Question for the Evangelical Community

[Kenny]

But it was for a public setting as baptism involved more than just the forgiveness of sins but also was a gateway into the church, and we well know that this is how the early church regarded it. Here's an example:

The first recorded liturgy of baptism, written down by Saint Hippolytus of Rome (170–235) in his Apostolic Tradition, required men, women and children to remove all clothing, including all foreign objects such as jewellery and hair fastenings.

1. At the hour in which the cock crows, they shall first pray over the water.
2. When they come to the water, the water shall be pure and flowing, that is, the water of a spring or a flowing body of water.
3. Then they shall take off all their clothes.
4. The children shall be baptized first. All of the children who can answer for themselves, let them answer. If there are any children who cannot answer for themselves, let their parents answer for them, or someone else from their family.
5. After this, the men will be baptized. Finally, the women, after they have unbound their hair, and removed their jewelry. No one shall take any foreign object with themselves down into the water. -- Baptism - Wikipedia

If you check with your denomination, my guess is that no one is likely to become a full member of your church unless their either are baptized in the church or produce a document of baptism from another church. I know this was the case with the fundamentalist Protestant church I grew up in as well as my wife's Catholic church.

Knowing how humanity has the tendencies to ritualize much more that what was required, it would appear that Hippolytus of Rome had already started the process of requiring more than was suggested in the Gospels and the book of Acts.

 

[e.r.m.]

¿Por qué el uso de la lengua española, por lo que sería cifrado para que el resto de los estadounidenses no saben? De todos modos, los filipinos no son personas de habla española, excepto por unos pocos en Zamboanga llamado Chabacanos. Hablamos el tagalo y otros siete dialectos.

View attachment 18057
Unos pocos filipinos todavía saben español porque España ha colonizado las Filipinas durante 333 años hasta que los estadounidenses vinieron y ocuparon el país en 1898-1946. Durante la ocupación americana, dejamos de usar la lengua española como la Educación Americana influyó en nuestro pensamiento.
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La Iglesia de Cristo de la que soy miembro, no nos consideramos "ultra conservadores". Lo que está en la Biblia, lo seguimos y lo que no está en la Biblia, lo rechazamos. Todo lo que hacemos y creemos en se encuentra en la Biblia.

No veo a la iglesia como una de las religiones ultraconservadoras, pero es una sorpresa que los bautistas, los episcopales y los católicos tradicionales lo hicieron en la lista.

The 10 Most Dangerous Religious Right Organizations

Conservative Christianity - Wikipedia

No es porque quise a aislar los que no hablan espanol. Yo solo vi a su apellido y pense que eras un hispano como yo y quise probar por un poco en espanol. No adivine que fueras Filipino. Pero entiendo que los Filipinos llevan much is nombres Espanoles you later historia de la ocupacion Espanola. Mi esposa es Filipina. Y entiendo que la Iglesia de Cristo tambien es un poco diferente de la de aqui. Used vive en las Philipinas? Podemos regresar al ingles. No quiero ofender a nadie aqui.

 

[Kenny]

The 10 Most Dangerous Religious Right Organizations

El problema de esta lista es que proviene de una organización que es ultra liberal. No es una lista de confianza.

Yo no lo llamaría peligrosa, mas bien estas organizaciones son los que protejan nuestras libertades.

 

[MJFlores]

How come even the Star Wars prequel trilogy is better than most biblical movies?

Your God may love making it nearly impossible to show up, but mine would widen the door and install ramps.

What does a quick bath actually do? What is the objective mechanism that dihydrogen oxide uses to cleanse souls?

But I consider the moral that we should be focused only on our own reward in heaven is selfish. Now what?

Ask questions but it's mandatory to end up agreeing with a specific denomination?

Thomas' reaction SHOULD have been: if you are Jesus, why are there just the most remembered injuries and not the fact that you were tortured so much you should look like human hamburger? It's only been 3 days, after all. Skin excoriation from urinary incontinence doesn't usually heal that fast ...

Just watched NOAH at YouTube the other night and it was unbiblical, adulterated version of the story and the director is an atheist. That is why Hollywood bible movies are boring and nauseating.

Atheist ‘Noah’ director brags film is least biblical Bible movie ever

It is like eating food from a prison cook.

Baptism isn't a quick bath. It is God's righteousness to be part of the body of Christ, which is his church - for people to have a new life.

Romans 6:4
We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Focusing on heaven is prudent and wise, focusing on the pleasures that this world gives, now that is selfish.

1 Peter 1:3-5

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

Ask questions but it's mandatory to end up agreeing with a specific denomination?

Well, if you don't agree then don't join the specific denomination - it is as simple as that. Faith is something that people have and not injected by others. Faith is shown by works also.

James 2:17
In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

Faith without knowing if it is in the Bible is to me a zombie faith - fanaticism so to speak. False faith is faith twice dead.

Jude 1:12
These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead.

 

[MJFlores]

No es porque quise a aislar los que no hablan espanol. Yo solo vi a su apellido y pense que eras un hispano como yo y quise probar por un poco en espanol. No adivine que fueras Filipino. Pero entiendo que los Filipinos llevan much is nombres Espanoles you later historia de la ocupacion Espanola. Mi esposa es Filipina. Y entiendo que la Iglesia de Cristo tambien es un poco diferente de la de aqui. Used vive en las Philipinas? Podemos regresar al ingles. No quiero ofender a nadie aqui.

La mayoría de los filipinos tienen nombres españoles. El español no es mi fuerte. Nos enseñaron español en el College, pero eso fue en los años 80. Podría desarrollar un tumor cerebral escribiendo en español, pero el primer signo es el sangrado de la nariz. Deberíamos volver en inglés.

It is worship day today!

 

[e.r.m.]

El problema de esta lista es que proviene de una organización que es ultra liberal. No es una lista de confianza.

Yo no lo llamaría peligrosa, mas bien estas organizaciones son los que protejan nuestras libertades.

Gracias por esta clarificacion. Es bueno conocer a otros hispano-hablantes aqui. Quisas podemos comenzar un topico solo en espanol. Me encantaria hacer eso si se permite. Pero como esta conversacion ya comenzo en ingles, debemos regresar al ingles.

 

[e.r.m.]

La mayoría de los filipinos tienen nombres españoles. El español no es mi fuerte. Nos enseñaron español en el College, pero eso fue en los años 80. Podría desarrollar un tumor cerebral escribiendo en español, pero el primer signo es el sangrado de la nariz. Deberíamos volver en inglés.

It is worship day today!
View attachment 18064

Lol, I agree. The auto correct is a pain to keep fixing. Thank you for the exchange though. Your spanish is very good. Salamat po!

Do you belong to Iglesia Ni Cristo?

 

[Kenny]

Gracias por esta clarificacion. Es bueno conocer a otros hispano-hablantes aqui. Quisas podemos comenzar un topico solo en espanol. Me encantaria hacer eso si se permite. Pero como esta conversacion ya comenzo en ingles, debemos regresar al ingles.

LOL The only problem is that when I go to the Spanish keyboard, I have no idea where the exclamation points, quotes et al are at.!

 

[e.r.m.]

LOL The only problem is that when I go to the Spanish keyboard, I have no idea where the exclamation points, quotes et al are at.!

Lol, yeah it's different, and you got those upside down question marks.

 

[MJFlores]

Completely different baptism

Matthew 3: 11

What you are promoting is magicalism

This is a different baptism

Baptizing an infant this way is child abuse.

 

[Desert Snake]

Baptism doesn't ensure salvation regardless of method.

 

[Desert Snake]

Jesus is the actual baptizer, this is clear, from Scripture.

 

[MJFlores]

Lol, I agree. The auto correct is a pain to keep fixing. Thank you for the exchange though. Your spanish is very good. Salamat po!

Do you belong to Iglesia Ni Cristo?

Since 2010.

Used to be a Catholic Atheist or maybe a Catholic Gnostic. There are many signs that have happened that I could no longer ignore - signs which tells about the second advent of Christ.

Matthew 24:3-14

As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.

You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.

“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

 

[MJFlores]

Baptism doesn't ensure salvation regardless of method.

Jesus is the actual baptizer, this is clear, from Scripture.

Baptism in the body of Christ, which is his church is the first step among many steps.

It is the start of the race.

1 Corinthians 9:24
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.

 

[MJFlores]

El problema de esta lista es que proviene de una organización que es ultra liberal. No es una lista de confianza.

Yo no lo llamaría peligrosa, mas bien estas organizaciones son los que protejan nuestras libertades.

 

[omega2xx]

But that's the difference between about and in. The "goats" believed about Jesus but not in Jesus, and that should be abundantly clear based on the context of the parable.

The context does not include that they knew about Jesus. They may have but that is only an opinion. IMO verse 44 confirms that they did not know about Him.

 

[metis]

Knowing how humanity has the tendencies to ritualize much more that what was required, it would appear that Hippolytus of Rome had already started the process of requiring more than was suggested in the Gospels and the book of Acts.

No doubt, but my point is that the practice of baptism was not viewed solely as a forgiveness of sins but also had communal implications both in its administration and also in how it was viewed.

For example, in the mikvah, one essentially "baptized" one's self for the forgiveness of sins, but that procedure was not duplicated in the early church as it always was done as a communal ritual, even if it involved only one witness. Even Jesus' baptism was communal.

In your church, does one have to be baptized in order to be considered a full adult member? In both the Protestant church I grew up in and my wife's Catholic church, one did have to be baptized to be considered as such.

 

[Kenny]

No doubt, but my point is that the practice of baptism was not viewed solely as a forgiveness of sins but also had communal implications both in its administration and also in how it was viewed.

For example, in the mikvah, one essentially "baptized" one's self for the forgiveness of sins, but that procedure was not duplicated in the early church as it always was done as a communal ritual, even if it involved only one witness. Even Jesus' baptism was communal.

In your church, does one have to be baptized in order to be considered a full adult member? In both the Protestant church I grew up in and my wife's Catholic church, one did have to be baptized to be considered as such.

It varies, but there is some truth to what you say.

I guess it would depend as what I consider an "adult member". Looking at it spiritually, I would say you would have to be baptized for if you are a spiritual adult, for a mature person would have fulfill that act.

Probably I would hold to the standard that an adult can be a teenage having understood the basic foundations and doctrines. ROFL...I certainly have seen adults act like children as I have seen teenagers (which I think is a modern phenomenon that has hurt them in becoming adults) act mature to the point of teaching and leading other people and would call them adult members.

We really don't have an "adult member" designation. A member is simply one who has confessed Jesus as Lord as we view that The Church is just one church with many parts.

Then we have the following:

1. Baby Christians
2. Carnal Christians
3. Leader Servants (people who serve)
4. Servant Leaders (people who serve and lead others)

As far as for the forgiveness of sins, we are of those who believe water baptism is an act that we perform but is not necessary for the forgiveness of sins. (Understanding that there are those who believe it is necessary). For us, it is the blood of The Lamb that is the agent for forgiveness of sins.

 

[metis]

A member is simply one who has confessed Jesus as Lord as we view that The Church is just one church with many parts.

What if an individual who is applying to come into your community says (s)he believes but refuses to be baptized?

 

[Kenny]

What if an individual who is applying to come into your community says (s)he believes but refuses to be baptized?

LOL, that hasn't happened in the last 26 years... but let's take the spirit of the question into a more practical application.

Someone comes in and isn't baptized yet and isn't sure about it. We just love on them and ask them why. Usually there is a thinking issue. In the meantime, they can serve people and be part of the community.

Even more practical. Two people came in and they are living together... what do we do. We just love on them and let them serve in a capacity that is not of a leadership position. Their hearts were right and a year later they are married and baptized.

I would say, like children, each has to be handled differently. It's the heart that is at issue and we want to heal the heart and not damage it. I'll be the first to say we don't always do it perfectly, but we aways have a love motivation.