Question about 28:4 to Muslim posters

[TG123456]

There is no archaeological evidence that Jesus ever existed but Prophet Mohamed's grave exist.

But is he in it? How do we know? Are we willing to find out?.... see if the coccyx is there?

My point is not to say that Jesus never really existed, but is just to make a counter argument. You told me i can't rely on the Quran to prove anything, so i thought it was ironic since we should be on the same boat. Got my point?

I hear what you are trying to say and I am not trying to be more of a hypocrite than I normally am on a Monday evening but I think there is a problem with the analogy.

I don't expect you to accept evidence from the Bible as proof of anything other than what the Bible itself teaches, so to verify the crucifixion of Jesus I go into non-Biblical sources, Christian and non-Christian ones. You are trying to use the Quran as evidence that Jesus was not crucified and as of now have not presented any other evidence to support this.

Thanks.

No problem.

I have a proof from the Quran and also from the Bible itself. Which one you prefer?

I would love to see whatever proof you believe exists in the Bible that Jesus was not crucified. Go ahead.

 

[TG123456]

Ha ha. I really love your sense of humor.

I wish we would meet in person someday, we would become great friends, but i think that won't be easy since we leave far from each other.

LOL yeah it would be fun, but there are unfortunately too many thousands of miles of ocean in the way. If Allah wills it, maybe in the hereafter.

Not exactly. The theory of evolution is not just some unproven theory. It's a proven theory and it exist just like gravity and similar well known theories. Why would you accept the theory of gravity but not the theory of evolution?

No need to apologize.

Yes sure. You can read more about evolution below:

Human evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks for the link. I will read up more on it.

We can see gravity is real by dropping a penny. Something makes it fall to the ground, and that something doesn't work too well in outer space.

I will right now leave off commenting further about evolution until I have read more. Thanks again for the site.

 

[TashaN]

But is he in it? How do we know? Are we willing to find out?.... see if the coccyx is there?

Bodies of Messengers of God don't decay. They remain in its natural state as if they were alive.

I hear what you are trying to say and I am not trying to be more of a hypocrite than I normally am on a Monday evening but I think there is a problem with the analogy.

I don't expect you to accept evidence from the Bible as proof of anything other than what the Bible itself teaches, so to verify the crucifixion of Jesus I go into non-Biblical sources, Christian and non-Christian ones. You are trying to use the Quran as evidence that Jesus was not crucified and as of now have not presented any other evidence to support this.

Do you want me to present for you evidence from the Quran? there you go.

{157} وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَكِنْ شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُوا فِيهِ لَفِي شَكٍّ مِنْهُ مَا لَهُمْ بِهِ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِلَّا اتِّبَاعَ الظَّنِّ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ يَقِينًا
That they said (in boast), "We killed Al-Masih 'Isa the son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.

{158} بَلْ رَفَعَهُ اللَّهُ إِلَيْهِ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ عَزِيزًا حَكِيمًا
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

(Quran, Surah 4)

No problem.

I would love to see whatever proof you believe exists in the Bible that Jesus was not crucified. Go ahead.

Let us start first with the word crucifiction, how do you define it?

 

[TashaN]

LOL yeah it would be fun, but there are unfortunately too many thousands of miles of ocean in the way. If Allah wills it, maybe in the hereafter.

Insha'Allah we both meet in heaven, not just the hereafter.

Thanks for the link. I will read up more on it.

We can see gravity is real by dropping a penny. Something makes it fall to the ground, and that something doesn't work too well in outer space.

I will right now leave off commenting further about evolution until I have read more. Thanks again for the site.

And we can see evolution by the changes of human features like color of skin, size of eyes, shape of nose, facial changes, physical changes as they intermarried and move from one place to another.

Anyhow, as you said we can look into it later on after you read more about it. You will notice as you read about evolution that the theory of evolution doesn't contradict with the Quran, but it does contradict with the Bible.

And you are most welcome.

 

[TG123456]

Bodies of Messengers of God don't decay. They remain in its natural state as if they were alive.

Would you be willing to dig up Muhammad's grave and see for yourself?

Do you want me to present for you evidence from the Quran? there you go.

{157} وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَكِنْ شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُوا فِيهِ لَفِي شَكٍّ مِنْهُ مَا لَهُمْ بِهِ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِلَّا اتِّبَاعَ الظَّنِّ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ يَقِينًا
That they said (in boast), "We killed Al-Masih 'Isa the son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.

{158} بَلْ رَفَعَهُ اللَّهُ إِلَيْهِ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ عَزِيزًا حَكِيمًا
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

(Quran, Surah 4)

No, I want you to present me evidence from outside the Quran that Jesus was not crucified, not unlike I presented from outside the Bible that He was.

Let us start first with the word crucifiction, how do you define it?

Crucifixion is a form of execution, where the victim is tied or nailed to a cross, and left to die.

I'm not sure what a crucifiction is, but I think you meant to write crucifixion.

 

[TG123456]

Insha'Allah we both meet in heaven, not just the hereafter.

That can only be the case if one of our religions is correct and the other converts to it.

And we can see evolution by the changes of human features like color of skin, size of eyes, shape of nose, facial changes, physical changes as they intermarried and move from one place to another.

Anyhow, as you said we can look into it later on after you read more about it. You will notice as you read about evolution that the theory of evolution doesn't contradict with the Quran, but it does contradict with the Bible.

I will read up on it, and then state what I understood from it. When I do that, you can explain to me how it does not contradict the Quran. Does that work?

And you are most welcome.

Merci

 

[TashaN]

Will come back for this one insha'Allah.

 

[TashaN]

Would you be willing to dig up Muhammad's grave and see for yourself?

Are you kidding me? ha ha. Of course not.

No, I want you to present me evidence from outside the Quran that Jesus was not crucified, not unlike I presented from outside the Bible that He was.

Crucifixion is a form of execution, where the victim is tied or nailed to a cross, and left to die.

I'm not sure what a crucifiction is, but I think you meant to write crucifixion.

Sorry, i meant to say crucifixion since English is not my first language. I apologize for the confusion.

How the person will die if no one killed him on the cross?

Thank you.

 

[TashaN]

That can only be the case if one of our religions is correct and the other converts to it.

Oh my! so i can't go to heaven if i didn't convert and became a Christian like you?

I will read up on it, and then state what I understood from it. When I do that, you can explain to me how it does not contradict the Quran. Does that work?

Merci

Well, that would be difficult to point out. It's rather easier to just check that it doesn't contradict with the Quran in anyway. Until now i didn't see anything in the theory of evolution that contradict with the Quran.

Islam embrace science and doesn't conflict with it, unlike Christianity which has a long history of persecuting and killing scientists and those who disagree with the church for that matter, unfortunately. That's why the only way for the Christian world was to abandon their faith in the literality of the bible and become secular in order to freely embrace science.

 

[TG123456]

Are you kidding me? ha ha. Of course not.

Then I guess we will never know, will we?

Sorry, i meant to say crucifixion since English is not my first language. I apologize for the confusion.

LOL no problem. I was just being a bit of a jerk, sorry.

How the person will die if no one killed him on the cross?

Many possibilities. Some could die from dehydration or hunger over several days. Others could die from shock or blood loss in a few hours.

Thank you.

Afwan, my friend.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Then I guess we will never know, will we?

Well, we do believe in Jesus too even though we cannot prove his existence

 

[FearGod]

LOL Great to see you also, my friend. I didn't know you post here, as well as on ChristianForums!

Alaikum salaam!

Thanks for the response.

If the translation is accurate and can't be improved on, is this not a mistake in the Quran?

The author is stating that the Pharaoh of Moses made the people of the land (Egypt) into factions.

However, as we already know, the Egyptian society already existed as factions prior to Pharaoh taking power.

The Pharaoh of the Exodus, regardless of whether he was Ramses II or Tuthmosis III (the only two Pharaohs who would fit into the Quranic narrative), presided over a nation in which people already existed as factions.

Ancient Egyptian society had many divisions. At the top was the Pharaoh, followed by the viziers. Nobles and priests made up the third level, followed by scribes and soldiers. Below them were craftsmen and at the very bottom were slaves and peasants.

The Egyptians - Society | HistoryOnTheNet

You couldn't ask for a society that was more factionalized than this. This system was not introduced by either Ramses II or Tuthmosis III, but existed for centuries prior to their reigns.

The statement from the Quran that Pharaoh "made the people into factions" is not true. He could not "make" something that existed already.

That is flawed logic.

Did the verse says that he was the first man to make people as factions ?

For example if i said that the Egyptian president Mubarak oppressed the Egyptian people, does that mean he is the first to oppress the Egyptian people ?

 

[TashaN]

Then I guess we will never know, will we?

LOL no problem. I was just being a bit of a jerk, sorry.

Many possibilities. Some could die from dehydration or hunger over several days. Others could die from shock or blood loss in a few hours.

Afwan, my friend.

If one can die within days and we know for a fact that Jesus was brought down from the cross after couple of hours then isn't it possible that he was still alive?

 

[TG123456]

Salaam Alaikum. I will reply to this post in a few days, inshAllah.

 

[TashaN]

I'll wait for you. Glad to hear from you again.

 

[TG123456]

Well, we do believe in Jesus too even though we cannot prove his existence

Have you read the Annals of Tacitus and the passage in Josephus which states he was the brother of James?

 

[TG123456]

That is flawed logic.

Did the verse says that he was the first man to make people as factions ?

For example if i said that the Egyptian president Mubarak oppressed the Egyptian people, does that mean he is the first to oppress the Egyptian people ?

It doesn't say he was the first one to make people factions, and I didn't make that argument.

The verse does say though he made them into factions. He could only have done that if, prior to him coming, they were not in factions already.

If we say "Mubarak made the Egyptian people into an oppressed nation" and before him was a dictator who oppressed them also, the statement would be false.

Imagine if someone wrote "ISIS made the people of Iraq into victims of war". Wouldn't that be false? Weren't they victims of war before ISIS came along?

 

[TG123456]

If one can die within days and we know for a fact that Jesus was brought down from the cross after couple of hours then isn't it possible that he was still alive?

Anything is possible. It is also possible for someone to be accidentally dead when he is actually alive and people who were still living have actually been mistakenly buried. Does that mean that Muhammad wasn't really dead when people thought he was? We can play speculation games all day.

 

[TG123456]

I'll wait for you. Glad to hear from you again.

Thank you, my friend.

 

[TG123456]

Salaam Alaikum. I will reply to this post in a few days, inshAllah.

Check out the reply here:
Question about 28:4 to Muslim posters | Page 4 | ReligiousForums.com