Question about 28:4 to Muslim posters

[forth and five]

True, but this does not change the fact that it says Pharaoh made the people of the land he was ruling into sects. The land that Pharaoh was ruling was Egypt, and the people were those who lived in it.

Yet people living in Egypt existed as sects long before the Pharaoh who is described in the Quran appeared. He was not the one who made them into sects, like the current king of Saudi Arabia isn't the one who made the inhabitants of Mecca Muslims.


True.

Yet that happened after 28:4.

Also, did his people not exist as sects prior to the battle with Moses? Even his priests served different gods, so in this way, even were in sects before the battle with Moses.

you said that people were divided into sects long before pharaoh, how is that possible when the word means great house?

the great house is the reason for the sects.

you said the priest at the time of Moses were worshiping different gods than the ruler of the house, what gods was the ruler at times of Moses worshipping and what gods was his priest worshiping?

 

[Smart_Guy]

I wanted to ask for the verse and chapter number but Dawud referred to the it already

Okay, I'm an Arab and I'll have a look at it. I'll give the meaning no the literal word by word translation.

It says that the Pharaoh exalted himself and divided people looking at them as different classes deserving completely different human rights. That he specified a sect of them to kill their children and take their women to use them. It literally simply says keeping the women alive, but that same word came in other verses meaning to keep them alive to be used. Dividing people into classes here means treating people differently not just dividing them in different groups. It is natural to have people in different financial groups since we normally get what we earn, but treating those less fortunate than us like that is wrong.

 

[forth and five]

I wanted to ask for the verse and chapter number but Dawud referred to the it already

Okay, I'm an Arab and I'll have a look at it. I'll give the meaning no the literal word by word translation.

It says that the Pharaoh exalted himself and divided people looking at them as different classes deserving completely different human rights. That he specified a sect of them to kill their children and take their women to use them. It literally simply says keeping the women alive, but that same word came in other verses meaning to keep them alive to be used. Dividing people into classes here means treating people differently not just dividing them in different groups. It is natural to have people in different financial groups since we normally get what we earn, but treating those less fortunate than us like that is wrong.

thanks. What arabic word are you referring to for the word classes?

 

[Smart_Guy]

thanks. What arabic word are you referring to for the word classes?

You're welcome.

It is طائفة (ta'ifah).

 

[forth and five]

You're welcome.

It is طائفة (ta'ifah).

you started out with stating you were an Arab, and you were going to translate it correctly.

the word class in 28:4 is not in that verse .

 

[Smart_Guy]

you started out with stating you were an Arab, and you were going to translate it correctly.

the word class in 28:4 is not in that verse .

If you can read Arabic, here:
https://translate.google.com/#en/ar/class

It is the 11th translation on the Arabic column.

 

[forth and five]

If you can read Arabic, here:
https://translate.google.com/#en/ar/class

It is the 11th translation on the Arabic column.

shiyaʿan 28:4 , this word is sects do you agree or you believe this word should be class?

 

[Smart_Guy]

shiyaʿan 28:4 , this word is sects do you agree or you believe this word should be class?

Yes I agree, the word means sects.

 

[TG123456]

you said that people were divided into sects long before pharaoh, how is that possible when the word means great house?

the great house is the reason for the sects.

you said the priest at the time of Moses were worshiping different gods than the ruler of the house, what gods was the ruler at times of Moses worshipping and what gods was his priest worshiping?

Salaam Alaikum. Are you saying that "Pharaoh" in chapter 28 of the Quran is a reference not to a man but to the entire monarchy?

I said the priests at the time of Moses were worshiping different gods, but not different than what Pharaoh worshiped. The priests worshiped Pharaoh as well as the other gods, such as Re.

 

[TG123456]

I wanted to ask for the verse and chapter number but Dawud referred to the it already

Okay, I'm an Arab and I'll have a look at it. I'll give the meaning no the literal word by word translation.

It says that the Pharaoh exalted himself and divided people looking at them as different classes deserving completely different human rights. That he specified a sect of them to kill their children and take their women to use them. It literally simply says keeping the women alive, but that same word came in other verses meaning to keep them alive to be used. Dividing people into classes here means treating people differently not just dividing them in different groups. It is natural to have people in different financial groups since we normally get what we earn, but treating those less fortunate than us like that is wrong.

Salaam Alaikum and thank you for this.
You know Arabic better than I do, and that is the meaning according to what you have written.

When I read the tafsirs however of Ibn Qathir or the Al Jalalayns or even tafsir Ibn Abbas, they are saying what the verse itself states as it is worded- that Pharaoh made the people of Egypt into different groups. These people also were not only Arabic speakers, but scholars.

Tafsir Ibn Qathir

(Verily, Fir`awn exalted himself in the land) means, he was an arrogant oppressor and tyrant.
(and made its people Shiya`) means, he made them into different classes, each of which he used to do whatever he wanted of the affairs of his state.
(weakening a group among them. ) This refers to the Children of Israel, who at that time were the best of people, even though this tyrant king overpowered them, using them to do the most menial work and forcing them to hard labor night and day for him and his people. At the same time, he was killing their sons and letting their daughters live, to humiliate them and because he feared that there might appear among them the boy who would be the cause of his destruction and the downfall of his kingdom. So Fir`awn took precautions against that happening, by ordering that all boys born to the Children of Israel should be killed, but this precaution did not protect him against the divine decree, because when the term of Allah comes, it cannot be delayed, and for each and every matter there is a decree from Allah. Allah says:

Quran Tafsir Ibn Kathir - The Story of Musa and Fir`awn, and what Allah intended for Their Peoples

Tafsir Al Jalalayn

Truly Pharaoh had exalted himself in the land, the land of Egypt, and reduced its people into sects, groups, to serve him, oppressing a group of them, namely, the Children of Israel, slaughtering their sons, the new-born, and sparing their women, keeping them alive — for some of the [Egyptian] priests had told him, ‘A new-born of the Children of Israel shall bring about the end of your kingdom’. Indeed he was of those who cause corruption, through [the use of] slaughter and otherwise.

http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMa...hNo=4&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

Tafsir Ibn Abbas

(Lo! Pharaoh exalted himself) Pharaoh rebelled and became arrogant and tyrannical (in the earth) in the land of Egypt (and made its people castes) different groups. (A tribe among them) from among the Children of Israel (he suppressed) he oppressed, (killing their sons) young (and sparing their women) and use their grown up women as servants. (Lo! he was of those who work corruption) in his state of disbelief, by killing people and calling for the worship of other than Allah.

http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMa...hNo=4&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

The Quran does say that Pharaoh made the people of Egypt into different groups, not merely that he treated them unjustly.

Notice that according to the Al Jalalayns the people were "reduced" into sects. You can't reduce something unless previously it wasn't that way.

28:4 puts the blame on Pharaoh not only for mistreating the Israelites, but also for making the people of Egypt into different groups, or sects. The first charge may or may not be true, it is a matter of faith. The second one definitely is not.

 

[Smart_Guy]

When I read the tafsirs however of Ibn Qathir or the Al Jalalayns or even tafsir Ibn Abbas, they are saying what the verse itself states as it is worded- that Pharaoh made the people of Egypt into different groups. These people also were not only Arabic speakers, but scholars.

May peace and mercy be upon you too.

Yeah, that's a key phrase. Scholars probably have better background (context) of the story, while I just translated the words as seen on the Quran. I don't really take the words of scholars blindly, I see the source for myself then decide. Here, their findings go along with mine.

I do actually think too that this story in the Quran is literal and happened as told. I'm saying this because the Quran claims that the body of the Pharaoh will be reserved and discovered for people to see, the body that I heard was really found a while back in these modern days and some French scientist checked it.

 

[TG123456]

May peace and mercy be upon you too.

You also, my friend.

Yeah, that's a key phrase. Scholars probably have better background (context) of the story, while I just translated the words as seen on the Quran. I don't really take the words of scholars blindly, I see the source for myself then decide. Here, their findings go along with mine.

So you agree that 28:4 is saying that Pharaoh made the Egyptian society into different classes? That is what the Quran literally says, and what they claim.

I do actually think too that this story in the Quran is literal and happened as told. I'm saying this because the Quran claims that the body of the Pharaoh will be reserved and discovered for people to see, the body that I heard was really found a while back in these modern days and some French scientist checked it.

It is definitely correct that the bodies of a few of the Pharaohs have been preserved very well- they include Ramses II, Tuthmoses III and Menerptah.

If the story in the Quran is meant to be taken literally (and I see no reason for it not to be), then it is correct about the body of the Pharaoh being preserved for future generations... and incorrect about Pharaoh making the people of Egypt into different classes.

The diagram below is from a history website that is designed for middle school students (the age I usually work with as a supply teacher), but it does a great job in showing the breakdown of Ancient Egyptian society.

The Egyptians - Society | HistoryOnTheNet

This is how Ancient Egyptian society was divided for milennia, long before either Ramses II or Tuthmoses III.

Neither of these two Pharaohs "made the society into factions"- it existed as such for a very long time before either of them were born.

 

[Smart_Guy]

You also, my friend.


So you agree that 28:4 is saying that Pharaoh made the Egyptian society into different classes? That is what the Quran literally says, and what they claim.


It is definitely correct that the bodies of a few of the Pharaohs have been preserved very well- they include Ramses II, Tuthmoses III and Menerptah.

If the story in the Quran is meant to be taken literally (and I see no reason for it not to be), then it is correct about the body of the Pharaoh being preserved for future generations... and incorrect about Pharaoh making the people of Egypt into different classes.

The diagram below is from a history website that is designed for middle school students (the age I usually work with as a supply teacher), but it does a great job in showing the breakdown of Ancient Egyptian society.

The Egyptians - Society | HistoryOnTheNet

This is how Ancient Egyptian society was divided for milennia, long before either Ramses II or Tuthmoses III.

Neither of these two Pharaohs "made the society into factions"- it existed as such for a very long time before either of them were born.

Yes, that's what I understood from the verse. I could be wrong tho. Formal Arabic could be tricky at times.

The exception about Ramses is that he was not mummified like the others to be preserved, but he was anyways for some reason by being simply drowned. But that's another subject I guess.

I understand from what you say and the diagram that the people were already divided into classes before Ramses, hence the hierarchy, but were they all treated differently with different human rights? That is the point I'm talking about. People in Ramses' era were already divided to classes, but he divided them to classes in treatment that he took is a norm to kill their newborn and keep their women alive to use them, a treatment that was not applied to all classes.

Simply having people divided to classes I see is not specifically a bad thing, that the Quran would complain about, but to divide them even further; i.e. in rights and treatment, to have the classes I mentioned as a result, seems to be the evil deed the Quran was relating to Ramses in that verse. Perhaps the Quran is telling us about this specific unjust discrimination.

Again, I could be wrong.

Do studies provide sources that specifically and straight forward mention that ancient Egypt was divided before Ramses?

 

[TG123456]

Salaam Alaikum.

Yes, that's what I understood from the verse. I could be wrong tho. Formal Arabic could be tricky at times.

Of course. It is a privilege for me (not trying to be patronizing) to discuss the Quran with an Arabic speaker, who is fluent in the language.

I only know very little Arabic, I picked it up when I was in Palestine and Israel. I volunteered for 2 summers in the West Bank with International Solidarity Movement (ISM) and one of these summers also as a delegate with Christian Peacemaker Teams (CPT). Our job was to document Israeli Army and settler abuses against Palestinians, and support Palestinians and Israelis who are waging a non-violent struggle against the occupation. If you are interested, you can check out my blogs below:

Living Stones
Mighty Stream

A lot the stuff I witnessed and experienced and documented was quite disturbing, as you can probably imagine. There may and probably will be some pictures and videos on the blog that you may find disturbing (photos of Palestinians being teargassed and shot and tackled and arrested, a picture of me and my friend after 3 settlers attacked us with clubs and a metal pipe), but I think the truth needs to be shown, even when it is hard.

LOL sorry for the total sidetrack. I enjoy the Arabic language. It's difficult for me to learn but I love how it sounds and the writing especially is beautiful. Most of the Palestinians I met, despite living under the harshness of the occupation and the humiliation of what the settlers and soldiers do to them, were some of the kindest people I knew. They were also extremely generous- the shopkeepers especially whose business was really suffering due to the situation especially this summer, but would still treat us with tea and invite us over to their homes for Eid despite how little they had.

The exception about Ramses is that he was not mummified like the others to be preserved, but he was anyways for some reason by being simply drowned. But that's another subject I guess.

I haven't heard of this. Please share, I am very interested.

I understand from what you say and the diagram that the people were already divided into classes before Ramses, hence the hierarchy, but were they all treated differently with different human rights? That is the point I'm talking about. People in Ramses' era were already divided to classes, but he divided them to classes in treatment that he took is a norm to kill their newborn and keep their women alive to use them, a treatment that was not applied to all classes.

Simply having people divided to classes I see is not specifically a bad thing, that the Quran would complain about, but to divide them even further; i.e. in rights and treatment, to have the classes I mentioned as a result, seems to be the evil deed the Quran was relating to Ramses in that verse. Perhaps the Quran is telling us about this specific unjust discrimination.

In Ancient Egypt, people were treated differently by class. While the Pharaoh and his viziers had immense riches and anything they wanted, the average Egyptian (whether peasant or slave, actually) was poor. The poor had much smaller homes, and were tied down to the land. The slaves of course, unlike the also poor average Egyptians, were "owned" by someone else and when they were born, their children also would be slaves. Interestingly, as bad as slavery is everywhere, Egyptian slaves were treated with less cruelty than slaves of other nations, like the Romans or Greeks. Most people also seemed happy enough with their lot not to try to overthrow the system.

From a website about Egyptian history (link is provided below).

Ancient Egyptian society was highly polarized. The chasm between rich and poor appears to date back to pre-dynastic times [2] and grew more pronounced with the passage of the centuries [4]. Juan José Castillos of the Uruguayan Institute of Egyptology in Montevideo bases his conclusions on the disparity between the numbers of large, sumptuous tombs and of simple graves during the Naqada I period and later: Except for occasional local discontinuities that occur due to ecological, economic, or political events, Pre-dynastic Egypt evolved steadily into a more stratified society without great disruption. [1].
From the unification of the country onward, a diminutive rich upper class ruled with the help of a small scribal administration over the masses of Egyptian workers and peasants living barely above subsistence level, soaking up most of the surplus the labour of the workers produced. This development reached an apex during the beginning of the pyramid age, when the building of the royal tombs and mortuary temples required the effort of the whole nation, setting the pharaoh apart from the other members of the upper class. It was followed by a decline in the wealth and power of the pharaohs and their families and by the rise of the local nobility during the late Old Kingdom and the First Intermediate Period. After the 12th dynasty monarchs gained power over the country, they relied heavily on the services of the scribal class which remained the mainstay of authority throughout pharaonic history.


Labour
... manual labor is little elevated; the inaction of the hands is honorable.
Precepts of the prefect, the lord Ptah-hotep
This largest part of the population consisted mostly of peasants and farm labourers, generally despised by their superiors. How free they were throughout history is unknown, but there are documents which seem to imply that many of them lived in a state similar to that of the serfdom known in the European Middle Ages. Slaves, not as utterly without rights as they often were in other slave-owning societies, were relatively few in numbers, and it is debatable whether they should be looked on as a different social class.
Other commoners, be they farmers or artisans, were their own masters, possessing homes and land, buying and selling belongings and produce as they saw fit. They employed servants and workers and were at times even masters of slaves, but most people worked at least to a certain extent under some kind of supervision by scribal officials belonging to some estate, temple, or state administration.

​

Literacy marked the dividing line between the proletariat and the upper classes, but it was seemingly less rare among members of the working class than had been assumed in the past. Certain groups needed knowledge of hieroglyphs, e.g. artists who had to copy sacred texts correctly onto tomb walls and coffins [8]. Hieratic was also known. Quite a number of inscribed ostraka were found at the New Kingdom village of Deir el Medina dealing with everyday matters. The study of reading and writing became easier and probably more widespread with the introduction of the Greek alphabet by Hellenistic settlers in the last centuries of the first millennium BCE and its adaptation for the writing of Late Egyptian, Coptic.
The differences in wealth and status among these commoners were considerable, even if they dwindle into insignificance when comparisons with the upper classes are made: At Kahun (Hotep Senusret) built during the Middle Kingdom flat sizes in the workers' quarter were between 50 and 80 m², at the New Kingdom settlement Deir el Medina the average flat covered 80 m², the smallest flats measured about 50 m², and the largest, probably those belonging to the foremen and village administrators, 160 m².

The social classes in ancient Egypt

There wasn't killing of babies prior to the time of Ramses II - actually there is no record anywhere of the Ancient Egyptians doing such things at any time. Infanticide was considered a sin even by their polytheistic religion.

However, 28:4 doesn't merely say that Pharaoh oppressed the Israelites and killed their baby boys... before stating this, the Quran's author accuses him of making the people into factions.

As we can see, Ancient Egyptians already existed as factions. Whether or not the Israelites were enslaved by Ramses II or were slaves before already, is irrelevant to that statement.

The statement being made is about about "the people" of the land Pharaoh ruled, ie Egypt. The verse states he made them into factions. The fact is he didn't. They were in factions already.

Saying Pharaoh made the people of Egypt into factions by enslaving the Israelites would be as sensible as saying that ISIS made Iraq a violent place by murdering James Foley. Egyptians were already divided into factions before Ramses II allegedly enslaved the Israelites, and Iraq was a violent place prior to the beheading of James Foley.

Again, I could be wrong.

Fortunately, I never am. LOL just kidding. I may be conceited, but not that much.

Do studies provide sources that specifically and straight forward mention that ancient Egypt was divided before Ramses?

Egyptians were divided into different groups before there were even Pharaohs.

We know that Seti I, the father of Ramses II, was proud of how many slaves he "donated" to one of the temples of the gods. Interestingly, the slaves working for the rich families were better off than the native Egyptian peasants!

​

Many slaves laboured on the estates of the pharaohs, the nobility and the priests. Seti I announced on the Wadi Halfa stela how he had endowed Min-Amen's temple at Buhen, so that his storehouse was filled with male and female slaves from the captivity of his majesty, L.P.H. Ramses III is said to have given 113,000 to the temples during the course of his reign.
The slaves who found themselves serving the royal family [14] or the nobility were generally the lucky ones. Their life was often less hard than that of the native peasants. The children of a few of these slaves, foreigners or Egyptians, who had exceptional ability, made themselves indispensable to their masters and rose to high positions in the bureaucracy or married into their former owners' families after being set free.

Ancient Egypt: Slavery, its causes and practice

I think that historical evidence points us to the fact that Ancient Egypt was a very divided society before there were even any Pharaohs.

The Pharaoh of the Quran may or may not have Israelites into slaves and killed their boys, but we know for a certainty he did not make the people of the land of Egypt into factions. That already was done centuries is not more before he was born.

Tisbah al khaeyr and we will talk more later, inshAllah.

 

[TG123456]

In terms of human rights, Egyptian peasants and farmers did have some rights, and interestingly, there were even strikes in Ancient Egypt!

However, they were often treated harshly by their supervisors, who were treated harshly by those above them.

Forced labour was the norm, as were beatings.

The treatment of the workers
Subordinates were at times less than zealous in the performance of their duties. Threats, outspoken or veiled were used to keep them on their toes The mayor of the southern capital Sennefer speaks to the tenant-farmer Baki son of Kyson to the following effect. This letter is brought to you to tell you that I am coming to see you when we moor at Hu in three days' time. Do not let me find fault with you in your duties. Do not fail to have things in perfect order. ..... You are not to slack, because I know that you are lazy, and fond of eating in bed.
Sennefer, mayor of Thebes, to his tenant, Baki [4]
Papyrus Berlin 10463
Reign of Amenhotep II (1450-1412 BCE)
A wise underling accepted his place in the order of things. Any, a scribe in the palace of queen Nefertari, knew how hierarchies work: Do not talk back to an angry superior,
Let him have his way;
Speak sweetly when he speaks sourly,
It's the remedy that calms the heart.
Fighting answers carry sticks,
And your strength collapses;
///////////////
Do not vex your heart.
He will return to praise you soon,
When his hour of rage has passed.
If your words please the heart,
The heart tends to accept them;
Choose silence for yourself,
Submit to what he does.
The Instruction of the scribe Any, New Kingdom
M.Lichtheim, Ancient Egyptian Literature, Volume II, p.143
Servants whose master was displeased with them, were punished or sacked, as Heqanakhte did in his letter to his children Now, be sure to have the maid Senen thrown out of my house - take great care of this - the very day Sihathor returns to you [with this message]. Listen, if she spends one more day in my house. But it is you who let her do evil to my new wife. Look, why must I scold you?
Letter by Heqanakhte [4],
Middle Kingdom
The corvée system caused much hardship at times. Being late for work or trying to leave early was a severe offense. Laws concerning desertion called for six months' imprisonment, forced labour or a fine. The imprisonment at Thebes of a woman for leaving her district in order not to do her corvée service is mentioned in a Middle Kingdom papyrus now at the Brooklyn Museum. But special circumstances, like illness in the family, were often taken into consideration.
Another papyrus in the Brooklyn Museum describes how Menemnakht was away for a rather long time doing his duty, and his family was forced to work the farm without him. In their letters they complained about the poor inundation, and Menemnakht replied describing the inadequate rations he received and the difficult work he had to do.
Workers were generally drafted during the time of inundation, when work in the fields was impossible. Much of the work done was in their direct interest such as the repair of dams and irrigation canals, and vicariously, the building of temples as places where the gods were worshipped by priests in their name and holidays were celebrated or the erection of pyramids, tombs and palaces for the pharaohs.
Kheops ... brought the people to utter misery. For first he closed all the temples, so that no one could sacrifice there; and next, he compelled all the Egyptians to work for him. To some, he assigned the task of dragging stones from the quarries in the Arabian mountains to the Nile; and after the stones were ferried across the river in boats, he organized others to receive and drag them to the mountains called Libyan. They worked in gangs of a hundred thousand men, each gang for three months. For ten years the people wore themselves out building the road over which the stones were dragged, work which was in my opinion not much lighter at all than the building of the pyramid
Herodotus, Histories II, 124 [2]

Workers, while sometimes neglected or beaten, were not considered to be expendable, and their welfare was important to their supervisors. The leader of a quarrying expedition to the desert, reported proudly, that he had lost neither man nor mule [6]. The need for days of rest was also recognized. The Egyptian week of ten days ended, according to Deir el Medineh papyri, often in a two day weekend. Workers did not work on the main religious holidays either, and the five intercalary days not belonging to any month (the year was divided into twelve months of thirty days each, leaving five days) were considered unlucky and no work was to be done during that period.
Absences from work were carefully noted and their reasons given

Pendua: first month of the season of inundation, 14th day: he went drinking with Khonsu ....
Amenemuia: the month of the winter season, 15th day: assisted at the mummification of Hormes. 2nd month of winter, 7th day: absent. 8th day: brewed beer. 16th day: worked at reinforcing the door....
Seba .... a scorpion stung him ....
Khonsu .... three days given here ... ill. [Then another day when he] served his god. The month of inundation, 14th day: his feast. 15th day: his feast.
From a Deir el Medine papyrus, year 40 of Ramses II
Translation after Claire Lalouette L'empire des Ramsès, Fayard, Paris 1985, page 253.

Corporal punishment

Worker being punished, from the tomb of Menna
Source: L.Casson Ancient Egypt, excerpt

Corporal punishment [5] of workers was commonplace and seen, at least by some employers, as an inevitable part of existence and likely to be part of the next life as well, just as the decorator of Menna's tomb depicted it. Foremen and supervisors did not escape being beaten either, if they were seen to have been slack in their duties. 14 And the officers of the children of Israel, which Pharaoh's taskmasters had set over them, were beaten and demanded, Wherefore have ye not fulfilled your task in making brick both yesterday and to day, as heretofore?
Exodus, 5 [1]
A person was probably never far from a beating if the mortuary inscription of Nedjemib is anything to go by, as he specifically mentions never having been beaten by officials, a certification of good conduct which the gods should take into account ... Let a mortuary offering of that which is with you come forth to me, for I was one beloved of the people. Never was I beaten in the presence of any official since my birth; never did I take the property of any man by violence; (but) I was a doer of that which pleased all men.
Excerpt from the mortuary inscription of Nedjemib, Old Kingdom
James Henry Breasted Ancient Records of Egypt Part I, § 279


Ancient Egypt: Labour relations

 

[Smart_Guy]

Hey, that's some interesting read.

I just skimmed thru it right now. I'll read it later.

I haven't heard of this. Please share, I am very interested.

I take that back. I just looked into it further and it looks like wrong information. I remember reading it as a founding by a doctor called Maurice Bucaille, but after further searches, I found sources so confusing. Please ignore it.

 

[TG123456]

Hey, that's some interesting read.

I just skimmed thru it right now. I'll read it later.



I take that back. I just looked into it further and it looks like wrong information. I remember reading it as a founding by a doctor called Maurice Bucaille, but after further searches, I found sources so confusing. Please ignore it.

No problem, take your time. No problem also taking back your point, it happens to me also.

Nice talking to you, masalaam.

 

[TG123456]

Some more evidence of the social classes Ancient Egyptians were divided into, from an essay by Dr. Okhon, from the University of Calabar, Nigeria.


As a policy, Pharaoh owned all the land, was the commander-in-chief of the army and controlled the irrigation system. Social inequality was rife in Ancient Egypt. The society was divided into three broad classes.
In the upper class, there priests, the court nobility, and the landed nobility. While the priest presided over religious ceremonies, especially burials, the court nobles served as government advisers, while the landed nobles managed their large estates. The upper class lived in affluence "with palatial homes, with luxurious furnishings, elaborate gardens and sumptuous food (Wallbank et al, 30,31).
The middle class was made up of skilled artisans, rich traders, teachers, artist, doctors and scribes. Scribes, who served as letter writers, occupied an important position in Ancient Egypt, because of the low level of literacy.
The lower class was made up slaves and peasants. "The slaves were usually prisoners of war. Like the peasants, they worked on farms, irrigation systems, roads and building projects. The peasants were heavily burdened by taxes and forced labour, had few political rights." (Wallbank, 31).

Religion and Politics in Ancient Egypt, Etim E. Okhon, Ph.D

http://www.scihub.org/AJSMS/PDF/2012/3/AJSMS-3-3-93-98.pdf

 

[Smart_Guy]

Perhaps the verse does not mean that the subject Pharaoh started or developed some class orientation and/or treatment, but instead that orientation/treatment was also going in his time and it was mentioned as an emphasis for his tyranny that was mentioned later?

 

[TG123456]

Perhaps the verse does not mean that the subject Pharaoh started or developed some class orientation and/or treatment, but instead that orientation/treatment was also going in his time and it was mentioned as an emphasis for his tyranny that was mentioned later?

Salaam Alaikum.

If the treatment was already going on, what would be the point of saying that he "made" it?

I typed the word وَجَعَلَ
on Google Translate and Imtranslator

I got these results:

Translations of جعل
verb

make
جعل, صنع, أنتج, تصرف, فعل, هيأ
https://translate.google.com/#auto/en/وَجَعَلَ


And to make
وَجَعَلَ

Arabic to English translation


What does the word "made" mean? I typed the word into dictionary.com, and got these results:

verb (used with object), made, making.
1.
to bring into existence by shaping or changing material, combining parts, etc.:
to make a dress; to make a channel; to make a work of art.
2.
to produce; cause to exist or happen; bring about:
to make trouble; to make war.
3.
to cause to be or become; render:
to make someone happy.
4.
to appoint or name:
The president made her his special envoy.
5.
to put in the proper condition or state, as for use; fix; prepare:
to make a bed; to make dinner.
6.
to bring into a certain form:
to make bricks out of clay.
7.
to convert from one state, condition, category, etc., to another:
to make a virtue of one's vices.

Make | Define Make at Dictionary.com