Question for the Evangelical Community

[Desert Snake]

Not to in any way argue with you since I'm also a non-Christian, but could you explain the above?

I don't think baptism, ensures salvation, but i do think it is part of what makes a person a christian.

 

[metis]

I don't think baptism, ensures salvation, but i do think it is part of what makes a person a christian.

Got it-- thanks.

 

[e.r.m.]

I don't think baptism, ensures salvation, but i do think it is part of what makes a person a christian.

Agreed.

 

[e.r.m.]

What I could understand are what is written in the bible.

Matthew 18:3
And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Suddenly exegesis left the building.

I'm not sure if exegesis was ever there. So far you've operated on the principal of esigesis.

Ephesians 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

Again, this does not address whether they got into the church individually or collectively.

What is the truth? Christ loved his church - in fact he gave himself for his church - not to the world, no but to his church.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

I'm sure Jesus was in agreement.

John 17:6, 9, 15
“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.

And so he did.

I believe this is how God will save people through the Lord Jesus Christ, it is through the Church, headed by Christ.

Do you believe that absolutely nobody has yet been saved? That savation is exclusivey in the future tense?

You're sounding more Catholic than Church of Christ. You're espousing their beliefs.

 

[e.r.m.]

Water baptism was both the recognition of a repentant mind but also a public initiation into the church. Also, I never said nor implied that somehow that by itself it "saved" anyone. However, it is mandated, which not only shows up in scripture but also was a necessary practice of the early church.

My rule-of-thumb when attempting to interpret what a Biblical narrative may actually mean is assisted by observing what subsequently happened afterwards, and we know from the writings from the early 2nd century church how they viewed baptism, especially since it was a variation of the mikvah that had been practiced in Judaism long before Jesus was even born. With "the Way", it obviously took on some additional meanings.

I agree with everything else.
I take exception with Water baptism was both the recognition of a repentant mind but also a "public" initiation into the church.

Maybe John's baptism was a recognition of a repentant mind but I never read that about baptism in water in Jesus's name. They were both instead considered as parts of being saved. I'm not saying the baptism wouldn't inadvertently recognize a repented mind.

It was initiation into the church, but I never read that it mattered if it was public or not. I believe the jailor and his family got baptized by themselves. And after Saul got baptized, the people were taken aback that he was now preaching about Jesus, something that wouldn't have happened if he had made his baptism a public spectacle. Baptisms in Jesus's name may have been made public in many cases, but not because it was a part of getting baptized or expected. A private baptism would fulfill the purpose of being baptized in Jesus's name as much as a public baptism.

 

[omega2xx]

Water baptism was both the recognition of a repentant mind but also a public initiation into the church. Also, I never said nor implied that somehow that by itself it "saved" anyone. However, it is mandated, which not only shows up in scripture but also was a necessary practice of the early church.

It is mandated but it doe snot save. It was a practice of the early church and still is today, but the Bible does not make it necessary for salvation.

My rule-of-thumb when attempting to interpret what a Biblical narrative may actually mean is assisted by observing what subsequently happened afterwards, and we know from the writings from the early 2nd century church how they viewed baptism, especially since it was a variation of the mikvah that had been practiced in Judaism long before Jesus was even born. With "the Way", it obviously took on some additional meanings.

My rule of thumb is to believe what the Bible says. Baptism has nothing to do with good works. Some denomination teach it is necessary to do good works to go to heaven. The Bible teaches "not of works;" grace alone. Good works must be done from a love of God, not from a love of man.

Do you think one of those thieves on the cross with Jesus wen to to heaven? Was he water baptized? What good works did he do?

 

[e.r.m.]

Can you tell to me how much your church leadership teaches or had taught about salvation? And can you explain to me why no one gets, that water baptism in Jesus's name for forgiveness of sins/salvation was not given until after the thief's lifetime? Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38.

Thank you.

 

[omega2xx]

Can you tell to me how much your church leadership teaches or had taught about salvation? And can you explain to me why no one gets, that water baptism in Jesus's name for forgiveness of sins/salvation was not given until after the thief's lifetime? Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38.

Thank you.

If you will answer my questions about the thief on the cross, I will gladly answer yours.

 

[metis]

My rule of thumb is to believe what the Bible says. Baptism has nothing to do with good works. Some denomination teach it is necessary to do good works to go to heaven. The Bible teaches "not of works;" grace alone. Good works must be done from a love of God, not from a love of man.

Do you think one of those thieves on the cross with Jesus wen to to heaven? Was he water baptized? What good works did he do?

I think it's best if you reread the Sermon On the Mount and also the Parable of the Sheep & Goats in Matthew 25 if you think for one minute that good works are not essential for salvation-- at least in most circumstances.

Your approach I call "rocking-chair religion"-- just sit around having nice p.c. beliefs with no action necessary. That's a completely bogus approach as Jesus' teachings was a call to both faith and action.

As far as the thieves are concerned, the fact that they were not in a position to do "good works" obviously couldn't be held against them.

Finally, Paul said "there's faith, hope, and love, and the greatest of these is ___".? Do you know what "agape" means? Are you aware of the implications of "agape"? Do you think it's just about believing in p.c. dogmas? How about what James says about good works?

So, I guess the question is whether you actually believe in Jesus as the sheep did, or only about Jesus as the goats did? I hope it's the former, but that means that one needs to get off their rocking-chair made of p.c. beliefs and get to work doing what Jesus and apostles taught, and the Sermon On the Mount and the Parable of the Sheep & Goats can help set that direction.

 

[metis]

It was initiation into the church, but I never read that it mattered if it was public or not.

A private baptism would fulfill the purpose of being baptized in Jesus's name as much as a public baptism.

One cannot baptize themselves, so it is public in that way and in other ways because, in order to be accepted in the early church, one had to be at some point baptized and witnessed by someone. If going public wasn't necessary, one should be able to baptize themselves, but I know of no account of it being done or allowed to be done that manner.

There's more, but I gotta go 'til tomorrow. Take care.

 

[omega2xx]

I think it's best if you reread the Sermon On the Mount and also the Parable of the Sheep & Goats in Matthew 25 if you think for one minute that good works are not essential for salvation-- at least in most circumstances.

The Sermon on the mount does not mention salvation, and in the dividing the sheep and goats, it was the saved who were doing the good works. Not to be saved, but because they were saved and they were being obedience to what God has told His children to do.

I suggest you read Eph 2:8-9, Gal 2:16, Jn 3:16 and Jn 5:24 and Jn 6:28-29. Then go back to Genesis and find our how Abram became righteous.

Your approach I call "rocking-chair religion"-- just sit around having nice p.c. beliefs with no action necessary. That's a completely bogus approach as Jesus' teachings was a call to both faith and action.

Only by those who are ignorant of the means of salvation. Your religion is called legalism, It was the theology of the Pharisees and was strongly condemned as the means of salvation by Jesus and by Paul.

As far as the thieves are concerned, the fact that they were not in a position to do "good works" obviously couldn't be held against them.

DUUH! They were in a position before the were put on the cross.

Finally, Paul said "there's faith, hope, and love, and the greatest of these is ___".? Do you know what "agape" means? Are you aware of the implications of "agape"? Do you think it's just about believing in p.c. dogmas? How about what James says about good works?

Agape love has nothing to do with salvation. Man is incapable of agape love on a continuing basis. Agape love describes God's love towards us.

Let me give you a simple formula: No good works, no salvation. Salvation results in good works. James says it very clearly---I will show you my faith by my works---faith without works is dead---if someone says he has faith but he has not works,can that faith save him? I think it was Luther that said. faith works."

So, I guess the question is whether you actually believe in Jesus as the sheep did, or only about Jesus as the goats did? I hope it's the former, but that means that one needs to get off their rocking-chair made of p.c. beliefs and get to work doing what Jesus and apostles taught, and the Sermon On the Mount and the Parable of the Sheep & Goats can help set that direction.

A good example of liberal theology. The righteous, the sheep, had been doing the good works, The goats, were not doing it because they did not believe in Jesus.

 

[e.r.m.]

If you will answer my questions about the thief on the cross, I will gladly answer yours.

Do you think one of those thieves on the cross with Jesus wen to to heaven?

Yes.

Was he water baptized? What good works did he do?

No and none. But why would he since baptism in water in Jesus's name wasn't given until after the thief's lifetime?

Now answer mine.

 

[e.r.m.]

One cannot baptize themselves, so it is public in that way and in other ways because, in order to be accepted in the early church, one had to be at some point baptized and witnessed by someone. If going public wasn't necessary, one should be able to baptize themselves, but I know of no account of it being done or allowed to be done that manner.

There's more, but I gotta go 'til tomorrow. Take care.

Thank you. I understand. Until next time.

The requirement then is for a baptizer, not for a public setting. It would be public (with the baptizer there) only by default.

 

[MJFlores]

I'm not sure if exegesis was ever there. So far you've operated on the principal of esigesis.

Again, this does not address whether they got into the church individually or collectively.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

I'm sure Jesus was in agreement.

And so he did.

Do you believe that absolutely nobody has yet been saved? That savation is exclusivey in the future tense?

You're sounding more Catholic than Church of Christ. You're espousing their beliefs.

If you could read these passages in the bible, then it is there - we can't do anything about it. If it is in the bible, then it must be true, isn't it?

Now people would read John 3:16 as if it is the only verse in the bible but of course you know very well there are other verses besides that. Even that very verse, people are lost in understanding. Let me show you:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Who loved the world?
God so loved the world.

How did God show he loved the world?
He gave his one and only Son. [Hence God is the giver, the Son is the given. God is different from the Son.]

What is the result of believing the Son?
Whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

People should believe in the Lord Jesus Christ otherwise people would not have eternal life - isn't that so? Now what are one of the things the Lord Jesus said, that we should believe - so we can have eternal life?

John 10:9
I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.

Is it really true? How true is the statement that the Lord Jesus is the gate?

John 10:7
Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep.

Sometimes people couldn't believe their ears and eyes that the Lord Jesus really have to repeat it again and with a strong declaration - VERY TRULY. Are these literal sheep and how did Jesus address "his sheep"?

Luke 12:32
“Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom.

So the Lord Jesus said whoever enters through me will be saved. Now where is this little flock?

Is the church, the flock - people who believe in the Lord Jesus? Yes.

Did Christ establish a church? Yes - Matthew 16:18

Is Christ the head of his church (his body)? Yes - Colossians 1:18
Did Christ love his church? Yes - Ephesians 5:25
Will Christ save his church (his body)? Yes - Ephesians 5:23

How important is the Church of Christ? It is important because the Lord Jesus purchased the church with his blood.

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

How about those outside the Church of Christ, were they purchased with his blood? No. It is the Church of Christ which was purchased by his blood. How about the rest of mankind who are not the Church of Christ?

Hebrews 9:22
In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

 

[e.r.m.]

If you could read these passages in the bible, then it is there - we can't do anything about it. If it is in the bible, then it must be true, isn't it?

But you haven't yet shown a verse that says we are saved collectively. When you do, then you can say then it must be true.

Now people would read John 3:16 as if it is the only verse in the bible but of course you know very well there are other verses besides that. Even that very verse, people are lost in understanding. Let me show you:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Who loved the world?
God so loved the world.

How did God show he loved the world?
He gave his one and only Son. [Hence God is the giver, the Son is the given. God is different from the Son.]

What is the result of believing the Son?
Whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

People should believe in the Lord Jesus Christ otherwise people would not have eternal life - isn't that so? Now what are one of the things the Lord Jesus said, that we should believe - so we can have eternal life?

John 10:9
I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.

View attachment 18032

Is it really true? How true is the statement that the Lord Jesus is the gate?

John 10:7
Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep.

Sometimes people couldn't believe their ears and eyes that the Lord Jesus really have to repeat it again and with a strong declaration - VERY TRULY. Are these literal sheep and how did Jesus address "his sheep"?

Luke 12:32
“Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom.

So the Lord Jesus said whoever enters through me will be saved. Now where is this little flock?

Is the church, the flock - people who believe in the Lord Jesus? Yes.

Did Christ establish a church? Yes - Matthew 16:18

Is Christ the head of his church (his body)? Yes - Colossians 1:18
Did Christ love his church? Yes - Ephesians 5:25
Will Christ save his church (his body)? Yes - Ephesians 5:23

How important is the Church of Christ? It is important because the Lord Jesus purchased the church with his blood.

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

How about those outside the Church of Christ, were they purchased with his blood? No. It is the Church of Christ which was purchased by his blood. How about the rest of mankind who are not the Church of Christ?

Hebrews 9:22
In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

What do you do with verses like 1 Corinthians 15:7-8 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, [8] and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

and

Acts 22:6-16 Paul's account of when he was saved individually?

 

[Deeje]

Do you think one of those thieves on the cross with Jesus wen to to heaven?

Yes.

Actually, the answer is no. If you read the account, you will see that Jesus promised the thief that he would be with him "in paradise"...not "heaven". Is there a difference.....yes.

Luke 23:39-43:  "Then one of the criminals hanging there began to speak abusively to him, saying: “You are the Christ, are you not? Save yourself and us too!” 40 In response the other rebuked him, saying: “Do you not fear God at all, now that you have received the same judgment? 41 And we rightly so, for we are getting back what we deserve for the things we did; but this man did nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said: “Jesus, remember me when you get into your Kingdom.” 43 And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”

This man was not a Christian, but had a change of heart before his death. Both Matthew and Mark report both robbers reproaching Jesus beforehand.

Matthew 27:44.... "In the same way, even the robbers who were on stakes alongside him were reproaching him."

Mark 15:32... "Let the Christ, the King of Israel, now come down off the torture stake, so that we may see and believe.” Even those who were on stakes alongside him were reproaching him."

Since Jesus promised heaven only to those who were parties to the "new covenant", he said that these ones had 'stuck with him in all his trials'. (Luke 22:28-30) The thief did not qualify for life as a priest in heaven....or the "first resurrection". (Revelation 20:6)

The paradise that the Jews were expecting was earthly. His disciples asked him before his departure...."Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” (Acts 1:6) Jesus assured them that all would be revealed soon. And at Pentecost, it was. Holy spirit was poured out on a group of 120 disciples who were anointed with holy spirit and were thereafter able to speak in foreign languages to witness to the many visitors to Jerusalem who had come for the festival. Their hope changed from one in an earthly kingdom to one in the heavens.

But just as the first paradise had been earthly, so the paradise promised to the thief was earthly.. God's purpose for the earth and mankind has never changed. God's heavenly kingdom would have earthly subjects, restoring all things in Christ. (Revelation 21:2-4)

God will restore all that Adam lost for his children, including the paradise home from which he was evicted. On the basis of his sacrifice, Jesus promised a resurrection to all who died, (therefore paying 'sin's wages'.) Among those resurrected are the "unrighteous" who presently sleep in death. When Jesus rules as King in his kingdom, along with his 'chosen ones', then he will call all the dead from their graves. (John 5:28-29)

You also have to take into account the fact that Jesus did not go to heaven until his ascension, 40 days after his resurrection, (Acts 1:3) so no one was "with Jesus" that day. The placement of the comma in that sentence gives a false impression. There was no punctuation in the Greek language, so the comma was placed there by English translators. It changes the whole meaning of the sentence.

So what Jesus was promising the thief was life by resurrection in the earthly paradise to come, under his rulership.

Was he water baptized? What good works did he do?

No and none. But why would he since baptism in water in Jesus's name wasn't given until after the thief's lifetime?

Indeed. No baptism was required. He was paying for his own sins with his own life. Jesus' sacrifice would guarantee him a resurrection and a chance to prove himself in the "new earth" to come. (2 Peter 3:13)

Have you ever looked at it like this before?

 

[omega2xx]

Do you think one of those thieves on the cross with Jesus wen to to heaven?

Yes.

Was he water baptized? What good works did he do?

No and none. But why would he since baptism in water in Jesus's name wasn't given until after the thief's lifetime?

Because being baptized with water, no matter who is mentions will not save the person. This should be clear when John mentions another baptism by another person, If John's water baptism was sufficient, then Jesus's baptism is of no value. It is like Paul saying in Gal 2:21 that if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died needlessly.

[/QUOTE]Now answer mine.[/QUOTE]

Can you tell to me how much your church leadership teaches or had taught about salvation?

Very little. The way of salvation is a basic doctrine explained in many verses but probably easiest understood by Eph 2:8-9.

The main thing we do in Sunday school and from the pulpit is go through a book of the Bible verse by verse. In Sunday school those who come can ask question and or make comments on the verse under consideration. That plus personal study is the best way to learn the Bible.

And can you explain to me why no one gets, that water baptism in Jesus's name for forgiveness of sins/salvation was not given until after the thief's lifetime? Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38.

Because a basic doctrine in conservative theology teaches that water baptism does not save. Does baptizing a baby save the child? If it doesn't save the child, it doesn't save the adult. We have a water ritual we go through with babies, but we call it a dedication, not a baptism.

One thing to consider, even if water baptism did save, it would only save those who came in true repentance, not just to fulfill some church doctrine, In fact John's water baptism was for repentance. Only those who have been baptized by the Holy Spirit feel the need to repent.

Think about your own life. Before you were saved, did you feel the need to repent? The unsaved don't even understand repentance.

 

[MJFlores]

But you haven't yet shown a verse that says we are saved collectively. When you do, then you can say then it must be true.

What do you do with verses like 1 Corinthians 15:7-8 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, [8] and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

and

Acts 22:6-16 Paul's account of when he was saved individually?

1 Corinthians 15:7-8; Acts 22:6-16 are verses where the Lord "Jesus appeared" to his apostles. Saul heard the voice of the Lord while James and the apostles saw Jesus after God raised Jesus from the dead.

I don't understand why you quoted these verses as these are irrelevant to your topic - which is about "salvation"

Being in the church founded by Christ is very important as Paul wrote:

Ephesians 1:18-23 New International Version (NIV)

I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

So those who are in his church - have the hope and his glorious inheritance because God placed all things under the Lord Jesus' feet and appointed him to be head over everything - FOR THE CHURCH, which is his body.

Ephesians 5:32
This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.

 

[e.r.m.]

Because being baptized with water, no matter who is mentions will not save the person. This should be clear when John mentions another baptism by another person, If John's water baptism was sufficient, then Jesus's baptism is of no value. It is like Paul saying in Gal 2:21 that if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died needlessly.

Now answer mine.[/QUOTE]

Very little. The way of salvation is a basic doctrine explained in many verses but probably easiest understood by Eph 2:8-9.

The main thing we do in Sunday school and from the pulpit is go through a book of the Bible verse by verse. In Sunday school those who come can ask question and or make comments on the verse under consideration. That plus personal study is the best way to learn the Bible.



Because a basic doctrine in conservative theology teaches that water baptism does not save. Does baptizing a baby save the child? If it doesn't save the child, it doesn't save the adult. We have a water ritual we go through with babies, but we call it a dedication, not a baptism.

One thing to consider, even if water baptism did save, it would only save those who came in true repentance, not just to fulfill some church doctrine, In fact John's water baptism was for repentance. Only those who have been baptized by the Holy Spirit feel the need to repent.

Think about your own life. Before you were saved, did you feel the need to repent? The unsaved don't even understand repentance.

How thoroughly does your church teach salvation from the pulpit?

 

[metis]

A good example of liberal theology. The righteous, the sheep, had been doing the good works, The goats, were not doing it because they did not believe in Jesus.

But the goats believe about Jesus, and this is what you don't get, namely the difference between talking-the-talk and walking-the-walk. A true belief in Jesus teaches one to do both, and yet you only go with for former.

The reality is that you really only accept parts of Jesus' teachings that coincide with what you've been taught to believe by your denomination, which cherry-picks the scriptures to fit into their pre-determined agenda. Over and over again Jesus and the apostles demand living out of the gospel and not just sitting back with a nice comfortable rocking-chair religion while spouting p.c. dogmas.

So, let me recommend you reread the entire N.T., and while doing this simply ask yourself "What does Jesus and the apostles expect from me?".