Question for Atheists...

[Heyo]

You think that, say, polytheists and evangelicals are all deists? Give your head a shake.

You don't think that polytheists and evangelicals believe in gods?

The question here is whether deists believe that god doesn't intervene or they don't believe that it intervenes.
In the first case the subsets of believers are distinct, i.e. theists are not deists and deists are not theists, in the second case theists are deists but deists aren't theists.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You don't think that polytheists and evangelicals believe in gods?

I do. I don't think they believe in a deistic god.

The question here is whether deists believe that god doesn't intervene or they don't believe that it intervenes.
In the first case the subsets of believers are distinct, i.e. theists are not deists and deists are not theists, in the second case theists are deists but deists aren't theists.

Is that the question here?

Edit: surely this isn't the first time you've tried to make these arguments and run up against a bunch of "WTF?", is it?

 

[F1fan]

Interesting, I think atheists are like the people staring the shadows and thinking what they see must be all.

Really? Explain your thinking. What are atheists missing? Use facts.

 

[F1fan]

Pantheist is a misnomer. It is not a form of theism, it is a form of deism.

I think you have this backwards, theism is a broad set of belief in some sort of god, and Deism is a category of belief in a certain type of god.

When a naturalist "believes" in telepathy, they assume a natural way it can be explained. Some form of wave that can be emitted by and detected by a brain. They can be swayed by evidence.

I think "belief" in this scenario is not dead set, hard core certainty as we see in believers. There have been studies of telepathy to see if it is a thing. There have been claims of telpathy, and rational folks have investigated. Yes, it is assumed that if it is a thing then it has a natural cause and explanation. I'm not aware of any research that verifies it's an actual thing.

When a supernaturalist believes in telepathy, they don't care about scientific explanations, nor do they think there are any or need to be. Scientific evidence won't sway their opinion.

That is the liability of belief in a supernatural. The belief that there are effects on nature that have causes that can't be explained with a natural phenomenon has no basis. Theists inherit a belief system that is less and less justifiable, and we see those who want to debate get more desperate and outrageous.

 

[Heyo]

I do. I don't think they believe in a deistic god.



Is that the question here?

Edit: surely this isn't the first time you've tried to make these arguments and run up against a bunch of "WTF?", is it?

Maths isn't a very popular topic and set theory even less.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Maths isn't a very popular topic and set theory even less.

Heh... I'd say that if you're calling anything you've said here "set theory", you're being overly generous.

 

[Heyo]

Heh... I'd say that if you're calling anything you've said here "set theory", you're being overly generous.

Well, it is.
We are discussing the set of believers. Theists and deists are subsets of believers. The question is whether they are distinct sets or one is a subset of the other. You can draw the Venn diagrams if you need a visualization.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well, it is.
We are discussing the set of believers. Theists and deists are subsets of believers. The question is whether they are distinct sets or one is a subset of the other. You can draw the Venn diagrams if you need a visualization.

Maybe drawings would help, since you seem to be struggling with understanding text.

 

[Heyo]

Maybe drawings would help, since you seem to be struggling with understanding text.

Here we have one possible set of sets:
B - People who believe things without evidence, believers.
D - People who believe in god or gods, deists.
T - People who believe in god or gods and believe that god or gods mess with reality, theists.

 

[Heyo]

Maybe drawings would help, since you seem to be struggling with understanding text.

Alternative model:

B - People who believe things without evidence, believers.
D - People who believe in god or gods and believe that god or gods don't mess with reality, deists.
T - People who believe in god or gods and believe that god or gods mess with reality, theists.

 

[Yerda]

What caused you to stop believing in the supernatural?

If I'm really honest I didn't stop believing so much as it stopped making sense. I'm happy to entertain the idea of the non-physical, and I find it meaningful if someone what difficult to grasp at times. But supernatural is a word that doesn't really mean anything to me anymore. Gods might exist - but if they do I expect that I would modify my concept of nature to include gods.

Believing in the supernatural is not rational but at one time, I couldn't see that. It seemed the most rational thing in the world to believe in the supernatural. I did so without question. Rational meaning to develop your thoughts based on reason and logic. I suppose I lack a rational mind but didn't know it. The only requirement to be rational, I thought, was to have a brain.

It depends upon what it means to believe in the supernatural. What does it mean to you?

I suspect I kept asking why and how. Perhaps that simply causes one's mind to become more rational overtime.

I think that the beliefs cease being useful for us.

 

[bobhikes]

​

What caused you to stop believing in the supernatural?

Believing in the supernatural is not rational but at one time, I couldn't see that. It seemed the most rational thing in the world to believe in the supernatural. I did so without question. Rational meaning to develop your thoughts based on reason and logic. I suppose I lack a rational mind but didn't know it. The only requirement to be rational, I thought, was to have a brain.

Or perhaps you never believed in them. Good for you. You were born with a more rational mind.

I suspect I kept asking why and how. Perhaps that simply causes one's mind to become more rational overtime.

In my opinion one who believes in God is doing it as a survival instinct. People need to continue with their daily life and they can't be second guessing everything, "god does it" satisfies the mind. This allows them to work on more important things and also remove some of the blame from them. Rather than deal with the randomness of the world, God presents a set of rules and goals for the mind to follow. For me I could never settle for "God does it" as with everything in my life, I want to know the why and how. So, I became a seeker, which God is the right one if any, why did God make human's special? Did God rule during the dinosaur time was there a dinosaur time? How old is the universe? In this multi-year search, I studied various religions, various supernatural creatures and events. During this time, I went from religious, to righteous atheist, then agnostic and finally a reasonable atheist. I believe if one with an open mind tries to find the truth it is achievable. I am glad I became a seeker and have no issues with being an atheist myself.

 

[Nakosis]

If I'm really honest I didn't stop believing so much as it stopped making sense. I'm happy to entertain the idea of the non-physical, and I find it meaningful if someone what difficult to grasp at times. But supernatural is a word that doesn't really mean anything to me anymore. Gods might exist - but if they do I expect that I would modify my concept of nature to include gods.


It depends upon what it means to believe in the supernatural. What does it mean to you?


I think that the beliefs cease being useful for us.

Supernatural, part of a non-physical reality.

Yes, I think I found that whatever benefits I thought I was getting from supernatural belief I no longer needed.

 

[1213]

Really? Explain your thinking. What are atheists missing? Use facts.

That ignorance is not a good reason to say "God is not real".

 

[1213]

Of the folks who managed to escape the cave. Don't you think one of them would have come back to those remaining in the cave with some physical evidence of the world outside of the cave?

What could be brought to the cave that would convince that there is something larger outside? They could not bring anything that would convince them about vast world.

 

[F1fan]

That ignorance is not a good reason to say "God is not real".

Who said "God is not real"?

You seem to be manufacturing claims for others who don't say this, and that is dishonest. Is that your intent, to be dishonest? Is that what Christians do?

Just respond to what critical thinkers actually DO say, and answer their questions. Why not demonstrate that any Gods actually exist outside of human imagination? Can't do it?

 

[Heyo]

That ignorance is not a good reason to say "God is not real".

It's not my ignorance I base my unbelief/Agnosticism on but that of the believers.

 

[Nakosis]

What could be brought to the cave that would convince that there is something larger outside? They could not bring anything that would convince them about vast world.

Some are being convince and slowly letting go of tribal religious beliefs and primitive superstitions.
Others, well they tire of the old shadows and imagine new ones to take their place.

 

[Kfox]

Being realistic and a skeptic helps too.

For me, being realistic and a skeptic was a part of growing up. Example; The idea that a whale can swallow an adult, and this adult remains in the belly of the whale without any air supply for 3 days, then gets vomited out of the whale and the human is still alive would fool me as a child, but when I grew up, I learned the throat of a whale is too small to swallow a human and even if it could, nobody can hold their breath for 3 days so such stories no longer made sense to me anymore. In order for me to remain a believer, I had to believe countless stories like the story of Jonah and the Whale/fish.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That ignorance is not a good reason to say "God is not real".

Ignorance isn't the reason people say that God is not real.