Question for Jews, Christians and Muslims

[Autodidact]

The problem is that some religions regard the OT as being the word of God. The word of God can not be fallible as he is a perfect being according to those very same religions.

Slavery is simply wrong, and this is obvious. If the OT is the word of God then God would have to condemn the slavery. Simple as that.

The simple solution here is that the OT is not the word of God.

Exactly. And that's the problem some of our readers are having. They believe it is, so this solution is not open to them.

 

[Autodidact]

God had nothing to do with slavery. This was a thing of man and not of God. Then, why are you so uptight with slavery? Hasn't slavery been abolished even before you were born? Maybe your forefathers were slave owners. I wonder why I smell the dirty being dug for the venial sins of Israel commited thousands of years ago.

Well that's simply not true. G-d told His people they could buy slaves. He told them who, and how, and how they could and could not treat them, and that they had to circumcise them, and quite a lot of other things. In fact G-d of the Tanakh had quite a lot to do with slavery.

Which, I understand, you don't see as a problem. Because you accept that moral system, correct?

 

[Autodidact]

As I have told you in the post above, God never had anything to do with slavery. These were instructions given by human ledgislators who, to enhance them with the Divine approval, would metaphorically attribute them to God, so as to enhance the feeling that they had been ordained by higher authority. We cannot be that literal with the Scriptures as if God Himself wrote them. It's a pity that even some Jews, who are supposed to enjoy a priviledged mind claim that God is personally responsible for the Scriptures writen in the language of man.

Oh, so you don't think the Tanakh describes G-d, or at least not accurately?

 

[Vendetta]

Uh, o.k. fascinating. Now, back to the Bible that permits people to buy other people as property and make them work against their will, and beat them, as long as they don't damage a tooth or put out an eye. What do you think of the morality of that?

Well of course me living in modern times of course I will view racism from the biblical account with criticism. This draws back my criticism of God's knowledge. If God's knowledge of past, present, and future events are sequential, why after or before the enslavement of Jews did God not prohibit slavery in the first place? (Shrug) who knows....

 

[Autodidact]

As I have told you in the post above, God never had anything to do with slavery. These were instructions given by human ledgislators who, to enhance them with the Divine approval, would metaphorically attribute them to God, so as to enhance the feeling that they had been ordained by higher authority. We cannot be that literal with the Scriptures as if God Himself wrote them. It's a pity that even some Jews, who are supposed to enjoy a priviledged mind claim that God is personally responsible for the Scriptures writen in the language of man.

Well of course me living in modern times of course I will view racism from the biblical account with criticism. This draws back my criticism of God's knowledge. If God's knowledge of past, present, and future events are sequential, why after or before the enslavement of Jews did God not prohibit slavery in the first place? (Shrug) who knows....

Maybe because He doesn't exist?

 

[Nooj]

Yes, but why was it wrong? Was it wrong because it was called slavery or because of how real human beings were being treated. That is the important thing to remember when we try to set broad-based titles of Right or Wrong on things. Good and evil come from individual actions, not institutions.

Please take a moment to reflect on what you're doing right now. You are saying that slavery is not wrong. Are you sure you want to do this?

To mistreat another person is wrong, but to make social and legal structures available through which someone could be bound to another is not necissarily wrong.

Okay, leaving aside the thorny issue of whether someone being bound to another person is intrinsically wrong. You find the fault in mistreating another person, not owning another person.

You say that good and evil don't come from institutions. But if the insitution of slavery is built from the ground up so that it rewards and encourages the mistreatment of others, isn't that insitutition wrong?

If Biblical slavery is not wrong because slavery is not wrong, then Southern slavery is not wrong either, not at its core anyway.

 

[Vendetta]

Maybe because He doesn't exist?

No maybe God is so distant that miracles are interpreted as human imagination

 

[BruceDLimber]

Some scholars [that] I read took Bahai'ism as a heterodoxical form of Islam

That was an early misconception, yes; but since then even Islamic courts have rendered decisions stating specifically that the Baha'i Faith is NOT a part of Islam!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[waitasec]

That was an early misconception, yes; but since then even Islamic courts have rendered decisions stating specifically that the Baha'i Faith is NOT a part of Islam!

Peace,

Bruce

hence heterodoxical

 

[Zardoz]

God had nothing to do with slavery. This was a thing of man and not of God. Then, why are you so uptight with slavery? Hasn't slavery been abolished even before you were born? Maybe your forefathers were slave owners. I wonder why I smell the dirty being dug for the venial sins of Israel commited thousands of years ago.

Hey, Ben, it's just something else for Jew bashing, don't ya know? Almost Straw Man.
Never mind that these laws were from an age where slavery was the norm, everywhere. I guess in the far future, the same type of people will demand to know why G-d didn't forbid the use of fossil fuel today. Since it's also evil, as the release of this geo stored carbon is destroying the ecosystem. Never mind that even if somehow G-d commanded this, hardly anyone would be willing to obey? Or able?

 

[Breathe]

How about you atheists, Hindus, Buddhists. Is slavery right or wrong?

I'm Hindu, Buddhist and Sikh, I guess, since I combine all three of them. Slavery is not right in any way and I am totally against slavery in any way.

I know that the caste system will eventually be brought up, to so save time: the caste system is not within Hinduism itself, nor do I commend the way the Shudras or Dalits have been oppressed and almost put into a form of slavery. That, however, is not Hinduism, but a corruption of an idea that people should live according to their spiritual duties.

The caste system many in the West know is "jati". Jati means "birth", and it's something like "birth caste". This idea does not exist within Hindu philosophy. One was not born into a caste, one could move into it.

I've enclosed some verses from scripture to show that in days gone by, they weren't like this:

कारुरहं ततो भिषगुपलप्रक्षिणी नना |
kārurahaṃ tato bhiṣaghupalaprakṣiṇī nanā |

Translated: I am a bard, my father is a physician, my mother's job is to grind the corn.

- Rig Veda, Book 9, Hymn 112, Verse 3.

Also, there is discrimination by the caste system even within other religious communities: Muslims, Christians, and even Sikhs will discriminate against other people who follow the same religion as them but are of a "lower caste". This is something that needs to die out.

The actual idea of caste comes from "varna". The "varna" system was simply that people should do different jobs according to their temperaments: someone who wants to focus their life to protecting others, for example, would not get satisfaction out of life working with the land, and someone who wants to spend their time doing physical jobs and helping others wouldn't want to be a farmer or a priest. The varna system was dynamic, one could move from varna to varna, and the followers were all equal.

"Brahmanas, kshatriyas, vaishyas and shudras are distinguished by the qualities born of their own natures in accordance with the material modes, O chastiser of the enemy."
"Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership are the natural qualities of work for the kshatriyas."
"Farming, cow protection and business are the natural work for the vaishyas, and for the shudras there is labor and service to others."
There was no discrimination behind the caste system to begin with as far as I am aware.
- Bhagavad Gita, 18:41-44

There have also been many Hindu reform movements who have opposed any kind of caste discrimination. It is become less common for caste discrimination, thankfully.There have been many Hindu reform movements working hard to get the jati system to go away, so it's not like the oh so noble and civilized West is the first to try to do something about it. People such as Mahavira, Shakyamuni Buddha, Basavanna, Vivekananda, Aurobindo, Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Sivananda, Shirdi Sai Baba, Paramahansa Yogananda, Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, Gandhi, Dayananda and many others have all opposed the jati system and its discrimination.

However, old habits die hard. It's less known in the cities, but in the villages it's slightly more um, shall we say, commonplace? Hopefully soon, though, hopefully soon.

Does that answer any questions on this?

 

[openyourmind]

Speaking as a black man whose grand father was born after his mother was raped by a slave owner, and a man of Christian faith I say slavery is right. We are all slave of the world today, though I don't agree with the unethical abuse of a slave. My family heritage was taken out of Africa and brought to America and given a chance at a better life. It was through this strife that my family has become hard working and honest. Even today I wake every morning and work hard to provide for my family just as those before me did. If not for the decision to take slaves my family would still be suffering of famine, disease and poverty. Slavery with out abuse is no different than working a nine to five with out the stress of worrying how to pay the bills. I honestly say thank you to the one that brought my family out of africa and gave us a chance!

 

[BruceDLimber]

hence heterodoxical

No, the Baha'i Faith is fully independant and stands on its own merit!

It isn't dependant on Islam or anything else.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Koldo]

They could have given your family a "chance" without turning them into slaves.
What if you were a slave nowadays? Would you be thankfull too?

 

[openyourmind]

They could have given your family a "chance" without turning them into slaves.
What if you were a slave nowadays? Would you be thankfull too?

Yes I would be thankful today. You should look into the history of slavery. Though there were many that we owned by abusive "masters" many lived a good life. The woke every morning with the sun and work a good days work. The were feed morning noon and night. Every eveing would sit with there family and friends with no worry about the world. I would gladly accept that life. My great grand parents had no complaints so why should I?

 

[Vendetta]

I am the devil's advocate and waiting for someone to prove against my position on why I think slavery is right.

 

[Ubjon]

For those heretics out there (I'm getting the pitchforks you've been warned!) the Bible is quite clear on the matter

Slavery in the Bible

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

Remember Jesus loves you!

 

[TJ73]

Yes I would be thankful today. You should look into the history of slavery. Though there were many that we owned by abusive "masters" many lived a good life. The woke every morning with the sun and work a good days work. The were feed morning noon and night. Every eveing would sit with there family and friends with no worry about the world. I would gladly accept that life. My great grand parents had no complaints so why should I?

And who is to say Africa would not have an altogether different history has the slave trade not been established. There were many great and successful civilization in African history.
They lived a good life compared to what? Certainly not compared to the slave holders. What history is much based upon is the contributions of members of society. Slaves are exempt from any credit and were exempt from making notable contributions in politics and public policy.
Considering the suffering after the abolishment of slavery, and the the continued displacement of African Americans, was it still worth it.
As a mother, just imagining someone taking my child from me or having a man father my child only to abuse him/her makes it wrong if only for that.

 

[Vendetta]

Jesus used to be a plantation owner man come on!

 

[Koldo]

Yes I would be thankful today. You should look into the history of slavery. Though there were many that we owned by abusive "masters" many lived a good life. The woke every morning with the sun and work a good days work. The were feed morning noon and night. Every eveing would sit with there family and friends with no worry about the world. I would gladly accept that life. My great grand parents had no complaints so why should I?

You can't be serious. If you were a slave you wouldn't be able to buy anything to yourself. Do you like your tv, your cellphone, your computer, your bed? You would have to accept whatever your "owner" gave you, IF he gave you anything AT ALL. Did you disobey the "owner's" orders? You are gonna get a good beating for it. How about getting your daughter or sister raped because the "owner" wanted so? You don't know what you are talking about. You really don't.