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Quest for the historical Jesus

steeltoes

Junior member
Maybe it's not a big deal but why must we accept the story to be true? We have the literature, isn't that all that is necessary for a religion to take root? Are non-Christians obligated for some reason to believe that the story is true, that this Jesus was the founder of Christianity when in reality all that is necessary is that we have a story written down, true or not, or partially true, or not necessarily true at all? What is it that we know for sure besides having some unknown authored literature? I am asking because I really would like to know.
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
OK, we can imagine the life of an itinerant preacher at the time in question although I would think that itinerant preachers with a few latchers on for a meal ticket would do quite well, especially the one we read about in the gospels since virtually every seen has him getting away from the crowds forming about him.

The baptism and the crucifixion, aren't we assuming what we are trying to prove by allowing that we know them to be historical? How have these scenes been corroborated, or have they?

Most scholars are in concensus on the baptism and crucifiction.

The crowds reported in the gospels have been by some scholars the hellenistic gentile authors competing with the Emporers divinity. Playing to a roman audience. Emporers used to be in coliseums built so that sound would carry, when we take legends like "the sermon on the mount" not only do we have contradictions from Luke to Matthew on where it took place, but some scholars state only a small crowd could her his words at best, and all the importance of his parables is lost if you ramble them off as written. We also have the logistics of crowds that size even being able to stop work long enough to attend such a event given the population density of Galilee. The beauty of this sermon, each parable needs to be thought of for a bit to get the most out of it. Some scholars think this was a collection of his parables collected and compiled for this biblical sermon.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Maybe it's not a big deal but why must we accept the story to be true? We have the literature, isn't that all that is necessary for a religion to take root? Are non-Christians obligated for some reason to believe that the story is true, that this Jesus was the founder of Christianity when in reality all that is necessary is that we have a story written down, true or not, or partially true, or not necessarily true at all? What is it that we know for sure besides having some unknown authored literature? I am asking because I really would like to know.

Why dont you research historical jesus, even the wiki link will give you a overview.

Historical Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

All I can say is opinions vary, and different aspects have more and less historicity.

Study up, then you can make your own decision.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
this ^ is a mischacterisation of the recent increase in popularity of the mythic jesus idea. It has nothing to do with quote mining, it is simply because the internet enables people to encounter the mythic view and think about it for themselves.

It enables people who haven't read much in the way of primary sources to talk about texts they can't actually read except in translation and about a time, cultures, oral/written tradition, religious traditions, and so forth they do not know enough about such that they can judge the veracity of the claims made (e.g., the usual conflation of the Persian Mithra to the Hellenistic Mithras dating from after most of the N.T. was already composed, mischaracterization of gnostics and paganism, mischaracterization of ancient historiography, etc.). It also means that a guy like Carrier can talk about using Bayes' Theroem in a way that doesn't actually concern Bayes' theorem at all, but Bayesian probability, or a method designed to update one's beliefs given particular starting conditions (e.g., if I am convinced that a particular canditate will win some election), and particular new information (e.g., initial polling results), where hopefully a Bayesian approach will allow me to update my beliefs in an optimal way (which is why Bayesian networks and Bayesian probability are so common in machine learning). But as most people are as unfamiliar with mathematics as Carrier seems to be (or more so), numbers look very convincing. The social sciences have been increasingly basing research on bad math for decades, and I guess Carrier believes the time is ripe for historians to create garbage analyses which look good because they have numbers and equations and stuff.

Before the internet existed there was no access to the mythic view, nobody ever heard about it.
They had. Lots. In fact, a lot of current mythicist literature relies (or at least references) amateurs from a century ago like Drews. The reason we refer to a "quest for the historical Jesus" at all is because of the translation of a century old book Von Reimarus zu Wrede which had, in English, the title The Quest of the Historical Jesus. As Schweitzer pointed out then, the quest basically began with someone trying to undermine Christianity (Reimaruss), proceeded with a number of defenses which moved the discussion of Jesus Christ form a purely religious one to a historical arena as well, ended (as far as the first defenses were concerned) with the devastating critique by Strauß which showed that the attempts to rationalize the miracles in the gospels were doomed. Schweitzer included a critique of the "mythic Jesus" view even then (i.e., in the very early 20th century), and demonstrated that most of the history of the quest has been dominated by challenges to the Christian faith.


It is never mentioned in schools or universities, strictly forbidden to even entertain it as a possibility; but the internet levels the playing field by enabling a much greater degree of free discussion.
Perhaps it is "never mentioned" in mainstream academia because, after over a century of various mythicist proposals to explain the data we do have thoroughly failed, the last bastion for the mythicist is ignorance. After all, the historical Jesus is almost guarenteed to contradict Christian faith, has done so quite frequently in ways which would offend many (perhaps most) practicing Christians, and has in general included everything from discussions of Jesus' sexuality to the ways in which the gospel authors, Paul and the N.T. distorted Jesus' message. Why would mythicism be taboo?
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Re the quest for the historical Jesus, apparently we are in the throes of a third quest for the historical Jesus, wherein scholars of the third quest have been accused of mixing apologetics with scholarship and being one sided. Will there ever be any agreement? Will the third quest go the way of the first two?
The so-called "third phase" is characterized by an interest in things like socio-cultural questions and less on deciding historicity based upon flawed textual analyses like form criticism (Formgeschichte). In other words, a broadening of the field to incorporate everything from memory research and orality studies to linguistics.

The field has always had those whose work is more christology than historiography. Also, like just about every debate in ancient history, from whether or not women were allowed in the Greek theatre to literacy rates to the historical Socrates, there will always be disagreements. That's pretty much the nature of every field. So the "third phase" will go the way of every single other debate about ancient history which is suitably broad and complex: there will be continuous disagreement with some areas that basically everybody is in agreement on.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Just for fun, assume that I am way more familiar with all these matters than you are -- that I can run circles around you regarding the evidence.
I'm sorry but, in all honesty, that would be extremely unlikely - particularly given ...
I don't follow the scholars as they debate this issue but I'll be happy to unemotionally discuss it with you. My best guess is that no man lived in first century Judea upon whom the gospel stories were based.
So, assuming that you acknowledge the fact that the mythicist position is far removed from the broad consensus of scholarship, and noting that "you don't follow the scholars," I do not quite understand why you would consider credible a "best guess" rejecting that consensus.

I hesitate 'debating' the matter in part because it is certain to be an underwhelming rerun of any number of threads that have already run their course and, in part, because it seems a waste of time debating someone who is willing to simply dismiss scholarship and denigrate the scholars who've produced it (and who you don't follow) by pretentiously asserting ...
I agree. It has been simply inconceivable in our culture to question the historicity of Jesus. But that is changing. I think the historical Jesus will go the way of the historical Adam with time.
... without a shred of evidence.

Your entire argument appears to be: "I don't really know anything but the scholars are cowards therefore Jesus is a myth."
 
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maxfreakout

Active Member
Your entire argument appears to be: "I don't really know anything but the scholars are cowards therefore Jesus is a myth."

the entire argument to the contrary goes "scholars believe in historical Jesus, therefore historical Jesus must have existed"

The whole argument rests upon an appeal to the authority of 'scholars'
 

steeltoes

Junior member
My understanding for one of the arguments is that the gospel story was almost unheard of until the second half of the second century which makes some consider if this Jesus was really the founder of Christianity as opposed to the intrigue of the mythology of a dying and rising Son of God that caught on much later. It could be written as early as 67CE or so but can the church really claim papal succession all the way back to Peter, or can we go back to fourth century Rome which is very impressive in itself but find ourselves relying on folk/pseudo history to connect Rome back to first century Jerusalem?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
the entire argument to the contrary goes "scholars believe in historical Jesus, therefore historical Jesus must have existed"

The whole argument rests upon an appeal to the authority of 'scholars'
You are seriously confused;
I. Argumentum ad Verecundiam: (argument from authority) the fallacy of appealing to the testimony of an authority outside his special field. Anyone can give opinions or advice; the fallacy only occurs when the reason for assenting to the conclusion is based on following the recommendation or advice of an improper authority.

[source - emphasis added]
This fallacy is committed when the person in question is not a legitimate authority on the subject. More formally, if person A is not qualified to make reliable claims in subject S, then the argument will be fallacious.

This sort of reasoning is fallacious when the person in question is not an expert. In such cases the reasoning is flawed because the fact that an unqualified person makes a claim does not provide any justification for the claim. The claim could be true, but the fact that an unqualified person made the claim does not provide any rational reason to accept the claim as true.

[source - emphasis added]
Argument from authority (argumentum ad verecundiam), also authoritative argument and appeal to authority, is an inductive-reasoning argument that often takes the form of a statistical syllogism. Although certain classes of argument from authority can constitute strong inductive arguments, the appeal to authority is often applied fallaciously: either the authority is not a subject-matter expert, or there is no consensus among experts in the subject matter, or both.

[source - emphasis added]
Far from being a fallacy, appeal to proper authority is intellectually responsible research.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Perhaps it is "never mentioned" in mainstream academia because, after over a century of various mythicist proposals to explain the data we do have thoroughly failed, the last bastion for the mythicist is ignorance. After all, the historical Jesus is almost guarenteed to contradict Christian faith, has done so quite frequently in ways which would offend many (perhaps most) practicing Christians, and has in general included everything from discussions of Jesus' sexuality to the ways in which the gospel authors, Paul and the N.T. distorted Jesus' message. Why would mythicism be taboo?
This is essentially the same bankrupt claim invoked by creationists to explain the overwhelming consensus on evolution. It's interesting how those who are simultaneously zealous and unread employ the same substitute for reasoning.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
Sure, present your evidence, it's your thread.

My evidence is so extensive that I'd have to write a 5,000-word essay just to get us started, and I'm not wanting to do that. But I'll toss out a miscellaneous short list for you.

1) The synoptic gospels. There is no other instance in the history of humankind of three books, all published and accepted as independent works, which contain the sort of language-tracking as the synoptics. At least no one has been able to point me to any such books. The best conclusion is that Matthew and Luke are simply other editions of Mark. (John, of course, counts no more than the Book of Mormon so far as evidence of Jesus' historical life. Neither does Mark, but John is way outside the history box.)

2) Paul's silence. He supposedly knew many of Jesus' followers, yet he seems to know nothing about the actual life of Jesus.

3) The human need for hero worship and therefore hero creation -- the need to believe that Great Men once walked among us.

That should get us started.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Why not actually discuss the historical Jesus with me, Jay. What have you got to lose, me being so ignorant about it and all?
Would you like a one-on-one debate with you claiming the mythicist position? Simply tell the moderators and provide an opening statement.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
the entire argument to the contrary goes "scholars believe in historical Jesus, therefore historical Jesus must have existed"

The whole argument rests upon an appeal to the authority of 'scholars'

Yep. And the overwhelming cultural assumption, handed down from our ancestors, that Jesus was historical.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
What scholarship might that be?


And your reason for believing it to be something other than creative midrash is?

Ill look up the scholarship, it was at a university.


My reason is he was killed by the Romans. Theology would not be enough in a sea of teacher/healers. A disturbance at passover would however get you placed on a cross quickly.
 
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