invasion, yet the only reasons I've been able to glean from what's been given has either been A.) Those harboring butthurt towards "the west" in general, or B.) MAGA cultists who, because Trump licked Putin's boots, feel obligated to follow suit out of loyalty.
Nothing actually substantiated or rational, unless I've missed or overlooked something?

I guess it would depend on how you're defining what it means to "openly defend Putin and his invasion." Do you have any examples?

What I've noticed this past week and a half is that anyone who doesn't go along with the narrative that Putin is Hitler and that Russians are evil is immediately castigated as some kind of "apologist." It's the standard "those-who-are-not-with-us-are-against-us" line of thinking which we should be trying to avoid.

As I noted in another thread, the US is still neutral, as Congress has not yet declared war on Russia. Therefore, I see no clear-cut "patriotic" obligation to hate the Russian people at this time. When people aren't even allowed to have a rational, neutral thought about this conflict without being attacked, then we're truly entering a dangerous time.

In the final analysis, if this is to be considered a patriotic issue, then Americans will tend to be patriotic towards their own nation. If your goal here is to drum up American patriotism and nationalism in order to bolster support for Ukraine against Russia, then there could be ideological side effects in doing so. Keep in mind that nothing happens in a vacuum, and ideas and events can often connect to each other.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
I guess it would depend on how you're defining what it means to "openly defend Putin and his invasion." Do you have any examples?

What I've noticed this past week and a half is that anyone who doesn't go along with the narrative that Putin is Hitler and that Russians are evil is immediately castigated as some kind of "apologist." It's the standard "those-who-are-not-with-us-are-against-us" line of thinking which we should be trying to avoid.

As I noted in another thread, the US is still neutral, as Congress has not yet declared war on Russia. Therefore, I see no clear-cut "patriotic" obligation to hate the Russian people at this time. When people aren't even allowed to have a rational, neutral thought about this conflict without being attacked, then we're truly entering a dangerous time.

In the final analysis, if this is to be considered a patriotic issue, then Americans will tend to be patriotic towards their own nation. If your goal here is to drum up American patriotism and nationalism in order to bolster support for Ukraine against Russia, then there could be ideological side effects in doing so. Keep in mind that nothing happens in a vacuum, and ideas and events can often connect to each other.

Interesting how you keep mentioning Putin being Hitler and hating the Russian people, because nobody has said or suggested these things. Why do you feel the need to misrepresent other people's sentiments? Everyone knows that the people of Russia aren't to blame for what their leadership does, nor has Putin's atrocities reached the level of mass genocide and death camps.

How is there any ethical ambiguity when it comes to invading a sovereign, democratic nation unprovoked?
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Trump Derangement Syndrome. In other words, Trump supporters are deranged to the point of supporting Putin.
I knew what he meant, but it didn't make any sense. What's deranged about pointing out the fact that Trump has a well documented history of habitually praising and prostrating to Putin, even after he green-lit the invasion? I think he's just too ashamed and salty to admit that his orange senpai turned out to be a piece of **** after all.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Yes it may be, a bit. What I have seen, in several places, is the use of false equivalence to try to make out that this invasion, its destruction of cities and callous taking of civilian lives, is not something that can be criticised because of allegedly similar things done in the past by other nations.

So it's not exactly support, but rather a weaselly evasion of condemnation.
I've not seen this here on RF, nor in the media.
Any examples?
I don't know any MAGA who sides with the invasion,
so I'm strongly inclined to agree with the claim of TDS.

On the plus side, Trump's apparent approval of Putin
should be harming whatever 2024 chances he has.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
No. He's in a hole with his puppeteers pulling his strings who are certainly not 'masterfully' handling the situation. Lol.

So far Putin is yelling BOO! And the Biden administration is too afraid to face him tact for tact..
I'm no fan of Sleepy Joe, but I say he's
handling the invasion appropriately.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Interesting how you keep mentioning Putin being Hitler and hating the Russian people, because nobody has said or suggested these things. Why do you feel the need to misrepresent other people's sentiments?

Because it's implied in the overall tone and content of the rhetoric. Those of us who were alive during the Cold War should be able to recognize the tactics quite clearly. I've seen it many, many times before.

The fact that some people feel the need to bring up "Putin apologists" at all is quite an interesting phenomenon, in and of itself. Where do you think that comes from?

Everyone knows that the people of Russia aren't to blame for what their leadership does, nor has Putin's atrocities reached the level of mass genocide and death camps.

I've seen numerous comparisons to Hitler and Nazi Germany, as well as numerous comparisons to the Soviet Union and Stalin. This is ostensibly considered a valid "equivalence" in many people's eyes, who simultaneously cry "false equivalence" when comparisons to the West are made.

I agree that the people of Russia aren't to blame for what their leadership does, although I'm not entirely convinced that "everyone" knows this. Are you?

How is there any ethical ambiguity when it comes to invading a sovereign, democratic nation unprovoked?

This is not about ethics. If it were, then your statement in your OP about 'Those harboring butthurt towards "the west" in general' would be immediately invalidated. Whenever someone cries "whataboutism" or "false equivalence," I consider that a tacit admission that their position is NOT based on ethics or morality at all.

Once that's established, then we can look at it from a more objective and rational perspective.

And you apparently missed the main point I was trying to make. Think of what you're saying here. You're suggesting that there are "Putin apologists" not because they actually love Putin or approve of what he's doing or that they have some special love for Russia.

A.) Those harboring butthurt towards "the west" in general, or B.) MAGA cultists who, because Trump licked Putin's boots, feel obligated to follow suit out of loyalty.
Nothing actually substantiated or rational, unless I've missed or overlooked something?

Regarding A and B, you mention the West and MAGA cultists, which are mainly phenomena here closer to home, not in Russia or Ukraine. You've taken the focus away from the events in Ukraine and Russia and focusing more on domestic politics and dissension within the United States.

If we assume that we (the West) are facing some grave, mortal threat in Putin, then stoking the flames of internal divisions within our country seems counterproductive and unwise.

On the other side of it, to make it into a patriotic/nationalistic issue ("for us or against us") can also have some serious side effects. While it's often used as a tool to promote national unity in a time of crisis, it's oftentimes an ideological flirtation with the right-wing side of the political spectrum. That's where those MAGA cultists are. In plainer terms, they are "America Firsters," although they have their own America-centered version of patriotism and nationalism which runs counter to the more prevalent interventionist, internationalist view that has dominated the foreign policy of America since WW2.

However, the interventionists have had to heavily draw upon elements of American patriotism and American exceptionalism in order to drum up support for their geopolitical aspirations, often justified as in the name of America's national interests or "our way of life," as many often put it. Therein lies the ideological trap that we've put ourselves.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Okay, so what in your opinion should he be doing?
The hawkish view....
tumblr_nujc6jrLmh1ry46hlo1_500.gif
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The left is just a bunch of self serving liars.

They are doing nothing but lip service about sanctions and condemnation while still at the same time, buying Russian oil.

Ahem...while publicly calling for future purchases to stop...gack... in front of the American people .... ahem.

Cough..
What? Where is the left "buying Russian oil"? Oil is an international commodity. We really do not target who we buy oil from, and the last I read the US is self sufficient when it comes to oil and gas. Echoing right wing talking points does not make them facts.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Well I hope it does not come to that. We tend to have the same success rate as Sam when we do that.
I really like guns. I once was a design engineer for
military aircraft. I also like missiles & big ships.
But these things have their limitations & risks.
They must be used with very careful thought,
& consideration of alternatives.
Unintended consequences are a....girl dog.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
I knew what he meant, but it didn't make any sense. What's deranged about pointing out the fact that Trump has a well documented history of habitually praising and prostrating to Putin, even after he green-lit the invasion? I think he's just too ashamed and salty to admit that his orange senpai turned out to be a piece of **** after all.

I just wanted to continue my trend of flipping the TDS response back on Trump supporters. ;)
 
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