Question about Christianity.

[Riverwolf]

DING-DING-DING! Now you've got it! If what you truly feel is right, is wrong in God's sight, then he punishes you for that. And no, it's not evil, just like our judicial system is not evil for sending someone who breaks the law (even though they truly felt their actions were right) to jail.

Right!

A thief who steals because his sister is starving to death is still stealing, and is subject to the law and punishment.

HOWEVER if such a reason were given in a court, then I would, had I the power, endorse that family with money so that they could survive, and would reduce the punishment than what it would have been if the theft had not been necessary.

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

I do not presume to know how God judges, but I think that if a person who (through no fault of their own) has come to show disbelief in Him, but is still able to follow Christ's example through compassion, mercy and forgiveness, then that person has more chance of gaining entrance to Heaven than a Christian who displays a lack of these qualities.

Mm-hmm, I should have been clearer. I was trying to lay out the verses in the simplest way possible, since we are mostly discussing belief and disbelief, however I also believe the actual actions you take during your life are a huge part of what your eternal life will be like. I disagree that a person who disbelieves but is still a "good person" per say will be allowed to enter Heaven-faith and good works are both necessary. However, I would also believe that a person who lacks the qualities displayed by Christ will not be allowed to enter Heaven either.

Faith+Obedience.

People cannot help what they come to believe. To condemn someone for something they have no control over is the greatest evil imaginable; and to claim that perhaps God cannot help those who have no faith is to limit His power. Which attribute are you giving to God?

Ok, well I know I choose what I want to believe. I won't speak for everyone else, as it doesn't seem to be the case for everyone. I believe God does help those with no faith, everyday. But if they don't WANT to believe in Him, that's their decision.

The Dr. Seuss quote in my siggy says it all.

 

[Riverwolf]

What exactly do you mean? I've clearly pointed out what you a Lindsey-loo said in this thread, yet you are both still denying it.

You know, I'm searching through this thread, and I can't find where I said that I agreed with you that punishing because of disbelief was horrid. I've been forsaking that line of thinking for months.

Perhaps you could direct me to the post?

 

[DarkSun]

Ok, well I know I choose what I want to believe. I won't speak for everyone else, as it doesn't seem to be the case for everyone. I believe God does help those with no faith, everyday. But if they don't WANT to believe in Him, that's their decision.

The Dr. Seuss quote in my siggy says it all.

Mhm. What of Muslims, Jews, Buddhists or Hindus who grew up in an Islamic, Jewish or otherwise Eastern culture? They were shown at birth what to believe, they grew up in a culture where they inevitable came to believe in that religion. Such things don't come down to choice. The individual does have some say in the matter, you're right, but each and every other person surrounding that individual have a significant influence over their growth.

In the end, their faith in, say, Buddhism becomes just as strong as your faith in Christ. Could you choose, by Free Will, to become Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim or any religion besides your own? No. Of course not. Neither can they voluntarily choose to become Christian unless their experiences in life lead them in that direction. With atheism, it is much the same too. Belief is not chosen, it is learned; and what's learned cannot be undone by choice.

And to condemn someone to Hell for something that they have absolutely no control over is the epitome of evil. Personally, I don't see how a just God could do such a thing.

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

Mhm. What of Muslims, Jews, Buddhists or Hindus who grew up in an Islamic, Jewish or otherwise Eastern culture? They were shown at birth what to believe, they grew up in a culture where they inevitable came to believe in that religion. Such things don't come down to choice. The individual does have some say in the matter, you're right, but each and every other person surrounding that individual have a significant influence over their growth.

In the end, their faith in, say, Buddhism becomes just as strong as your faith in Christ. Could you choose, by Free Will, to become Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim or any religion besides your own? No. Of course not. Neither can they voluntarily choose to become Christian unless their experiences in life lead them in that direction. With atheism, it is much the same too. Belief is not chosen, it is learned; and what's learned cannot be undone by choice.

And to condemn someone to Hell for something that they have absolutely no control over is the epitome of evil. Personally, I don't see how a just God could do such a thing.

I agree, cultural and familial influences are significiant in the beliefs, or lack of, in an individual. But I've watched plenty of people overcome that. My dad was one. I was like six when he was baptized into Christianity, so I guess he was in his thirties. People and beliefs can most certainly change. I believe God gives people ample oppurtunity to follow Him, whatever that might entail, be it Christianity, Islam, whatever. If we don't take those oppurtunities, it's our own faults.

 

[DarkSun]

I agree, cultural and familial influences are significiant in the beliefs, or lack of, in an individual. But I've watched plenty of people overcome that. My dad was one. I was like six when he was baptized into Christianity, so I guess he was in his thirties. People and beliefs can most certainly change. I believe God gives people ample oppurtunity to follow Him, whatever that might entail, be it Christianity, Islam, whatever. If we don't take those oppurtunities, it's our own faults.

It's my turn to agree with you now. But only the part in blue. God gives everyone the oppurtunity to follow Him, but I don't think that's limitted to Christianity alone.

People who believe in Islam have just as much faith as Christians; and the vast majority of Muslims do not convert to Christianity. Likewise, the vast majority of atheists do not convert to Christianity. The minority of people who do convert have had experiences which lead them to do so; and likewise, those who remain in their current belief-system have experienced no reason to change.

I don't believe that people are condemned or punished solely for believing differently to you or I.

In fact, people are born into cultures whose perceptions of the same God may differ. The only difference between Christianity and Islam is the cultural context in which the two religions developed, and the events which formed the two religions. Besides that, they each view the same God from a different perspective. So in the end, people are viewing the same God; and as far as the individual is concerned; their perception of that God is the most accurate.

And most atheists, agnostics and theists alike still have a certain reverence for "creation", whether they believe that nature was created or not. An awe for the universe in all of its complexity; I'd call that as much a perception of God as anything else.

Perhaps good people of differing beliefs are saved because they still have some perception of God; even though they don't believe in Him, in the traditional sense.

But to condemn the seventy percent of the world population who aren't Christian to Hell merely because of their differing faith is pure and utter evil. Hitler only killed six million Jews after all; so imagine an entity that condemned seventy percent of all people who ever existed to Hell. That's just not right, whichever way you look at it.

 

[Mister Emu]

Perhaps good people of differing beliefs are saved because they still have some perception of God; even though they don't believe in Him, in the traditional sense.

But there, according to Christianity(Christ Himself in the Bible) there are no good people

"There is none good but God"

 

[Masourga]

Ok so you are accepting that it is absolutely fine for God to punish someone who did their best to not only be a good person, but to also find truth? Don't you think that a God like this is evil? What you are basically saying is that if God is evil, then trying your best will not be good enough. I already know this, but me and most Christians do not beleive that God is at all evil. The problem is that some Christians say that God is not evil, but he also gives eternal undeserved punishments - it does not fit.

I never said I thought it would be fair from my perspective. But my perspective isn't what would count were I to be set forth in judgment by some almighty power. Even as a Christian you can't say you know exactly how it works. In the end, it doesn't even matter. There is no one who would be able to hold God accountable to any standard of "fairness". In fact, He could define "fairness" as anything He wanted... and what exactly is any of us going to do about it?

 

[DarkSun]

But there, according to Christianity(Christ Himself in the Bible) there are no good people

"There is none good but God"

True, true. I was referring to the piece of scriptures that say that faith without acts is dead, so forgive me for any misinterpretation. By good, I meant "as good as people can be given the circumstance".

 

[HoldemDB9]

If one doesn't feel that Christianity is right, they do not want to be a Christian. I think we have established that. If one does not want to be a Christian, then they are not in God's flock, and therefore will not join Him in eternal life.

I understand what you mean, I just believe its insane and unfair. So you accept that if the Muslims are right, then it is perfectly fine for you to be punished because you did not "choose" to be a Muslim. Even though in order to be a Muslim you would of had to go against what you truly thought was the truth. You've done your best in this life and you have come to the conclusion that Christianity is true, but if its not true, then its perfectly fine for you to be punished and God would not be evil for punishing you. I think this is evil and I would be shocked to hear anyone disagree.

I don't think you're lying or telling the truth. I think you're mistaken in what you believe is the truth. But just because I have the incorrect answer for something doesn't make me a liar. It would just make me wrong.

This is true for most things, but on this subject it is not. I am telling you that I cannot choose to become a Christian, if you don't think I'm lying when I say this, you believe I'm telling the truth. You don't believe that I'm telling the truth about the fact that we don't choose our beliefs, but you believe I'm telling the truth when I say that I cannot choose. If you believe I can choose, but I'm mistaken - then I cant choose because I'm mistaken. If you believe I can choose, but I truly believe that I cant - then I cant choose because I truly believe that I cant. On this matter you either believe I'm lying, or I'm telling the truth about myself.

That is the bottom line. If one does their best to find the truth, but reaches an incorrect conclusion, they are still deserving of seperation from God.

Like I said above, I am now coming to understand your beliefs - its just that they are insane and they are portraying God to be evil. If you really do mean what you say here, then I am shocked. I think every sane person would agree that what you said is evil. If someone does their BEST to find truth, but reaches an incorrect conclusion - they do not deserve not be punished, for they have tried their BEST.

I dont see how you dont understand that once we have tried our absolute best, whether or not we are right IS nothing but pure chance. Luck (once we have tried our best) is beyond our control. So you are saying (without yet realizing it, Im sure) that you believe that God will punish us and reward us for things which are beyond our control.

So why is it that some people can find His truth and others cannot?

Like I've explained - luck. There are millions of non-Christians who are trying harder to find truth than hundreds of millions of Christians. Its just absolutely insane that the ones who are trying less, get rewarded for happening to be right.

Do you truly believe that if you go against God your entire life you deserve to be rewarded for that?

No.

It is never right to do a wrong thing. I wouldn't kill a bad person to save my whole family if they were not threatening my family, but for the sake of the argument I'll provide an example that works.

If a guy broke into my house with a gun and threatened to kill my family, I would kill him if I had the oppurtunity. That still isn't right. That's me choosing to do a wrong thing.

You choosing to do a wrong thing, for a bigger, overall right reason. Which is why (as far as I know) you are not punished for murdering in self defense, if self defence was the only way out. Anyway, you really do need to stop comparing humans breaking the law, to humans getting the truth wrong. The two are not the same. In your example you knew that you were doing a wrong thing. By not following Christianity I do not know (or even believe) that I am doing anything wrong.

But it was right to them. They just reached a different conclusion from our lawmakers and judicial system, just like people often reach a different conclusion from God's system.

Should the murderer go unpunished? Is our judicial system evil if they put him in jail?

Once again, the murderers knew that they were doing something wrong. If they did not know that they were doing something wrong (like me, with Christianity) then they will not be punished. So yes, the murderers should be punished, because they choose to do something that they knew was wrong.

But you know the rules and consequences are there, you just don't follow them.

NO, I do not know that the rules and consequences are there - this is the whole point. Im CHOOSING not to follow them because I do not think that they are there. Ive already established that if we truly did not think that the rules were there, we cannot be fairly punished for not following them.

All you can do is find or not find the truth.

Obviously. But whether or not you do (after you've tried your best) is NOTHING but sheer luck.

Duh. If I didn't believe that the harder you look for the truth, the more obvious Christianity becomes, why ever would I be a Christian?

Because the more you have tried to find truth, the closer you came to Christianity. Its not the same for everyone. Cant you accept that people automatically have different feelings and interpretations about the same thing? Some read the Bible and think, "I believe this, it all sounds good, I'm in." Others read it and think that it is hilarious and absolutely insane. And if it takes a leap of faith to believe in Christianity, then how on earth can it be that the closer people try to find truth, the closer they will be to becoming Christian? Im an Agnostic, but I dont believe that if everyone did their best to find truth, they would become an Agnostic - because I know everyone is different.

I'm saying that I believe all who aren't Christians don't want to be Christians (obviously) and therefore refuse to see the truth where it exists. And please don't diss Christians who converted as soon as they heard. It takes an enormous leap of faith, I could never do that, and I deeply respect them.

And do you deeply respect people of other religions who make and equal leap of faith, for the wrong religion? This just once again shows that if Christianity is true, Christians (especially those who took the huge leap of faith) have got nothing but lucky.

Absolutely. If I try hard enough to become a Muslim, I could become one. And you can be punished for not being a Christian if it happens to be true. That's in the Bible. I'm pretty sure God wouldn't want you to go to a hypnotist in order to become a Christian, because He wants you to come to Him of your own choice and free will.

OK, like I said I now understand how you perceive God to be. I just believe its evil and your the only person Ive met so far who disagrees. You've said it yourself when you said, "if Christianity happens to be true" that its just luck to get it right or wrong.

Right, which is why you must first believe it is there. I agree, a god who would punish someone never even exposed to Christianity would be evil. But that's not the case with the vast majority of people in our world these days. Once again, I've NEVER said God would punish us for things beyond our control.

Look in my above replies, you have said that God will punish us for things which are beyond our control. But ill say it again, once we have tried our best, whether or not we are wrong or right is beyond our control. Also, if there is absolutely nothing involuntary behind you being Christian, then how are you a Christian? If there was nothing at all involuntary behind your choice, then its just a plain guess.

DING-DING-DING! Now you've got it! If what you truly feel is right, is wrong in God's sight, then he punishes you for that.

I believe this is evil and I've never came across anyone in my life who disagrees. You are just yet again saying that its all luck, to get it right.

And no, it's not evil, just like our judicial system is not evil for sending someone who breaks the law (even though they truly felt their actions were right) to jail.

The law does not send people to prison if they did not know that they were doing something wrong. People are sent to prison for choosing to do something that they knew was wrong. If I am choosing to be a non-Christian, then I obviously do not know or think that I am doing anything wrong.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Then why did he do what he did?

I don't know, I'm not Hitler and like I said I don't know much about him. But I know that he knew he was doing something wrong, yet he still chose to do it. He knew what the rules were but he decided to break them - so its perfectly acceptable for him to be punished. If Hitler truly did not know that what he was doing was wrong in any way, then of course he does not deserve to be punished.

Yes, I could become an atheist if I so chose. I don't because I think it's perfectly conceivable that there are beings that are beyond our comprehension, as there are beings that do not comprehend us. I just attach the term "god" to such beings.

Just because you have the ability to choose what you believe (and I believe you don't) still does not mean that you can be fairly punished for not choosing the way that just happened to be true. You keep saying that you could be a Christian or Atheist but you are choosing not to because [insert reason which you are choosing to go with]. You are going with the reasons which you truly believe are right, you are trying your best - you cannot be punished fairly for trying your best, regardless of what conclusion you come to.

And how can you justify not realizing something if you've read the rules? If you haven't read the rules, then you're okay. If you HAVE read the rules, then you aren't justified UNLESS you have a darned good REASON for disagreeing.

I agree. But I have the biggest and most forgiveable reason ever possible for not following the rules. The reason is that I truly believe that the rules do not actually exist. Can you think of a better reason than that? And its not that I disagree with the rules of Christianity - I agree with almost all of them. The problem is that I do not know or even think that they are there. And its true (even in this life) that you cannot be punished for breaking rules which you did not think existed.

 

[HoldemDB9]

Lying implies intentional speaking of untruth.

You have made it very clear that you believe every word you say. Therefore you are not lying.

But what you believe to be true is not what another believes is true.

Like I said, on this matter you cannot have both.

Right!

A thief who steals because his sister is starving to death is still stealing, and is subject to the law and punishment.

HOWEVER if such a reason were given in a court, then I would, had I the power, endorse that family with money so that they could survive, and would reduce the punishment than what it would have been if the theft had not been necessary.

Again the comparison between choosing the wrong God and breaking human laws does not work. The thief knows he is breaking rules. He knows that there are consequences. If he did not know the rules and if he did not know there were consequences, then of course he should not be punished.

Ok, well I know I choose what I want to believe. I won't speak for everyone else, as it doesn't seem to be the case for everyone.

Finally. Are you now accepting that the hundreds of millions of people who say that they cant choose are not lying? I personally believe that people like you who say they are choosing, just think they are. Its just an illusion. Its seems and feels like a choice, but its so weighted by factors which are beyond your control, that it is not a choice. You accept that things can largely influence peoples beliefs, but you say that because they can change them if they really wanted to, they deserve to be punished for going with what they felt was right. The sheer fact that almost everyone brought up in America are Christians and almost all brought up in Afghanistan are Muslims, SHOWS that there is not really a choice. And if there is, its very very very weighted to one side.

And do you see why you cannot say the same thing abut people who believe that they cant choose? If you think its an illusion for them, or they are mistaken, then that is just another way of saying that they cannot choose. All you are doing is giving reason for why they cannot choose.

 

[HoldemDB9]

You know, I'm searching through this thread, and I can't find where I said that I agreed with you that punishing because of disbelief was horrid. I've been forsaking that line of thinking for months.

Perhaps you could direct me to the post?

I didn't say that you said that punishing because of disbelief is horrid - Although I think it is extremely horrid, but thats another subject.

What I did say you said was that you believe it would be a horrible thing for God to punish us for things which were beyond our control. And you've said plenty of times that you believe its not evil or horrible for God to punish us for things which were beyond our control. The two things that you said, perfectly contradict each other.

 

[Riverwolf]

I didn't say that you said that punishing because of disbelief is horrid - Although I think it is extremely horrid, but thats another subject.

What I did say you said was that you believe it would be a horrible thing for God to punish us for things which were beyond our control. And you've said plenty of times that you believe its not evil or horrible for God to punish us for things which were beyond our control. The two things that you said, perfectly contradict each other.

I can't find where I said that...

But something beyond our control is like accidentally running over a person you didn't see until it was too late, and you were following all the rules of the road. You are free from punishment in that case.

But you do choose what you believe and hold true. You can change your values if you want to. Not overnight, of course, but since when could anything be done overnight?

Obviously if I converted to Christianity, it would take a few weeks if not a few months to fully embrace it, denying my previous beliefs that were rooted in paganism.


As I said, all it takes is relinquishing pride.

 

[Riverwolf]

Oh, and here's a counter to your reasoning that punishing something that was done unknowingly is bad.

Take a young child who runs in the house. That is not only not okay, it's not safe, either for the child or other people. But the child does not know this. Using this knowledge, the child, if he or she continuously does this after being told over and over not to, has to be punished somehow. But with your logic, nothing should be done and the child should continue to run around until he or she breaks something, either part of his or her body or something else.

And I'd like to say that my definition of punishment is to teach a lesson. (which is a major reason why I don't agree with the death penalty, 'cause that doesn't teach anyone anything)

 

[HoldemDB9]

I can't find where I said that...

I'm sorry, it was not you who said it, it was MoonWater. I got you two mixed up.

But something beyond our control is like accidentally running over a person you didn't see until it was too late, and you were following all the rules of the road. You are free from punishment in that case.

You are right, this situation is beyond our control. Just like trying your best to find truth and coming to the wrong conclusion is also beyond your control.

But you do choose what you believe and hold true. You can change your values if you want to. Not overnight, of course, but since when could anything be done overnight.

But what if I don't want to change my beliefs? Is that my choice also? Of course I don't want to convert to Christianity, because I have absolutely no reason to believe that Christianity is true. Is it also my choice that I have no reasons? I sure could try and become a Christian, but to do that I would have to be extremely dishonest with myself, I would have to go against what I truly believed was right.

Anyway like I said, even if you can choose your beliefs, Christianity still does not make sense because to be rewarded you have to choose the one that happens to be true. Once you've tried your best, whether or not you are right is just luck.

Obviously if I converted to Christianity, it would take a few weeks if not a few months to fully embrace it, denying my previous beliefs that were rooted in paganism.

So because it is actually possible for you to have become a Christian in this life, you think its perfectly fine for God to punish you for "choosing" the way that just happened to be wrong? And its also fine for God to reward Christians who "chose" the way which just happened to be true, even though they did not really look into their beliefs or try to find truth?

Id say most Christians are like this, but they feel that as long as their right, they will be fine. They put so much emphasis on happening to be right, regardless of effort. The thing is that a fair God could only punish and reward us based on how hard we tried, not on whether or not we were actually right.

Oh, and here's a counter to your reasoning that punishing something that was done unknowingly is bad.

Take a young child who runs in the house. That is not only not okay, it's not safe, either for the child or other people. But the child does not know this. Using this knowledge, the child, if he or she continuously does this after being told over and over not to, has to be punished somehow. But with your logic, nothing should be done and the child should continue to run around until he or she breaks something, either part of his or her body or something else.

And I'd like to say that my definition of punishment is to teach a lesson. (which is a major reason why I don't agree with the death penalty, 'cause that doesn't teach anyone anything)

I don't see how this is the same. Once the child has been told that it is wrong to run in the house, they know that they are doing something wrong. Therefore they can be fairly punished because they done something that they knew was wrong. Of course, if they did not know that they were doing anything wrong, then it would not be fair to punish them.

 

[Muffled]

Imagine someone who tries their absolute hardest to be a good person and to find truth, but they happen to come to the conclusion that Christianity is false (there is plenty of them). Do you believe that this person will be punished in anyway by God for not believing? What does the Bible have to say about someone who did the best they could possibly ever do, but came to a false conclusion?

For those who do believe that God punishes and rewards based on what we think is true, can you please explain how this is anything less than pure and utter evil?[/quote]

Yes. God will punish those who commit sin. By not believing that Jesus can save you from your sin you are going to continue in your sin. Your beliefs detemine your actions and your actions will either be rewarded or punished.

I am not sure that this happens much in the Bible but I reminded of the story told by Jesus of the rich man in Hell and Lazarus in Heaven. He wanted Abraham to send Lazarus to his family to testify so that his family might be saved and Abraham said "They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them." The rich man had a false belief that one more testimony would help but Abraham said it wasn't so. I suppose then the rich man could have gone away thinking how evil Abraham was for not sending Lazarus but he would have been wrong in believing that also.

All sin has the same root, rebellion against God. God says it and the sinner says "I don't believe it" which is basically what the serpent did in the garden: bring God's word into question. The truth is that in your rebellion against God, you truly think you know better than He does. The very fact that you think you can judge God as evil indicates that you think you know more than He does. It is the original sin to think that you are greater than God.

 

[ayani]

Imagine someone who tries their absolute hardest to be a good person and to find truth, but they happen to come to the conclusion that Christianity is false (there is plenty of them). Do you believe that this person will be punished in anyway by God for not believing? What does the Bible have to say about someone who did the best they could possibly ever do, but came to a false conclusion?

For those who do believe that God punishes and rewards based on what we think is true, can you please explain how this is anything less than pure and utter evil?

Holdem, consider the parable of the Good Samaritan. what many fail to realize is that Samaritans were not just ethnically different from the Jews - religiously, they were regarded as heretics.

who does a better job of doing the Father's work? a Hindu who is kind, selfless, grateful for what God has given Him, and merciful towards His neighbor, or a Baptist pastor who treats others with indifference and contempt, and who cares only about material posessions?

what is important about Christ, though, is not just His ethical teachings, but Who He is in relation to God, and what that mean for us. a person can live an outwardly good, productive, kind, and giving life, and yet spiritually, not know God nor walk with Him. he does what is good and right so far as Christ's teachings, yet His heart is far from knowing the Living God who made him, or truly knowing what it is to live for Him and in Him. Christ came so that we could have life, and have it in its full spiritual richness and abundance.

is it possible for everyone to come to Christ? Jesus Himself says that no one can come to Him unless the Father Who sent Him draws them. will God punish / destroy those who don't come, or who never get the chance? the Bible is silent on the specifics of the matter, but i would conclude that as God knows our hearts, our intentions, our struggles, and our hopes better than we, and that He knows full well those who do their best, who are apreciative and thankful for what He has given them, and those who love and serve their neighbor, that He would not reward such a life with hellfire.

such a life is well-spent by any measure, and there are many Christians who would do well to learn from that example. what remains true, however, is that one's inner, spirtual landscape in incomplete without the mediting and reconciling presence of Christ Jesus- who through Himself reconciles us to our Creator, and gives us new life, sharing in the complete joy that is His- the joy of personally knowing and walking with the God Who has given us life.

 

[HoldemDB9]

What does the Bible have to say about someone who did the best they could possibly ever do, but came to a false conclusion?

I don't know exactly. Some Christians say that those who try their best will have absolutely no problem getting into heaven, since they tried their best. Others say that they will be deservedly punished, but at the same time God is not evil by doing this - which sounds absolutely insane to me and I believe its an insult to God.

So I do not know what the Bible says about this, please tell me what you think so that I know which side you are actually on.

Yes. God will punish those who commit sin. By not believing that Jesus can save you from your sin you are going to continue in your sin. Your beliefs detemine your actions and your actions will either be rewarded or punished.

Ok I understand what you are saying, but it still does not answer my question. You are saying that if people don't believe in Jesus, they will sin. And if they do believe in Jesus they will not sin. Ok, but I asked about those who did their best but did not beleive in Jesus? Are you telling me that God will punish us for things which were not our fault?

Although this is a bit off topic, I thought Id also say that I'm probably a nicer, honest and more morally obliged person than 95% of Christians I've ever met or even heard of. So the whole "believe in Jesus and you will be good but don't believe and you will be bad" thing just sounds like utter BS to me.

I am not sure that this happens much in the Bible but I reminded of the story told by Jesus of the rich man in Hell and Lazarus in Heaven. He wanted Abraham to send Lazarus to his family to testify so that his family might be saved and Abraham said "They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them." The rich man had a false belief that one more testimony would help but Abraham said it wasn't so. I suppose then the rich man could have gone away thinking how evil Abraham was for not sending Lazarus but he would have been wrong in believing that also.

I have no idea what you mean here.

All sin has the same root, rebellion against God. God says it and the sinner says "I don't believe it" which is basically what the serpent did in the garden: bring God's word into question.

I agree that sin is rebelling against God, if he exists. But when I say sin, I mean doing bad things. Not things that the Bible say are sin, since I do not believe that the Bible is true.

The truth is that in your rebellion against God, you truly think you know better than He does. The very fact that you think you can judge God as evil indicates that you think you know more than He does. It is the original sin to think that you are greater than God.

What exactly is rebelling against God to you? Are you still talking about doing bad things or do you mean that by not believing in Jesus, I am rebelling against God? I do not at all think that I am greater in anyway than God, so I don't know where on earth you got that from.

And I am not judging God as evil. I am saying that most Christians perception of God is evil.

 

[DarkSun]

Holdem, consider the parable of the Good Samaritan. what many fail to realize is that Samaritans were not just ethnically different from the Jews - religiously, they were regarded as heretics.

who does a better job of doing the Father's work? a Hindu who is kind, selfless, grateful for what God has given Him, and merciful towards His neighbor, or a Baptist pastor who treats others with indifference and contempt, and who cares only about material posessions?

what is important about Christ, though, is not just His ethical teachings, but Who He is in relation to God, and what that mean for us. a person can live an outwardly good, productive, kind, and giving life, and yet spiritually, not know God nor walk with Him. he does what is good and right so far as Christ's teachings, yet His heart is far from knowing the Living God who made him, or truly knowing what it is to live for Him and in Him. Christ came so that we could have life, and have it in its full spiritual richness and abundance.

is it possible for everyone to come to Christ? Jesus Himself says that no one can come to Him unless the Father Who sent Him draws them. will God punish / destroy those who don't come, or who never get the chance? the Bible is silent on the specifics of the matter, but i would conclude that as God knows our hearts, our intentions, our struggles, and our hopes better than we, and that He knows full well those who do their best, who are apreciative and thankful for what He has given them, and those who love and serve their neighbor, that He would not reward such a life with hellfire.

such a life is well-spent by any measure, and there are many Christians who would do well to learn from that example. what remains true, however, is that one's inner, spirtual landscape in incomplete without the mediting and reconciling presence of Christ Jesus- who through Himself reconciles us to our Creator, and gives us new life, sharing in the complete joy that is His- the joy of personally knowing and walking with the God Who has given us life.

Darn, I'm out of Frubals.