Question about Christianity.

[MoonWater]

No, obviously I don't think this or I would not be on this forum, but everyone has there limits. Would you actually waste your time debating with a flat earth believer?

I'm not going to waste my time debating about whether or not a God who punishes people for things beyond their control is evil. If someone really says that a God like this is not evil, then I cannot take them seriously.

except she didn't say that god punishes people for things that are beyond their control. I would agree that that would be a bad thing for god to do, it's just that it's been my experience that people who believe that belief in god is mandatory also believe that such belief is a choice rather than something that is beyond our control. Now whether or not such belief really is a choice, well, that's a whole other can of worms to sift through and debate

Aside from that, , even if a god did have such a "flaw"(for lack of a better word) as to condemn someone because of something out of their control, as horrible as I think that would be, I fail to see how that would automatically mean such a god is incapable of doing "good" things, which is at least what I take evil to mean(and hence why I avoid the use of such terms as "evil" as I have yet to find anyone/thing that fits such a description).

That's why it's important for you to tell us just what yardstick you're using to measure evil as everyone is going to have a different yardstick. As such, to simply dismiss out of hand anyone who doesn't use your particular yardstick to measure evil would cause you to be left with very few, if any, people to debate with. Heck even people who would agree that such and such is wrong won;t necessarily agree that doing such and such qualifies one as evil.

Not to mention you're the one who asked the question:

For those who do believe that God punishes and rewards based on what we think is true, can you please explain how this is anything less than pure and utter evil?

To then turn around and say that anyone who doesn't think that is evil is not worth your time not only eliminates the possibility of debate in this regard but also eliminates the possibility of understanding and the whole point of your question in the first place.

 

[HoldemDB9]

How about this: you don't know the rules, so you don't get judged by them.

That makes perfect sense. But are you also talking about the people who believe the rules don't exist, or just the people who have never heard of them?

Ever hear of the concept of purgatory? Those who simply are unaware go there as a second chance.

Like I said are you including people who do not believe the rules actually exist? Many Christians do not include these people. But if I do not believe that a rule is actually there, then I cannot be held accountable for not following it.

But disbelief is not what gets people into hell; arrogance is. Arrogance is a path to suffering, even in this life. You hear the rules, and arrogantly disobey them, what happens? You learn the hard way just why they were there in the first place.

I agree, but I hope this is not directed at me because I am not arrogantly disobeying any rules of Christianity, I just simply do not believe that they exist. I do not believe that the rules are true and it is not my choice to believe they are.

except she didn't say that god punishes people for things that are beyond their control. I would agree that that would be a bad thing for god to do, it's just that it's been my experience that people who believe that belief in god is mandatory also believe that such belief is a choice rather than something that is beyond our control.

I asked about someone who tried their absolute hardest to find truth and she said she believes that these people will be punished (or at least not saved). If someone tried their absolute hardest to find truth, but they did not find it, it is not their fault - because they tried their absolute best. So she did say that she believes that God will punish people for things which are beyond our control and I think every sane person would agree that this is horrible.

Now whether or not such belief really is a choice, well, that's a whole other can of worms to sift through and debate

I've been through this before on this forum and almost everyone basically agreed that non-belief in a certain religion is largely involuntary. So largely that you might as well say its entirely involuntary. And you know what, even if it is a choice, then those who "choose" to not believe are doing so because of factors that are beyond their control - so it is definitely not a fair choice. And you could even take it further, even if we do fully choose what we do and do not believe in, those who choose to not believe are doing so because that way feels right to them, more true to them, more compelling/convincing to them. So even if we do voluntarily choose and we choose wrong, we still cannot be punished since we truly thought we were right. Here is the thread where this was discussed. We just cannot be punished or rewarded based on whether or not our beliefs happen to be right or wrong.

Aside from that, , even if a god did have such a "flaw"(for lack of a better word) as to condemn someone because of something out of their control, as horrible as I think that would be, I fail to see how that would automatically mean such a god is incapable of doing "good" things, which is at least what I take evil to mean(and hence why I avoid the use of such terms as "evil" as I have yet to find anyone/thing that fits such a description).

I agree. Just because God does certain evil things, does not mean that overall he is classed as evil. But sending someone to an undeserved eternal punishment is such a huge evil act, that I fail to see how God can not be evil. Are you saying that there can be a God who is not evil, but who also punishes people for things which were not their fault?

That's why it's important for you to tell us just what yardstick you're using to measure evil as everyone is going to have a different yardstick. As such, to simply dismiss out of hand anyone who doesn't use your particular yardstick to measure evil would cause you to be left with very few, if any, people to debate with. Heck even people who would agree that such and such is wrong won;t necessarily agree that doing such and such qualifies one as evil.

Like I said before there really is no need for me to explain how I measure good and evil since so far everyone agrees with me that giving an undeserved punishment is an evil thing to do. And like I said above, I am aware that committing evil acts does not make something fully evil. But it obviously depends on how big and evil the act is and undeserved eternal punishment is ummm.... fairly HUGE.

Not to mention you're the one who asked the question:

To then turn around and say that anyone who doesn't think that is evil is not worth your time not only eliminates the possibility of debate in this regard but also eliminates the possibility of understanding and the whole point of your question in the first place.

I know I asked that question, but it was not intended to be debated and I thought everyone would see this. How on earth is it even possible to debate about whether or not giving undeserved punishment is a bad thing to do? I made this thread to see what Christians had to say about this, not to find out if undeserved punishment is evil/bad. And only one Christian has fully and honestly answered me so far. She said she believes that God is evil (or at least that he does very evil acts), and that's why I was surprised, because Christians usually never say things like this.

Can there really be another way around this? I asked about someone who did all they could possibly do, but did not believe. Does anyone honestly believe that a fair, just, loving God can possibly punish such a person? To me it looks like Christians either believe that God (with regard to this subject) is utterly evil, or that non-Christians are not punished in any way. I just want to know if there is any 3rd option? Because I don't see one.

 

[Riverwolf]

That makes perfect sense. But are you also talking about the people who believe the rules don't exist, or just the people who have never heard of them?

Like I said are you including people who do not believe the rules actually exist? Many Christians do not include these people. But if I do not believe that a rule is actually there, then I cannot be held accountable for not following it.

I agree, but I hope this is not directed at me because I am not arrogantly disobeying any rules of Christianity, I just simply do not believe that they exist. I do not believe that the rules are true and it is not my choice to believe they are.

If a teacher tells you the rules are not to climb a fence, and you don't believe that rule exists, then of course you are accountable for that.

BUT there are belief systems that state that if you don't get it right in this life, whether you've heard the rules or not, that you'll get a second chance in a sort of divine classroom. Mormonism holds this.

And about arrogance... that can be a very subtle force, and one might think they're not being arrogant when in fact they are.

 

[HoldemDB9]

If a teacher tells you the rules are not to climb a fence, and you don't believe that rule exists, then of course you are accountable for that.

How can I not believe the rule exists if the teacher has told it to me? I will know that the rule is there, I will know that there will be a punishment if I do not follow it. This is not at all the case with religion. I think you mean what if I did not agree with the rule. But not agreeing with a rule and not thinking that it is there, is completely different.

But if somehow I did not think that the rule about climbing the fence was there, then of course I could not fairly be held accountable for climbing the fence - because I did not know that I was not supposed to climb it. With regards to religion we cannot be held accountable if we truly thought that we were right. Obviously this is not the case with humans and the law, but on this matter humans and the law is not fair - God would be.

 

[HoldemDB9]

BUT there are belief systems that state that if you don't get it right in this life, whether you've heard the rules or not, that you'll get a second chance in a sort of divine classroom. Mormonism holds this.

Obviously I have no problem with this belief. But from what I've seen the vast majority of Christians believe that we get one chance in this life. And obviously that chance is not fair and equal for everyone. I know (assuming that God is fair, loving, just, etc.) that if God does want us to believe in him, he will give us all an equal chance to do so. And if he does not do this then he will take everything into account when judging our beliefs (including the reasons for non-belief).

And about arrogance... that can be a very subtle force, and one might think they're not being arrogant when in fact they are

Well if I'm being arrogant and I don't know that I am, how can I be held accountable for being arrogant?

 

[Riverwolf]

Obviously I have no problem with this belief. But from what I've seen the vast majority of Christians believe that we get one chance in this life. And obviously that chance is not fair and equal for everyone. I know (assuming that God is fair, loving, just, etc.) that if God does want us to believe in him, he will give us all an equal chance to do so. And if he does not do this then he will take everything into account when judging our beliefs (including the reasons for non-belief).

The loud, obnoxious Christians hardly represent the majority. Most Christians I've ever talked to don't even believe hell exists.

Well if I'm being arrogant and I don't know that I am, how can I be held accountable for being arrogant?

Good point, but you need to be aware of your subconscious. Not for whatever happens in this life, but simply so that you can live a better life now.

 

[Riverwolf]

How can I not believe the rule exists if the teacher has told it to me? I will know that the rule is there, I will know that there will be a punishment if I do not follow it. This is not at all the case with religion. I think you mean what if I did not agree with the rule. But not agreeing with a rule and not thinking that it is there, is completely different.

But if somehow I did not think that the rule about climbing the fence was there, then of course I could not fairly be held accountable for climbing the fence - because I did not know that I was not supposed to climb it. With regards to religion we cannot be held accountable if we truly thought that we were right. Obviously this is not the case with humans and the law, but on this matter humans and the law is not fair - God would be.

You've heard the rule, and you deny it as not being real. The fault therefore lies with you.

That's not the same as never having heard the rule. The fault goes to the teacher in that case.

Or another case: a teacher tells you to read the rules on the wall, and you ignore that statement. The fault therefore lies with both of you, on the teacher for being too trusting of a child, and on you for not doing as your told.

 

[HoldemDB9]

You've heard the rule, and you deny it as not being real. The fault therefore lies with you.

This is how Christians mistakenly think beliefs work. Its not that I am denying that the rules are real, I just do not believe that they are, which then causes me to not follow them. Christians say that I either choose to believe or not believe in the Bible which then causes me to either accept or reject it. This is not true though, its the other way around (at least for me). The truth is that I involuntary either believe the Bible or I don't, which then causes me to reject or accept it. I do not think that the Bible is true, so I'm obviously not going to follow it (just like any sane person).

So if you want you can say that the "fault lies with me", but I still cannot be punished, if I involuntarily did not believe.

Or another case: a teacher tells you to read the rules on the wall, and you ignore that statement. The fault therefore lies with both of you, on the teacher for being too trusting of a child, and on you for not doing as your told.

I agree, but again religion is different. If a teacher tells me to read the rules then I know they exist and I know that I will (and should) be punished for not following them. But whilst I've heard of the rules of Christianity, I do not know that they exist and I also do not believe that they exist. They are just simply rules that I have heard of. I cannot be held accountable for not following the rules of a religion that I did not believe in, just because that religion happened to be true.

 

[HoldemDB9]

The loud, obnoxious Christians hardly represent the majority. Most Christians I've ever talked to don't even believe hell exists.

Well that is very comforting, but the point still remains. Either Christians believe that God is doing something very evil or they think that non-Christians can be saved. I don't see a 3rd option.

So if there are any Christians who think that God is not evil at all, but also punishes non-believers who have tried their best, I would like to hear what the have to say.

 

[dawny0826]

Imagine someone who tries their absolute hardest to be a good person and to find truth, but they happen to come to the conclusion that Christianity is false (there is plenty of them). Do you believe that this person will be punished in anyway by God for not believing? What does the Bible have to say about someone who did the best they could possibly ever do, but came to a false conclusion?

For those who do believe that God punishes and rewards based on what we think is true, can you please explain how this is anything less than pure and utter evil?

It is my belief that if one has been presented with the gospel and rejects it, they've made the decision to be separated from God in the afterlife. As far as how much punishment factors in, I can't tell you.

I believe that what we receive in the afterlife is more than fair. God is good. He has provided us with everything that we need to live a wholesome life on earth and to be reconciled with Him in the afterlife. I can tell from previous threads that you and I aren't on the same page regarding free will. I believe very much in free will.

If you're presented with a "salvation kit" and you choose not to use it...the consequences, whatever they may be, are on you. An evil God wouldn't extend a life saver at all.

 

[Riverwolf]

Well that is very comforting, but the point still remains. Either Christians believe that God is doing something very evil or they think that non-Christians can be saved. I don't see a 3rd option.

So if there are any Christians who think that God is not evil at all, but also punishes non-believers who have tried their best, I would like to hear what the have to say.

Well what if it's not punishment at all?

I know of certain Christian traditions that say that God doesn't punish at all, but that non-believers go down a different path, one that leads to suffering. And God is trying his best to reach out to us and lead us on the right path.

 

[Riverwolf]

This is how Christians mistakenly think beliefs work. Its not that I am denying that the rules are real, I just do not believe that they are, which then causes me to not follow them. Christians say that I either choose to believe or not believe in the Bible which then causes me to either accept or reject it. This is not true though, its the other way around (at least for me). The truth is that I involuntary either believe the Bible or I don't, which then causes me to reject or accept it. I do not think that the Bible is true, so I'm obviously not going to follow it (just like any sane person).

Except the Bible talks about many, many things that don't have anything to do whatsoever with mythology.

Ever hear of philosophy? Half the Bible is philosophy.

 

[HoldemDB9]

It is my belief that if one has been presented with the gospel and rejects it, they've made the decision to be separated from God in the afterlife. As far as how much punishment factors in, I can't tell you.

What you mean is that if someone has been presented with the Bible and does not believe it, they will then be separated from God in the after life (which is evil). They have not "choose" to be separated, just like they did not "choose" to have a non-belief. And even if we do choose to not believe, we still did not know what the consequences were. It would not be fair for God to give us the consequences for something we have done, if we did not know what the consequences were or if we did not believe that they existed.

I believe that what we receive in the afterlife is more than fair. God is good. He has provided us with everything that we need to live a wholesome life on earth and to be reconciled with Him in the afterlife. I can tell from previous threads that you and I aren't on the same page regarding free will. I believe very much in free will.

I also believe in free will. I believe in free will just as much as most Christians do. But I know that I cannot choose to think that something is true. I don't just believe this, I know it.

If you're presented with a "salvation kit" and you choose not to use it...the consequences, whatever they may be, are on you. An evil God wouldn't extend a life saver at all.

Yawn, we are going back in circles here. Obviously I am not just "choosing to not use the salvation kit", because I do not think that the Bible is a salvation kit. Would you choose to use something that you did not think was true? Like for example, another religious book?

But of course to you its all simple - The Bible is the truth, you either "choose" to believe it or you don't, if you choose to believe it you are rewarded and if you "choose" to not believe it you are punished.

You've already agreed with me in the other thread that I cannot choose to follow Christianity, by saying that I "don't see the relation between belief and choice". If I "don't see the relation" then I obviously cant choose - because I don't see the relation. I guess you also believe that I am "choosing" to not see the relation, LOL. Like I said before when I say that I am not choosing to be a non-Christian, you either believe I'm lying or that I'm telling the truth - there is no in-between.

I'm not going back through whether or not my non-beliefs are choices, I know (since I'm me) for an absolute solid fact that they are not and I find it hilarious that people tell ME that I am making conscious choices when I AM ME AND I KNOW IF I AM MAKING A CHOICE. If you want to talk about this then go and bump the thread which you "bowed" out of.

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

In other words, your God is plain evil. Christians usually don't admit to this, I'm surprised you do. This is my big problem with Christianity, it portrays God to be very very evil, that is why I cant accept Christianity - I just do not believe that God is in any way evil. I really don't know why you are going on about rules, etc. How can someone be held accountable for rules which they did not know or even believe were real? Are you saying that God would punish us based on something that is beyond our control? Because being wrong is beyond our control.

Honestly, what would you think of God if when you seen him after you died, he told you that you are going to be unimaginably punished for ever, just because you were not a Muslim?

People who have beliefs like yours truly do make me feel sick and deeply saddened. But I understand, to keep most religions ticking away there has to be a punishment in place for not following and a reward in place for following.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said God was evil, and our definitions of evil obviously differ.

Firstly, I don't believe that people who have never been exposed to Christianity go to Hell for not believing and following. As you say, that is something they have no control over and I personally think they are like children to God. They don't know what is right and wrong in His sight, so how can they possibly make the decision to sin?

Now that's out of the way. However, I find it disturbing that you think what you believe and choose to follow is beyond your control. If you choose to not be a Christian, then you are going to be held accountable for that choice. If Islam is the true religion, then I am going to be held accountable for my choice to not be a Muslim. I am a rational, thinking, reasoning human being. I have weighed between Christianity, Islam, Atheism, and a number of other beliefs, and I have conciously chosen Christianity as the most rational religion. If I have made the wrong choice, then I must pay the consequences.

Lastly, even if there was no Heaven and no Hell I would still be a Christian because I love God, and knowing that I am serving Him is reward enough.

Oh, and people who insist that they are not responsible for their own actions and therefore cannot be held accountable for them make me sick.

 

[dawny0826]

What you mean is that if someone has been presented with the Bible and does not believe it, they will then be separated from God in the after life (which is evil). They have not "choose" to be separated, just like they did not "choose" to have a non-belief. And even if we do choose to not believe, we still did not know what the consequences were. It would not be fair for God to give us the consequences for something we have done, if we did not know what the consequences were or if we did not believe that they existed.

I agree with you on one point. I don't believe it would be fair for God to punish those who were unaware that they were commiting sin against Him. I'm speaking of individuals who have been exposed to the word and are familiar with God's plan. Once you've been given that information, the ball is in your court to act in accordance to this plan or opt out. A truly evil deity, in my opinion, would force you to bow to him/her, regardless of your feelings. You are provided with a choice and according to the word, there is no middle ground. You're either for or against.

An example (which isn't perfect, I know)...You want to be able to legally drive, so you're given a driving manual and are required to go through driving school. Without going to school or reading the manual, you choose to get behind the wheel. You wind up getting into an accident which results in an arrest. Would it be logical to call the authors or inspiration behind the driving manual and driving laws, evil? You're the one who opted not to read it. The laws were in place before you got behind the wheel and elected not to prepare yourself. Regardless of how harsh the laws are or how much you agreed/disagreed with them, if you KNEW they existed, KNEW that you couldn't operate a vehicle without proper licensure, YOU are responsible for the consequences.

With regards to the bible, the positives of living for Christ are laid out for you, quite clearly, as are the negatives for rejecting Christ. You can't claim that you weren't told what the consequences are, if you've been exposed to the word.

And if you don't care, either way, I don't understand why you'd waste your time pondering over the nature of God.

I also believe in free will. I believe in free will just as much as most Christians do. But I know that I cannot choose to think that something is true. I don't just believe this, I know it.

To each his/her own.

Yawn, we are going back in circles here. Obviously I am not just "choosing to not use the salvation kit", because I do not think that the Bible is a salvation kit. Would you choose to use something that you did not think was true? Like for example, another religious book?

Fair enough. So, why the thread? Is your intent to poke and prod at Christian beliefs? If your mind is already made up, why give a rat's rear about God and the fact that he is or isn't evil? I don't understand your motivation.

But of course to you its all simple - The Bible is the truth, you either "choose" to believe it or you don't, if you choose to believe it you are rewarded and if you "choose" to not believe it you are punished.

It's so much more than this.

You've already agreed with me in the other thread that I cannot choose to follow Christianity, by saying that I "don't see the relation between belief and choice".

You should re-read that thread. I didn't agree with you.

If I "don't see the relation" then I obviously cant choose - because I don't see the relation. I guess you also believe that I am "choosing" to not see the relation, LOL. Like I said before when I say that I am not choosing to be a non-Christian, you either believe I'm lying or that I'm telling the truth - there is no in-between.

Whatever floats your boat.

I'm not going back through whether or not my non-beliefs are choices, I know (since I'm me) for an absolute solid fact that they are not and I find it hilarious that people tell ME that I am making conscious choices when I AM ME AND I KNOW IF I AM MAKING A CHOICE. If you want to talk about this then go and bump the thread which you "bowed" out of.

I bowed out because it was pointless to continue. I didn't feel it wise to waste anymore of my time or yours, for that matter. And my intent really, wasn't to take this thread in that direction.

 

[Riverwolf]

Oh, and people who insist that they are not responsible for their own actions and therefore cannot be held accountable for them make me sick.

I agree.

We are in 100% control over what we do and what we believe.

Right now, if I so chose, I could completely convert to fundamentalistic Christianity. (I'm not going to, though) I read the Bible often, and I do take the words of Jesus (from the Synoptic Gospels) at heart. It would be very easy for me to convert if I so chose; in fact, I've often been tempted to. (what stops me is that I refuse to believe I'm above nature in any way, because I'm not)

But it's my conscious choice not to.

It's also my conscious choice not to call anyone I disagree with names. After all, weren't we taught back in kindergarten that calling people names was bad? Has that rule become obsolete now that we're adults?

 

[Riverwolf]

I agree with you on one point. I don't believe it would be fair for God to give consequences for those who were unaware that they were commiting a sin against Hm. I'm speaking of individuals who have been exposed to the word and are familiar with God's plan. Once you've been given that information, the ball is in your court to act in accordance to this plan or opt out.

Which is why if it turns out that Christianity is correct, I'm going to hell.

And I don't hold it against God.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said God was evil, and our definitions of evil obviously differ.

You don't agree that eternal undeserved punishment is evil?

Now that's out of the way. However, I find it disturbing that you think what you believe and choose to follow is beyond your control. If you choose to not be a Christian, then you are going to be held accountable for that choice. If Islam is the true religion, then I am going to be held accountable for my choice to not be a Muslim. I am a rational, thinking, reasoning human being. I have weighed between Christianity, Islam, Atheism, and a number of other beliefs, and I have consciously chosen Christianity as the most rational religion. If I have made the wrong choice, then I must pay the consequences.

What appears to you to be the most rational religion is not your choice. You are a Christian because the Christian way feels true, right, compelling, convincing and the most rationally correct to you. Like I said before, if we are choosing, we are choosing what we feel is the best way. What we feel is the best way is not our choice. Are you honestly saying that I should go against what I feel to be right? Would God want me to go against what I feel is right?

Its not going to dismiss the fact that your belief (with regard to this subject) is evil, just because you agree that other religions are also. If Islam is true and you have done your best (I'm sure you have) are you honestly saying that God is not committing an evil act if he punishes you, even though you would have to be absolutely out of your mind to become a Muslim? We cannot be punished if we truly felt that we were right.

Lastly, even if there was no Heaven and no Hell I would still be a Christian because I love God, and knowing that I am serving Him is reward enough.

I also love God (if he exists). Its religion I have a problem with, not God - the two are not even remotely the same.

Oh, and people who insist that they are not responsible for their own actions and therefore cannot be held accountable for them make me sick.

I agree, but obviously there are some actions that we commit that we are not responsible for. I do not beleive that I can choose to become a Christian, do you beleive me?

I agree with you on one point. I don't believe it would be fair for God to give consequences for those who were unaware that they were committing a sin against Hm. I'm speaking of individuals who have been exposed to the word and are familiar with God's plan. Once you've been given that information, the ball is in your court to act in accordance to this plan or opt out.

Like I said if we do choose then we choose what we think is right. I am not going to follow information that I do not think is true - no sane person would.

It's like driving in a way...if you're given a driving manual, choose not to read it and crash into a stop sign...how is it logical to call the authors or inspirtation behind the manual, evil. You're the one who opted not to read it.

This analogy fails completely. First of all I have read the Bible and I dare say that I know more about Christianity than most so called Christians. Im not talking about you or any of the Christians on this forum, Im talking about the average go to church on a sunday weak Christian. Secondly I would know that the driving manual is true and that by not reading it I am putting myself in danger/taking a chance. I do not know that the Bible is true and I don't even beleive that it is. There is a difference between believing that something is false and choosing not to read it. I have heard of Christianity and I think that it is false, simple as that.

Of course it is logical to say that a God who would punish me for not thinking that something was true is evil.

With regards to the bible, the positives of living for Christ are laid out for you, quite clearly as are the negatives for rejecting Christ. You can't claim that you weren't told what the consequences are, if you've been exposed to the word.

Like I said before if I do not believe that a rule actually exists then I cannot fairly be punished for not following it. And if I truly beleive that I am right, I cannot be punished either.

Fair enough. So, why the thread? Is your intent to poke and prod at Christian beliefs? If your mind is already made up, why give a rat's rear about God and the fact that he is or isn't evil? I don't understand your motivation.

My motivation is that I'm having big big problems believing that Christianity is true, because to me it portrays God to be evil and I do not believe that God would be evil at all. Im interested in what Christians have to say about the contradictions that I beleive I have found. It is not my intention to insult Christianity and Im sorry if Ive done that. However, I'm not going to lie and I do find certain Christian beliefs to be disgusting and others to be hilarious.

You should re-read that thread. I didn't agree with you.

You should read it again. You agreed with me without realizing it over and over again.

Whatever floats your boat.

And when I show you how you agreed with me, first you bow out of the thread then you respond like this. You have two choices - either Im lying or Im telling the truth, you pick.

I agree.

We are in 100% control over what we do and what we believe.

Right now, if I so chose, I could completely convert to fundamentalistic Christianity. (I'm not going to, though) I read the Bible often, and I do take the words of Jesus (from the Synoptic Gospels) at heart. It would be very easy for me to convert if I so chose; in fact, I've often been tempted to. (what stops me is that I refuse to believe I'm above nature in any way, because I'm not)

But it's my conscious choice not to.

So you are saying that all of the Christians could convert to Muslims and any Theist could choose to become an Atheist? I'm not even going to debate this, its absolutely hilarious and I think almost all would agree. I am me and I know whether or not I can just choose to become a Christian. When I say I cannot choose you either beleive that I'm lying or you agree that my non-belief is not my choice, which do you beleive? And like I said before even if we are choosing, we are choosing what we feel is right. We cannot be punished if we believed we were right. And whether or not our religion is right is just chance.

(what stops me is that I refuse to believe I'm above nature in any way, because I'm not)

So this is the reason why you are not Christian? Do you really think that if God exists he would want you to go against what you truly felt was right? Are you saying that a God who punishes you for doing something which you felt was right, is not evil?

Which is why if it turns out that Christianity is correct, I'm going to hell.

And I don't hold it against God.

So you don't hold it against God that you truly felt you were right and doing good, but because you happened to get it wrong (which was not your fault) you are going to be punished? Being right or wrong is not our fault or choice, all we can do is try our best to be right, which is what every decent person does. If we tried our best but were wrong, then we got unlucky - There is nothing punish worthy about getting unlucky. So you've basically said that God will punish us for things which were beyond our control and you already agreed that this is horrible.

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

You don't agree that eternal undeserved punishment is evil?

I don't agree that God punishes people undeservedly. Nice try, though.

What appears to you to be the most rational religion is not your choice. You are a Christian because the Christian way feels true, right, compelling, convincing and the most rationally correct to you. Like I said before, if we are choosing, we are choosing what we feel is the best way. What we feel is the best way is not our choice. Are you honestly saying that I should go against what I feel to be right? Would God want me to go against what I feel is right?

Its not going to dismiss the fact that your belief (with regard to this subject) is evil, just because you agree that other religions are also. If Islam is true and you have done your best (I'm sure you have) are you honestly saying that God is not committing an evil act if he punishes you, even though you would have to be absolutely out of your mind to become a Muslim? We cannot be punished if we truly felt that we were right.

Thanks for attempting to analyze why I'm a Christian, but I think I have it covered. What we feel is the best way IS our choice. Don't you believe that humans have free will? I could have chosen to be anything. Sure, I decided originally that Christianity was what would be best for me. But do you think I just said "Yeah, that makes sense, let's go for it!" Um, no.

I'm not sure how much experience you have with the conversion process, but it's really hard. At least, it was for me. Sometimes I don't want to be a Christian, sometimes I look at other religions and think "How cool" or "That makes sense". But I choose to remain a Christian because I will control the kind of person I am and what my life will be like. I've turned my back on a lot of stuff that "feels right" to stay a Christian.

But the point basically is, people go against what they feel is right everyday for the sake of what IS right. So yes. I would honestly tell you to go against what you feel is right, and I'm telling you that I believe God would want you to go against what you feel is right too.

I wouldn't have to be out of my mind to become a Muslim. The Islamic faith is not abhorrent to me, and I looked pretty seriously at it before I became a Christian. So, if hypothetically Islam were the true faith, no, Allah would not be evil by punishing me for not being a Muslim. I have turned my back on Islam conciously and voluntarily.

I think your problem is that you're deluded into believing that we all live our lives based on feelings, and that just isn't so.

 

[HoldemDB9]

I don't agree that God punishes people undeservedly. Nice try, though.

Didn't you say that you believed a person who did their absolute best to find truth but did not become a Christian, would be punished? Are you honestly saying that a person who does their absolute best but fails, deserves to be punished?

Thanks for attempting to analyze why I'm a Christian, but I think I have it covered. What we feel is the best way IS our choice. Don't you believe that humans have free will? I could have chosen to be anything. Sure, I decided originally that Christianity was what would be best for me. But do you think I just said "Yeah, that makes sense, let's go for it!" Um, no.

You should not speak for everyone, I do not choose to feel what the best way is. Are you saying that we have control over our feelings? If I feel something just is not right, then I am not going to go with it. It is not my choice for something to feel right and as a human I'm obviously going to go with what I feel to be right.

I'm not sure how much experience you have with the conversion process, but it's really hard. At least, it was for me. Sometimes I don't want to be a Christian, sometimes I look at other religions and think "How cool" or "That makes sense". But I choose to remain a Christian because I will control the kind of person I am and what my life will be like. I've turned my back on a lot of stuff that "feels right" to stay a Christian.

I agree with everything you have said here except I am worried about the bold part. I can only assume that you don't understand what I mean when I say "feel right". If something feels right to you I mean that is the thing that you think is true, that is the thing that you are going to go with no matter what - because you feel its right. No sane person would go with what they feel is wrong.

If you are really turning your back on things that are more true to you, that you trust more and that you think is right, just to keep try and keep a current belief, then I think you are mentally ill. But don't worry, I don't actually think you are mentally ill, I just think that you misunderstood me when I said what "feel right".

But the point basically is, people go against what they feel is right everyday for the sake of what IS right. So yes. I would honestly tell you to go against what you feel is right, and I'm telling you that I believe God would want you to go against what you feel is right too.

Like I said I don't think I should go any further with this until we are sure what each other means by the term "feel right. I understand that if my beliefs were wrong then God would not want me to have them, but he certinley would not punish me in anyway for not changing if I believed I had got it.

I wouldn't have to be out of my mind to become a Muslim. The Islamic faith is not abhorrent to me, and I looked pretty seriously at it before I became a Christian. So, if hypothetically Islam were the true faith, no, Allah would not be evil by punishing me for not being a Muslim. I have turned my back on Islam consciously and voluntarily.

But you have turned your back on it because you did not think that it was true. In order to do your best to find truth, you will have to turn your back on things that might be true. But the point is that you have done your best. Once you have done your best, whether or not you are right is pure chance. And God would not reward or punish us based on pure chance. The only thing that can possibly matter to a fair, just, loving God, is how hard we tried - not whether or not we got lucky.

Which is why I believe that regardless of what conclusion you came to, all that matters to God is how hard you tried. The way you are saying things makes it sound like the ones who did not find the truth, are simply doomed from birth.