Question for Jews, Christians and Muslims

[waitasec]

Speaking as a black man whose grand father was born after his mother was raped by a slave owner, and a man of Christian faith I say slavery is right. We are all slave of the world today, though I don't agree with the unethical abuse of a slave. My family heritage was taken out of Africa and brought to America and given a chance at a better life. It was through this strife that my family has become hard working and honest. Even today I wake every morning and work hard to provide for my family just as those before me did. If not for the decision to take slaves my family would still be suffering of famine, disease and poverty. Slavery with out abuse is no different than working a nine to five with out the stress of worrying how to pay the bills. I honestly say thank you to the one that brought my family out of africa and gave us a chance!

[youtube]7diwQ5dHZ0U[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7diwQ5dHZ0U&feature=relmfu

 

[openyourmind]

You can't be serious. If you were a slave you wouldn't be able to buy anything to yourself. Do you like your tv, your cellphone, your computer, your bed? You would have to accept whatever your "owner" gave you, IF he gave you anything AT ALL. Did you disobey the "owner's" orders? You are gonna get a good beating for it. How about getting your daughter or sister raped because the "owner" wanted so? You don't know what you are talking about. You really don't.

Do enjoy these things yes. Do I need these things NO! My greatest times are spent with my kids and wife doing things as a family talking playing games. We love playing hide and seek in total darkness, it is a blast. So I know what things in my life are of true value.

You say I don't know what I'm talking about. Perhaps you should read my post again. I stated I don't agree in unethical treatment (beating, starving, rape,etc). I speak on life expirence and family history. What is you source of your stance?

 

[Koldo]

Sorry, but now you need to get up and work , no time to spend with your kids. Do you wanna give any confort to your family? Sorry, you can't. Ah, do you want your kids to study? Sorry, they have to work too.

You don't agree with the unethical treatment, and yet slavery by itself is unethical.
You have never been a slave, so you can not speak of life experience. Sorry to say.

 

[openyourmind]

Look around you are a slave as yoiuy stand and breath is it that diffficult to see. You want all these extras then you can go and chase them. You want to spend more time with you kids, nope you have to work there is a house to pay for. You want to take a break nope get back up there is a car to pay for and don't forget about the gas. Your back is hurt and want to lay down nope get back up you still need to put food on the table. I hope your partner didn't wear themself out working as you. If they aree just as tired who will make the food. You want your kids to learn you should teach them. Do you still have energy to give a little to them. I am a slave in life to today and just as those that came before me, my master is graceful and caring giving to me all I need. I still have energy and time to spend with my wife and kids. I take the time to help them learn not just what's in a book. What's more important is my unconditional love and the value of a hard days work. I will be a slave to good master, you should stop and take a look. What is it your a slave to?

 

[waitasec]

Look around you are a slave as yoiuy stand and breath is it that diffficult to see.

in this case, a slave is subjected to their own shortcomings.

You want all these extras then you can go and chase them. You want to spend more time with you kids, nope you have to work there is a house to pay for.

it's called prioritizing your priorities...

You want to take a break nope get back up there is a car to pay for and don't forget about the gas. Your back is hurt and want to lay down nope get back up you still need to put food on the table. I hope your partner didn't wear themself out working as you.

we are all in the same boat..some of us live beyond our means, some of us know how to budget time, energy and money some don't...what does this have anything to do with god...there are plenty of people who do not have faith in god and are able to do these things just fine...it has more to do with the choices and the consequences in life...and how one deals with it, either take responsibility or not...

I am a slave in life to today and just as those that came before me, my master is graceful and caring giving to me all I need.

be consistent...do you or don't you have the time and energy to do all the things you were just talking about?

I still have energy and time to spend with my wife and kids. I take the time to help them learn not just what's in a book. What's more important is my unconditional love and the value of a hard days work. I will be a slave to good master, you should stop and take a look. What is it your a slave to?

oh i see, becasue you have the time and energy then you must have god on your side...but what about me? i too have the time and energy, where do i get it from? hmmm one wonders...

 

[Koldo]

IF i want a car, IF i want a house, IF i want a family[wife and kids].....

Those were all choices you made, you turned youself into a slave of your own objectives. You are to blame for those things.
I am free to choose those things, and so you are.

(Although i do agree that we are slaves to our OWN needs of food, water and oxygen. Otherwise we wouldn't live.)

In the case of slavery it is completly different. There is someone ordering you around. Someone who gets to pick what your objectives should be. You can aim for nothing unless someone else let you do so.

 

[Autodidact]

Hey, Ben, it's just something else for Jew bashing, don't ya know? Almost Straw Man.
Never mind that these laws were from an age where slavery was the norm, everywhere. I guess in the far future, the same type of people will demand to know why G-d didn't forbid the use of fossil fuel today. Since it's also evil, as the release of this geo stored carbon is destroying the ecosystem. Never mind that even if somehow G-d commanded this, hardly anyone would be willing to obey? Or able?

You will note that the thread is addressed to Jews, Christians and Muslims. I think all 3 have the same problem with their scripture.

Yes, they all come from a time and place when slavery was common. Are you saying that moral rules from these scriptures, including the Tanakh, are not relevant today?
The issue is not whether anyone would obey, but whether they should.
G-d specifically authorizes us to buy foreign slaves. Do you think it's morally right to do so?

 

[Autodidact]

Speaking as a black man whose grand father was born after his mother was raped by a slave owner, and a man of Christian faith I say slavery is right. We are all slave of the world today, though I don't agree with the unethical abuse of a slave. My family heritage was taken out of Africa and brought to America and given a chance at a better life. It was through this strife that my family has become hard working and honest. Even today I wake every morning and work hard to provide for my family just as those before me did. If not for the decision to take slaves my family would still be suffering of famine, disease and poverty. Slavery with out abuse is no different than working a nine to five with out the stress of worrying how to pay the bills. I honestly say thank you to the one that brought my family out of africa and gave us a chance!

I don't believe you.

 

[Flankerl]

G-d specifically authorizes us to buy foreign slaves. Do you think it's morally right to do so?

Then again whether you do it or not is up to you. And yeah morals evolve over time.

Its also allowed to eat fish but you dont have to.

 

[Autodidact]

Then again whether you do it or not is up to you. And yeah morals evolve over time.

Its also allowed to eat fish but you dont have to.

Nor do I consider eating fish immoral. I do however, consider owning human beings as property to be immoral. Do you?

 

[Koldo]

Flankert:

Hasn't God always been perfect?

His morals can not evolve over time.

Also, would you think it is fine for me to have you as a slave? How does that sound to you?

 

[Flankerl]

Not do I consider eating fish immoral. I do however, consider owning human beings as property to be immoral. Do you?

Well according to traditional judaism you cant own a person as property since the meaning of slave differs from other cultures. But if i continue on that people will see me as some evil slave holder.

Flankert:

Hasn't God always been perfect?

His morals can not evolve over time.

Also, would you think it is fine for me to have you as a slave? How does that sound to you?

You are Hashem. You've "shown" yourself to some... backwater shepherd in the middle of a desert.
Explain nuklear physics to him.


You have to understand the stories from the point of view from back then. Even if Hashem wanted to how should he explain this shepherd how physics work, how chemistry works, how the universe was created etc.
You keep it simple so that your target audience understands it.

Back then slavery was something normal. And iam sorry but the living conditions of slaves owned by jews were probably overall better than those of non jews as there are quite some rules for the jew who owns slaves.

 

[Zardoz]

...Yes, they all come from a time and place when slavery was common. Are you saying that moral rules from these scriptures, including the Tanakh, are not relevant today?...

Exactly the opposite, and I tried to show the relevancy of slavery in modern life, but you were the one insisting we keep focus on the type of slavery that no longer is relevant.

 

[PolyHedral]

You keep it simple so that your target audience understands it.

Or explain it all, if you have time. And God has plenty of time.

 

[Evandr]

Is slavery right or wrong?

Slavery is wrong because no one has the right to see themselves as being of greater value than another because in the eyes of God every soul is of great and equal worth.

In order to teach some people you have to avoid assaulting that which would cause them to turn away from your instruction even if the situation, one like the concept of slavery, is objectionable to you. Christ often taught the people the Gospel wrapping it around their incorrect social values without condoning such values in an effort to get them to listen and hopefully to change; that does not make what He did not come right and decry with directness an acceptable social venue. A slave master seeks to usurp the authority of God over another of God's children and no one has the right to do that.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

And iam sorry but the living conditions of slaves owned by jews were probably overall better than those of non jews as there are quite some rules for the jew who owns slaves.

Ah well thats all right then isnt it?

Jews are excused everyone...they were probably overall better at being humane slave owners than the rest of the species


Hehehehehehe....

 

[Flankerl]

I didnt write that anyone was excused but have fun believing it.

 

[Koldo]

You are Hashem. You've "shown" yourself to some... backwater shepherd in the middle of a desert.
Explain nuklear physics to him.


You have to understand the stories from the point of view from back then. Even if Hashem wanted to how should he explain this shepherd how physics work, how chemistry works, how the universe was created etc.
You keep it simple so that your target audience understands it.

Back then slavery was something normal. And iam sorry but the living conditions of slaves owned by jews were probably overall better than those of non jews as there are quite some rules for the jew who owns slaves.

There is a BIG flaw in your analogy. While teaching nuclear physics to a sheperd may be a long and enduring task, although surely possible, to teach someone that slavery is wrong is much easier. Why? Because the former is dependent on "intelligence", while the the latter depends on "morals".

Also, the teaching in the book is wrong, it is not merely in a simple form. It is like trying to teach how to do an equation explaining first that "2+2=5".

Slavery is wrong because no one has the right to see themselves as being of greater value than another because in the eyes of God every soul is of great and equal worth.

In order to teach some people you have to avoid assaulting that which would cause them to turn away from your instruction even if the situation, one like the concept of slavery, is objectionable to you. Christ often taught the people the Gospel wrapping it around their incorrect social values without condoning such values in an effort to get them to listen and hopefully to change; that does not make what He did not come right and decry with directness an acceptable social venue. A slave master seeks to usurp the authority of God over another of God's children and no one has the right to do that.

What's more important: 1) to teach people that "2+2=5" to make them get interested in studying?, or 2) to teach people that "2+2=4" regardless of their opinion, because it is the truth?

Teachers don't bend their teachings due to their students wishes.

 

[Flankerl]

There is a BIG flaw in your analogy. While teaching nuclear physics to a sheperd may be a long and enduring task, although surely possible, to teach someone that slavery is wrong is much easier. Why? Because the former is dependent on "intelligence", while the the latter depends on "morals".

Also, the teaching in the book is wrong, it is not merely in a simple form. It is like trying to teach how to do an equation explaining first that "2+2=5".

No its impossible to teach a shepherd over 3000 years ago the principle of nuklear physics. All the additional information needed is not possible to teach people from back then.


Morals? So you got the unrestricted slavery of non jews who can do with their slaves whatever they want and on the other hand you have strict rules for jewish slave holders of what they are allowed to do and how to behave towards their slaves.

Is that better than no slavery? No.
Is it better than unrestricted slavery? Yes.

 

[PolyHedral]

No its impossible to teach a shepherd over 3000 years ago the principle of nuklear physics. All the additional information needed is not possible to teach people from back then.

So we've physically changed drastically (as in "different species" level of drastic) in some way since then? Because that's the only way for what you say to be true. Good luck backing it up.