Question about Christianity.

[HoldemDB9]

Holdem, consider the parable of the Good Samaritan. what many fail to realize is that Samaritans were not just ethnically different from the Jews - religiously, they were regarded as heretics.

who does a better job of doing the Father's work? a Hindu who is kind, selfless, grateful for what God has given Him, and merciful towards His neighbor, or a Baptist pastor who treats others with indifference and contempt, and who cares only about material posessions?

what is important about Christ, though, is not just His ethical teachings, but Who He is in relation to God, and what that mean for us. a person can live an outwardly good, productive, kind, and giving life, and yet spiritually, not know God nor walk with Him. he does what is good and right so far as Christ's teachings, yet His heart is far from knowing the Living God who made him, or truly knowing what it is to live for Him and in Him. Christ came so that we could have life, and have it in its full spiritual richness and abundance.

is it possible for everyone to come to Christ? Jesus Himself says that no one can come to Him unless the Father Who sent Him draws them. will God punish / destroy those who don't come, or who never get the chance? the Bible is silent on the specifics of the matter, but i would conclude that as God knows our hearts, our intentions, our struggles, and our hopes better than we, and that He knows full well those who do their best, who are apreciative and thankful for what He has given them, and those who love and serve their neighbor, that He would not reward such a life with hellfire.

such a life is well-spent by any measure, and there are many Christians who would do well to learn from that example. what remains true, however, is that one's inner, spirtual landscape in incomplete without the mediting and reconciling presence of Christ Jesus- who through Himself reconciles us to our Creator, and gives us new life, sharing in the complete joy that is His- the joy of personally knowing and walking with the God Who has given us life.

If only all Christians were like you. Great post!

 

[Riverwolf]

I'm sorry, it was not you who said it, it was MoonWater. I got you two mixed up.

Well, MoonWater is my girlfriend, so...

You are right, this situation is beyond our control. Just like trying your best to find truth and coming to the wrong conclusion is also beyond your control.

If there's only one right answer, then coming to the wrong conclusion is beyond our control. But have you ever heard the Buddhist parable of the blind men and the elephant?

But what if I don't want to change my beliefs? Is that my choice also? Of course I don't want to convert to Christianity, because I have absolutely no reason to believe that Christianity is true. Is it also my choice that I have no reasons? I sure could try and become a Christian, but to do that I would have to be extremely dishonest with myself, I would have to go against what I truly believed was right.

And what you truly believe is right can change at your discretion.
What I truly believed was right long ago has changed, as I grow older, and will continue to change in the future.

Anyway like I said, even if you can choose your beliefs, Christianity still does not make sense because to be rewarded you have to choose the one that happens to be true. Once you've tried your best, whether or not you are right is just luck.

See above.

So because it is actually possible for you to have become a Christian in this life, you think its perfectly fine for God to punish you for "choosing" the way that just happened to be wrong? And its also fine for God to reward Christians who "chose" the way which just happened to be true, even though they did not really look into their beliefs or try to find truth?

What I believe is "okay" is not what others think is "okay". Such things are subjective.

Id say most Christians are like this, but they feel that as long as their right, they will be fine. They put so much emphasis on happening to be right, regardless of effort. The thing is that a fair God could only punish and reward us based on how hard we tried, not on whether or not we were actually right.

Since when was anything ever "fair"? Such a concept doesn't exist in nature.

I don't see how this is the same. Once the child has been told that it is wrong to run in the house, they know that they are doing something wrong. Therefore they can be fairly punished because they done something that they knew was wrong. Of course, if they did not know that they were doing anything wrong, then it would not be fair to punish them.

My point is, if you don't punish someone who doesn't know they're doing something wrong, they'll never learn, and continue to do things wrong. And a 2 year old will never remember the time when you said not to run in the house.

 

[Riverwolf]

Holdem, consider the parable of the Good Samaritan. what many fail to realize is that Samaritans were not just ethnically different from the Jews - religiously, they were regarded as heretics.

who does a better job of doing the Father's work? a Hindu who is kind, selfless, grateful for what God has given Him, and merciful towards His neighbor, or a Baptist pastor who treats others with indifference and contempt, and who cares only about material posessions?

what is important about Christ, though, is not just His ethical teachings, but Who He is in relation to God, and what that mean for us. a person can live an outwardly good, productive, kind, and giving life, and yet spiritually, not know God nor walk with Him. he does what is good and right so far as Christ's teachings, yet His heart is far from knowing the Living God who made him, or truly knowing what it is to live for Him and in Him. Christ came so that we could have life, and have it in its full spiritual richness and abundance.

is it possible for everyone to come to Christ? Jesus Himself says that no one can come to Him unless the Father Who sent Him draws them. will God punish / destroy those who don't come, or who never get the chance? the Bible is silent on the specifics of the matter, but i would conclude that as God knows our hearts, our intentions, our struggles, and our hopes better than we, and that He knows full well those who do their best, who are apreciative and thankful for what He has given them, and those who love and serve their neighbor, that He would not reward such a life with hellfire.

such a life is well-spent by any measure, and there are many Christians who would do well to learn from that example. what remains true, however, is that one's inner, spirtual landscape in incomplete without the mediting and reconciling presence of Christ Jesus- who through Himself reconciles us to our Creator, and gives us new life, sharing in the complete joy that is His- the joy of personally knowing and walking with the God Who has given us life.

THIS is the kind of Christianity I'd follow if I ever converted.

Great words, ayani.

 

[Riverwolf]

Yes. God will punish those who commit sin. By not believing that Jesus can save you from your sin you are going to continue in your sin. Your beliefs detemine your actions and your actions will either be rewarded or punished.

I agree with Holdem here, that this kind of thing is nonsense.

Tell me: who is more worthy of heaven: a man who does nothing but sit on his knees praying and thanking God but doing nothing else, or an atheist who doesn't think about God at all but lives for others, gives what he has to the poor every chance he gets, doesn't mention what good he does for others either frequently to himself or others, doesn't draw attention to himself at all, works whatever job he can get to the best of his natural abilities and better (even if his job is a janitor), and accepts whatever life throws at him and is thankful for what he has instead of hording material goods and constantly wishing for more?

 

[DallasApple]

People who follow Jesus are not sinless..Sorry to tell you..I have not met a single person ever..in my 41 years of life who was without sin Christian or otherwise..Jesus is someone to try and mimick as closely as possible.Because I believe..He was perfect.

Love

Dallas

 

[Mister Emu]

I agree with Holdem here, that this kind of thing is nonsense.

Tell me: who is more worthy of heaven: a man who does nothing but sit on his knees praying and thanking God but doing nothing else, or an atheist who doesn't think about God at all but lives for others, gives what he has to the poor every chance he gets, doesn't mention what good he does for others either frequently to himself or others, doesn't draw attention to himself at all, works whatever job he can get to the best of his natural abilities and better (even if his job is a janitor), and accepts whatever life throws at him and is thankful for what he has instead of hording material goods and constantly wishing for more?

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Neither man is worthy of heaven at all...

 

[Riverwolf]

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Neither man is worthy of heaven at all...

The latter man doesn't boast at all. In fact, he pretty much forgets his deeds soon after they're done.


And using that quote, I guess we're all screwed, huh?

 

[HoldemDB9]

Neither man is worthy of heaven at all...

Unless they simply "choose" to have faith in the religion that just happens to be true right? In other words, if they get lucky?

 

[Mister Emu]

Unless they simply "choose" to have faith in the religion that just happens to be true right?

No, even believing in Jesus doesn't make us worthy...

 

[DarkSun]

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Neither man is worthy of heaven at all...

I'll just repaste this here:

Psalm 24:4-5 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

Psalm 37:18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.

James 2:14-17 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? . . . Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

James 2:22 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Revelation 22:12 Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.

Romans 2:14-16 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

No, even believing in Jesus doesn't make us worthy...

So according to you, it's not only the seventy percent of people who don't believe in Christ that are going to Hell, but everyone who just happens to be imperfect? Right. So who does gain entrance to Heaven besides the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

 

[Mister Emu]

So according to you, it's not only the seventy percent of people who don't believe in Christ that are going to Hell, but everyone who just happens to be imperfect? Right.

No.

Read post #12 for my views instead of jumping to conclusions

 

[DarkSun]

No.

Read post #12 for my views instead of jumping to conclusions

My bad, sorry...

 

[Mister Emu]

Its all good