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Question for Jews, Christians and Muslims

Autodidact

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
AnonAmos said:
Yes, but why was it wrong? Was it wrong because it was called slavery or because of how real human beings were being treated. That is the important thing to remember when we try to set broad-based titles of Right or Wrong on things. Good and evil come from individual actions, not institutions.
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It was wrong because people are not property. duh. Why is this so hard for you?

You don't think institutions can be right or wrong?

So you wouldn't condemn slavery itself, just especially cruel slave-owners?
 
Autodidact

Autodidact

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AnonAmos said:
Hypothetical: You are passing by a southern slave auction and you see a young boy being sold for much less money than you had on you. You buy the boy to keep him from the mistreatment he would surely find in the hands of another. You keep the boy on your property to keep him from being captured as a runnaway and even allow him to help with the chores as long as you feel sure he realizes that he doesn't have to. You educate him and teach him all that you know until he was able to buy his own freedom as a known member of the community instead of setting him "free" as a boy only to be re-captured(which did happen). Conclusion: Yes, the fact that such measures had to be taken was wrong, but that does not mean that the choice to purchase the boy was wrong. Actions, and motives. Not lables
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As soon as you buy him, you have the right to free him. He wouldn't be a runaway, but a freeman. If you bought him and put him to work picking cotton, then sold him to someone else, it would be wrong. If you bought him and set him free, it would not. Again: easy question, for a non-Christian.
 
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AnonAmos

Member
1: If you are becoming impatient perhaps you should take a break. Not ment as an insult, just saying that that's what I do when I get impatient
2: I have been looking in my Strong's and can't find the statement you refered to where God said"you may have slaves." Could you help me by citing it so I can look it up and be better suited to answer your questions?
 
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AnonAmos

Member
As soon as you buy him, you have the right to free him. He wouldn't be a runaway, but a freeman.
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Free slaves who were found on their own( especially the defensless) were often captured and resold into slavery as "runaway slaves." Just because their captors could not prove they were runaways didn't matter.
 
M

MathewJames

mj
Autodidact said:
Uh, o.k. Now, back to the subject at hand: chattel slavery. You were telling us how it's not necessarily wrong. Tell us more about that. How is it that it's not necessarily wrong for a person to buy another person and use them as a slave for life? Explain it to us.
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Not sure what you really mean by "chattel".
Do you mean it like owning cattle or putting people in chains that clatter?
 
Autodidact

Autodidact

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AnonAmos said:
Hypothetical: You are passing by a southern slave auction and you see a young boy being sold for much less money than you had on you. You buy the boy to keep him from the mistreatment he would surely find in the hands of another. You keep the boy on your property to keep him from being captured as a runnaway and even allow him to help with the chores as long as you feel sure he realizes that he doesn't have to. You educate him and teach him all that you know until he was able to buy his own freedom as a known member of the community instead of setting him "free" as a boy only to be re-captured(which did happen). Conclusion: Yes, the fact that such measures had to be taken was wrong, but that does not mean that the choice to purchase the boy was wrong. Actions, and motives. Not lables
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AnonAmos said:
1: If you are becoming impatient perhaps you should take a break.
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Or maybe people could follow along?
Not ment as an insult, just saying that that's what I do when I get impatient
2: I have been looking in my Strong's and can't find the statement you refered to where God said"you may have slaves." Could you help me by citing it so I can look it up and be better suited to answer your questions?
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Leviticus 25:44-46


44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
 
Autodidact

Autodidact

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MathewJames said:
Not sure what you really mean by "chattel".
Do you mean it like owning cattle or putting people in chains that clatter?
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Chattel is an old-fashioned legal term meaning personal property, as opposed to real estate. So chattel slavery means that one person becomes the personal property of another.
 
Autodidact

Autodidact

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AnonAmos said:
Free slaves who were found on their own( especially the defensless) were often captured and resold into slavery as "runaway slaves." Just because their captors could not prove they were runaways didn't matter.
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So you're positing a bizarre hypo in which a child has been captured by someone else, not you, and is being sold to someone else, not you, and cannot be freed for some reason, but must live as a slave, so it's moral for you to buy her, because you would be nicer to her than some other mean master? That's the hypo you want us to consider?

Meanwhile, how about just making slavery illegal? Isn't that a better way to deal with the situation? That's what secular authorities have done. Why is it that God has to persist in perpetuating this immoral institution?
 
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AnonAmos

Member
So you're positing a bizarre hypo in which a child has been captured by someone else, not you, and is being sold to someone else, not you, and cannot be freed for some reason, but must live as a slave, so it's moral for you to buy her, because you would be nicer to her than some other mean master? That's the hypo you want us to consider?
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The hypo was meant to show that the actions you pointed out: capturing, selling, etc. is what makes slavery wrong. If you want it spelled out here you go: S...L...A...V...E...R...Y I....S W....R...O...N...G. I was taking it for granted that everyone on this forum believed that. I was simply trying to state WHY it's wrong. You are arguing with yourself if you are trying to win that arguement. Thank you for the reference. Now give me a minute and let me look it up, OK, or would you rather just rant on about out how all us believers are just a bunch of hatefull ingrates. If that's the case I would appreciate you doing it on a different forum. This one is for adults to have calm discussions.
 
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AnonAmos

Member
Yes, God did say that in Lev. It also says in Joshua and elswhere that the Hebrews were to massacre certain people. Does that mean that it is O.K for me to go out and buy someone or to go on a murder spree? No, and both for the same reason. God knows the inmost heart. If there are a people that God said should be killed, then it was because he had already been working on their hearts, but He who knows the hearts of men judged them to be too far gone. Thus they could be killed or owned. The same reason that made what happened in the past okay is the same reason murder and slavery are wrong now. Only God knows the heart. We cannot judge who deserves death or punishment. God no longer speaks to us in the way he spoke to the OT prophets. We are on our own, and so have only his word(as it applies to the present) and our own judgements on which to relly. And by both I can say slavery is wrong.
 
Autodidact

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
AnonAmos said:
The hypo was meant to show that the actions you pointed out: capturing, selling, etc. is what makes slavery wrong. If you want it spelled out here you go: S...L...A...V...E...R...Y I....S W....R...O...N...G. I was taking it for granted that everyone on this forum believed that. I was simply trying to state WHY it's wrong. You are arguing with yourself if you are trying to win that arguement. Thank you for the reference. Now give me a minute and let me look it up, OK, or would you rather just rant on about out how all us believers are just a bunch of hatefull ingrates. If that's the case I would appreciate you doing it on a different forum. This one is for adults to have calm discussions.
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Well, apparently at least Matthew James thinks it's "not necessarily wrong."

O.K., so for whatever you think so, you think it's wrong. Great. Now my question is, how do you deal with or account for worshiping a God who thinks it's fine? How can a God who authorizes evil be good? And how can you derive morality from a God who authorizes evil?
 
Autodidact

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
AnonAmos said:
Yes, God did say that in Lev. It also says in Joshua and elswhere that the Hebrews were to massacre certain people.
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Yes, slavery is just one of the many evil things your God commands.
Does that mean that it is O.K for me to go out and buy someone or to go on a murder spree? No, and both for the same reason.
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Because you have a moral sense independent of your religious belief.
God knows the inmost heart. If there are a people that God said should be killed, then it was because he had already been working on their hearts, but He who knows the hearts of men judged them to be too far gone. Thus they could be killed or owned.
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Let me get this. Your new argument is that God thinks all non-Hebrews are so evil that it's morally justified to kill or own them? Seriously? That's your moral position? Because remember, you may slaves from among foreigners and their descendants.
The same reason that made what happened in the past okay is the same reason murder and slavery are wrong now.
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It was right then but wrong now? Is slavery ever right?
Only God knows the heart. We cannot judge who deserves death or punishment.
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It has nothing to do with punishment. God allows you to own any foreigner as a slave. God also commands you to kill anyone who lives in the land He gave you, including babies. Are you arguing that the babies were evil and deserved capital punishment? Is killing a baby ever morally justified?
God no longer speaks to us in the way he spoke to the OT prophets.
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Maybe because we've made moral progress?
We are on our own, and so have only his word(as it applies to the present) and our own judgements on which to relly. And by both I can say slavery is wrong.
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If God's words say it's right, how can you construe them to mean it's wrong? Does all of the Bible mean the exact opposite of what it says, or only the parts you don't like?
 
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