Question about oxygen levels

[Subduction Zone]

For one claiming to be a Methodist, exactly how is Jesus’ sacrifice important to you? Magic? Or God’s power?
Or doesn’t God have any power? (That’s the impression I get from you.)
My answer is what Jesus said….”you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.” -Mark 12:24

What was God’s purpose for causing the Flood? (It wasn’t to destroy the planet!) Why would it need to be worldwide (as the account indicates by having the Ark float for so long)?



“No idea what you mean.”
Uh-huh.

Look at the Canadian Rockies, or parts of the Alps, the Himalayas, and the Andes.
They exhibit features that are young-looking….certainly not enduring millions of years of extreme weathering!


“…cultural contamination…”
I’ve heard that counter argument before, but I’ve never read any evidence supporting that conclusion.
Just hopes… I mean, it has to be that, right? Academics can’t allow for any God doing anything.

“A mammoth….”
?????
Please… I’d hoped you would stay amiable & open minded. But when you feel you have to start misrepresenting the evidence, i have to say goodbye.

And there you go with extreme hand waving again. Yes, the Rockies and Andes are young mountains. They are only millions of years old. Do you have any evidence at all that they would be worn down in just a few tens of millions of years?

 

[crossfire]

And there you go with extreme hand waving again. Yes, the Rockies and Andes are young mountains. They are only millions of years old. Do you have any evidence at all that they would be worn down in just a few tens of millions of years?

The geological processes that are building those mountains are still going on, correct? One would have to calculate the difference between these building processes and erosion processes, no?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The geological processes that are building those mountains are still going on, correct? One would have to calculate the difference between these building processes and erosion processes, no?

And the types of rock.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

That crazy water canopy theory alone would have boiled Noah and everything on the ark alive like an unlucky bright red lobster.

Source?

We’re not talking about a building.

Earth’s atmosphere is huge… it would absorb and dissipate the energy generated.
It was not all water from above.
And it’s not a closed system, either.
With the canopy ruptured, it would be even more open! It’s what formed the last Ice Age.

There may have been previous ones. The Earth has existed for billions of years.

I’m not constrained by any YEC view. At least regarding the planet.

 

[crossfire]

Source?

We’re not talking about a building.

Earth’s atmosphere is huge… it would absorb and dissipate the energy generated.
It was not all water from above.
And it’s not a closed system, either.
With the canopy ruptured, it would be even more open! It’s what formed the last Ice Age.

There may have been previous ones. The Earth has existed for billions of years.

I’m not constrained by any YEC view. At least regarding the planet.

Could the "firmament" separating the waters above from the waters below refer to the glaciers that were thousands of feet high, separating the superglacial lakes above the glaciers which covered the mountains (waters above) from the subglacial lakes below the glaciers (great watery deep?) That's how I interpret it if it is describing what happened at the end of the last glaciation, and what caused the megafloods at that time.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Without a testable hypothesis by definition you cannot have evidence in the world of science.

This is useful
I’m sure I’ll use this definition.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Could the "firmament" separating the waters above from the waters below refer to the glaciers that were thousands of feet high, separating the superglacial lakes above the glaciers which covered the mountains (waters above) from the subglacial lakes below the glaciers (great watery deep?) That's how I interpret it if it is describing what happened at the end of the last glaciation, and what caused the megafloods at that time.

First of all, I’d like to say that I appreciate your friendly approach to our discussion, thanks.

How I understand it, is this:
With “waters above” the Earth, it would provide a warm atmosphere in *most* places…Of course, the extreme northern & southern latitudes would be colder, simple due to Earth’s tilt. But the waters above would be an invisible (at least invisible to someone on the ground) blanket-like protection so not only would it provide somewhat warmer temperatures, but also serve as a layer of absorption for the Sun’s radiation. IOW, there would’ve been less.

That would wreak havoc on the current methods of determining ages through radiometric dating.

But if it was warmer, prior to the Flood, then I don’t see how there could’ve been any glaciation before the event… but certainly after it. (The Bible indicates the Flood happened around November, ie., wintertime.)
And when Summer came, it would cause massive thawing, and those mega-floods, like the ones discovered in the Northwest USA areas, would occur.

What are your thoughts?

TTYL, tomorrow maybe. Going to bed now.

Take care.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Source?

We’re not talking about a building.

Earth’s atmosphere is huge… it would absorb and dissipate the energy generated.
It was not all water from above.
And it’s not a closed system, either.
With the canopy ruptured, it would be even more open! It’s what formed the last Ice Age.

There may have been previous ones. The Earth has existed for billions of years.

I’m not constrained by any YEC view. At least regarding the planet.

Source?

The water canopy is a religious myth! Nonsense. Pseudoscience! Lol.

The Vapor Canopy Hypothesis Holds No Water

Snippet...

How could an atmosphere almost 100% water vapor not condense? The temperature would have to be raised to the point where the partial pressure of water equals 900 atmospheres, i.e. the boiling point at that pressure. So we find Noah et al. living in a 13,000psi boiler. Is this credible?

 

[Subduction Zone]

This is useful
I’m sure I’ll use this definition.

I am pretty sure that you do not understand it. But I wish that you would. Do you think that the theory of evolution cannot be tested? You would be quite wrong if you thought that.

If you need any help applying it I will be happy to help you.

 

[Subduction Zone]

First of all, I’d like to say that I appreciate your friendly approach to our discussion, thanks.

How I understand it, is this:
With “waters above” the Earth, it would provide a warm atmosphere in *most* places…Of course, the extreme northern & southern latitudes would be colder, simple due to Earth’s tilt. But the waters above would be an invisible (at least invisible to someone on the ground) blanket-like protection so not only would it provide somewhat warmer temperatures, but also serve as a layer of absorption for the Sun’s radiation. IOW, there would’ve been less.

That would wreak havoc on the current methods of determining ages through radiometric dating.

But if it was warmer, prior to the Flood, then I don’t see how there could’ve been any glaciation before the event… but certainly after it. (The Bible indicates the Flood happened around November, ie., wintertime.)
And when Summer came, it would cause massive thawing, and those mega-floods, like the ones discovered in the Northwest USA areas, would occur.

What are your thoughts?

TTYL, tomorrow maybe. Going to bed now.

Take care.

Why would the water canopy "wreak havoc" on dating? You need to come up with a valid explanation of why that is the case. And where was this canopy? Please be precise.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The geological processes that are building those mountains are still going on, correct? One would have to calculate the difference between these building processes and erosion processes, no?

Yes, and I do believe that has been done. There are various items that can be shown to be old that way. Unfortunately I broke my mouse last night. It fell off the desk and will not click. So I am having difficulties using my keyboard as a "mouse". It makes it much more difficult to link for me. I have done it once and with practice should be able to do it again, but I think that I will have a replacement mouse by then.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

For one claiming to be a Methodist, exactly how is Jesus’ sacrifice important to you? Magic? Or God’s power?
Or doesn’t God have any power? (That’s the impression I get from you.)
My answer is what Jesus said….”you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.” -Mark 12:24

What was God’s purpose for causing the Flood? (It wasn’t to destroy the planet!) Why would it need to be worldwide (as the account indicates by having the Ark float for so long)?

What you want to conclude about my religious views is not germane to a discussion of the actuality of a global flood and I can only see it as a diversionary tactic and passive attack on my faith. I'm not going to take the bait.

“No idea what you mean.”
Uh-huh.

Look at the Canadian Rockies, or parts of the Alps, the Himalayas, and the Andes.
They exhibit features that are young-looking….certainly not enduring millions of years of extreme weathering!

What they look like to you isn't the definitive evidence for determining their age. Helen Mirren, Dianne Lane, Marisa Tomei and Queen Latifah are all over 50 and look pretty wonderful to me. Does that mean they aren't over 50?

“…cultural contamination…”
I’ve heard that counter argument before, but I’ve never read any evidence supporting that conclusion.
Just hopes… I mean, it has to be that, right? Academics can’t allow for any God doing anything.

You've heard it before, because there is evidence supporting and you just want to wave it away. A conspiracy theory involving academia isn't going to make your beliefs into facts.

“A mammoth….”
?????
Please… I’d hoped you would stay amiable & open minded. But when you feel you have to start misrepresenting the evidence, i have to say goodbye.

I am amiable and open minded but that doesn't mean accept something without question or accept false information as it were fact.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

No, I never said “all”!

Misrepresentation & gross generalization of what I’ve said.
Just stop.

Generalizing speculation isn't misrepresentation. That you think any of them were made in a single year is speculation regardless. There is no evidence for it and it leads to more questions you have to come up with wild speculation in response to.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Regarding cultural contamination of Flood legends:

…because there is evidence supporting….

Then post it.

All I’ve ever read is speculation…

That's a lot of “contamination”! And a lot of coincidences.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Regarding cultural contamination of Flood legends:


Then post it.

All I’ve ever read is speculation…

That's a lot of “contamination”! And a lot of coincidences.

No. Not really. And once again when you claim "speculation" that puts a burden of proof upon you. Since you cannot properly support any of your claims that is not a wise move. It is no coincidence that early tribal villages tended to be on water ways. When there are a sizable number of people living together a guaranteed source of fresh water is needed. Streams are a very good source of fresh water, and the also flood quite frequently so myths about flood arising all over the world is to be expected.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Regarding cultural contamination of Flood legends:


Then post it.

All I’ve ever read is speculation…

That's a lot of “contamination”! And a lot of coincidences.

I know you have to keep this argument alive anyway you can, since you cannot provide more than speculation, but my valid criticism is not speculation. I know for a fact that all that you have read is not speculation, because examples have been posted on the flood threads you have participated in as I recall.

Since not all cultures have flood myths and those that do are not all global flood myths, the obvious culture contamination along trade routes and closely associated cultures is not that much. Not a lot of contamination at all.

You cannot find reasonable rejection of the story of Gilgamesh as a cultural contamination and the source of the Biblical account or the obvious refashioning of the Biblical flood story among cultures closely tied to Judaism and Christianity. A more recent example involves some native American tribes with a flood myth that was almost exactly like the Biblical flood story. Amazing until it was discovered that they got the original version from missionaries.

I am aware that you cannot support the occurrence of a global flood as described in the Bible. No one can. But you have come up some very amusing and imaginative attempts.

Check out David Montgomery's book "The Rocks Don't Lie". He provides examples of the cultural contamination associated with the Biblical story as well a much other information and evidence that lead to a rational rejection of the idea of a global flood.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

No. Not really. And once again when you claim "speculation" that puts a burden of proof upon you. Since you cannot properly support any of your claims that is not a wise move. It is no coincidence that early tribal villages tended to be on water ways. When there are a sizable number of people living together a guaranteed source of fresh water is needed. Streams are a very good source of fresh water, and the also flood quite frequently so myths about flood arising all over the world is to be expected.

That's the thing. There is no universal mythology of global flooding. Some cultures have it. Some close cultures share the same mythology from cultural exchange. Some cultures don't have flood myths or much to speak of.

The implication I keep seeing repeated is that the story of a global flood is universal and present in all cultures. It simply isn't.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I know you have to keep this argument alive anyway you can, since you cannot provide more than speculation, but my valid criticism is not speculation. I know for a fact that all that you have read is not speculation, because examples have been posted on the flood threads you have participated in as I recall.

Since not all cultures have flood myths and those that do are not all global flood myths, the obvious culture contamination along trade routes and closely associated cultures is not that much. Not a lot of contamination at all.

You cannot find reasonable rejection of the story of Gilgamesh as a cultural contamination and the source of the Biblical account or the obvious refashioning of the Biblical flood story among cultures closely tied to Judaism and Christianity. A more recent example involves some native American tribes with a flood myth that was almost exactly like the Biblical flood story. Amazing until it was discovered that they got the original version from missionaries.

I am aware that you cannot support the occurrence of a global flood as described in the Bible. No one can. But you have come up some very amusing and imaginative attempts.

Check out David Montgomery's book "The Rocks Don't Lie". He provides examples of the cultural contamination associated with the Biblical story as well a much other information and evidence that lead to a rational rejection of the idea of a global flood.

An interesting point on the epic of Gilgamesh and its predecessor. Those are Accadian stories. And as we know languages of countries can affect the languages of their neighbors. I do believe that it is thought right now that the Noah's Ark myth was formed during the Babylonian captivity. And language is one of the clues. The ark was lined with pitch and the word that is used for that in the Torah is one of Accadian origin. Yes, it means "pitch" in Hebrew too, but what is telling is that the Hebrews also had their own very different word for pitch. The only place where that particular version of the word pitch is used in the Bible is in the Noah's Ark story. In other parts of the Bible the Hebrew version was used.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

An interesting point on the epic of Gilgamesh and its predecessor. Those are Accadian stories. And as we know languages of countries can affect the languages of their neighbors. I do believe that it is thought right now that the Noah's Ark myth was formed during the Babylonian captivity. And language is one of the clues. The ark was lined with pitch and the word that is used for that in the Torah is one of Accadian origin. Yes, it means "pitch" in Hebrew too, but what is telling is that the Hebrews also had their own very different word for pitch. The only place where that particular version of the word pitch is used in the Bible is in the Noah's Ark story. In other parts of the Bible the Hebrew version was used.

That is interesting. A detail for which I have been previously unaware.

I like finding out the origin of supposedly English words that were derived from contamination from other cultures. Jungle, banana, guru, etc.

I find this amusing. The quonset hut is a term of American origin derived from Algonquian that is now also used by native English speakers in England where such structures are also known as Nissen huts. Cultural cross contamination. In this case intermingling of culture during WWII.

I also find it amusing to realize that there are people that do not understand (perhaps don't want to understand) that ancient cultures intermingled just as modern cultures do and exchanged ideas, even stole ideas from each other and shared stories.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I know you have to keep this argument alive anyway you can, since you cannot provide more than speculation, but my valid criticism is not speculation. I know for a fact that all that you have read is not speculation, because examples have been posted on the flood threads you have participated in as I recall.

Since not all cultures have flood myths and those that do are not all global flood myths, the obvious culture contamination along trade routes and closely associated cultures is not that much. Not a lot of contamination at all.

You cannot find reasonable rejection of the story of Gilgamesh as a cultural contamination and the source of the Biblical account or the obvious refashioning of the Biblical flood story among cultures closely tied to Judaism and Christianity. A more recent example involves some native American tribes with a flood myth that was almost exactly like the Biblical flood story. Amazing until it was discovered that they got the original version from missionaries.

I am aware that you cannot support the occurrence of a global flood as described in the Bible. No one can. But you have come up some very amusing and imaginative attempts.

Check out David Montgomery's book "The Rocks Don't Lie". He provides examples of the cultural contamination associated with the Biblical story as well a much other information and evidence that lead to a rational rejection of the idea of a global flood.

You really are dismissive.
Lol.
You said that Native Americans copied their Flood legends from the missionaries?
I found just the opposite:

And Mr. Montgomery’s book links the Flood narrative in Genesis with YEC concepts, which seems to be a disingenuous habit among geologists.

For the record, there are no currently understood natural processes that can account for the Pleistocene megafauna found across the Northern Hemisphere within the Permafrost.
Only the Flood explains that evidence.
So it’s best to ignore it, eh? Or at least minimize it.
“A mammoth”….. that was rich!