Question for the Non-Muslims

[Malleus_de_Philosophia]

i didn't mean it to be offencive.

It's not you that are offensive, it's the entire concept of being sent to hell.

you do good right. so tell me for whose sake do you do that good and what do you wish to acheive from it? do you give in charity for the sake of the poor people because they are less fortunate?

I do good for myself and for others. I achieve my goals for my satisfaction, however, the goals (depending what they are) benefit others. I wish to achieve, depending on the goal, recognition that I succeeded in that goal and to formulate a new one and to have another challenge placed in front of me.

I don't often give to charity but if I do, it's sometimes some used clothing or random things that may be useful but aren't too badly damaged. All in all, I'd say I don't give often. My dream goal is to become a doctor, either PhD or PsyD or MD and through that help individuals. The methods of obtaining it may not necessarily benefit others along the way for all of it. The general theme for me is if I cannot help myself, then I'm not going to help out someone else.

 

[TashaN]

Why would an omniscient do such a thing?

Am I not already submitting to its will by rejecting him?

Surely if this god is such a great designer, seer, know-er, sustainer of all the worlds then surely whatever I do or don't do was of his design.....right....

True. Everything is of his design. He gave you free choice to reach him through your own way. You are saying that it wouldn't be fair to create you with these abilities then complain when you use these abilities, right?

The answer is, God purposely gave you these abilities so your decision can be an informed one. That's why you can freely reject him but that doesn't mean it's what he want from you. Note that, your rejection might be part of your spiritual growth.

That is my point.
it seems to me that god is much more likely to be something different than what you personally define/picture him.

How do you know that?

So it stands to reason that if god shows up and he is not what you believe him to be, you will most likely reject him as god because he does not fit into your preconceived notion of what god is.

Thus the reason I disagree with your statement:

"If God was in front of you, you wouldn't doubt his existance."
​

I reckon that that depends upon how big a bully you believe god to be.

I believe that a true God would be recognizable without having even to say or do a thing at all.

Seems to me that if God appeared before you and he does not meet your preconceived notion of what god is, then you would dismiss him as the Dajjal (or the anti-Christ were you a Christian).

No, not that that, and i'll tell you why. Prophet Mohammed has specified *in details* how the dajjal looks like, what he would say and even what he would do. If someone has a strong belief in God, he won't be fooled by the dajjal.

Think about it for a few minutes....
Would not the Dajjal appear exactly as you have made god out to be in order to convince you that it is really god.

My notion of the appearance of God in front of us is just hypothetical because according to Islam, God can be seen only on judgment day, and we have a detailed description of what a judgment day is.

The most interesting thing, IMO, is that if the Dajjal (anti-Christ) shows up, it will be accepted by most people as god simply because it will fit their preconceived notion of what god is.

Indeed, that's the different between Muslims and non-Muslims, though, many many Muslims too would be fooled by him.

 

[Autodidact]

My notion of the appearance of God in front of us is just hypothetical because according to Islam, God can be seen only on judgment day, and we have a detailed description of what a judgment day is.


Indeed, that's the different between Muslims and non-Muslims, though, many many Muslims too would be fooled by him.

How do you know you're not fooled?

 

[TashaN]

How do you know you're not fooled?

fooled by?

 

[YmirGF]

fooled by?

Islamic dogma perhaps?

 

[DarkSun]

Islamic dogma perhaps?

She doesn't need to know whether or not she's wrong. She just has to have faith that she's right.

 

[Autodidact]

fooled by?

Dajjal.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

True. Everything is of his design. He gave you free choice to reach him through your own way.

There can be no "free will" if an omipotent/omniscient is the designer/creator/sustainer. This appears illogical. At best you have been designed, created with a predestined pathway. Even that would be pointless for a god to do. Why would a god do anything? Knowing full well the outcome of all things the act of doing (anything) is futile.

You are saying that it wouldn't be fair to create you with these abilities then complain when you use these abilities, right?

The answer is, God purposely gave you these abilities so your decision can be an informed one.

These are rationalities expressed by the religious to make themselves feel important. I'm not speaking on fairness. If a god who is all powerful, all knowing and eternal creates then expects his creation to obey a set of rules and if said creation does not follow these rules then this same god will issue a everlasting punishment seems to be an illogical concept and invalidates the description of this god's abilities.

That's why you can freely reject him but that doesn't mean it's what he want from you. Note that, your rejection might be part of your spiritual growth.

If a god exist outside of our universe (space and time) then he wants for nothing. If everything submits to the will of Allah (God) then whatever I did, do, will do, won't do....is due to how he created me and has planned my outcome. Correct?


What could I possibly do that Allah does not already know? If I believe I'm choosing to reject him then surely there's no need to punish me considering his knowledge of me and what I was going to do he knew before he created the universe.

"God"....(IMO)...Is a human construct.

 

[Gharib]

Great! Now we are making progress. This is exactly the kind of evidence we need. By all means please post the video, maybe it deserves its own thread.

actually i must say, my bad.
you being a non believer would not believe in such things. so for me to say that was a mistake. i explained earlier about hos there are things that non believers should not be debating or talking about and i went against my own statement.

On a side note....

You know, many statues of the Virgin Mary have cried tears of blood. Many cases of this are occurring all the time. Christian pilgrims come from all over to visit these statues, and are healed of their ailments and disabilities. There have also been many cases of what is called Stigmata, where the wounds of Christ as he died on the cross for our sins appeared on certain people, as signs to people of Christ's sacrifice. They bleed from their palms, and feet, where they nailed Jesus, and from their side (where the lanced pierced Jesus), and from their head (where Jesus wore the crown of thorns). Here's a video of one woman who has the stigmata on every Good Friday, it was confirmed by respected UCLA doctors to be a genuine miracle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAaTE_WbDGY Many people have also witnessed the Virgin Mary, for example there was one man who would preach a sermon and then throw a basket of rose petals on the ground, and the petals miraculously formed the image of the Virgin Mary. Many people converted to Christianity on the spot. I personally know a woman who has a PhD who witnessed this miracle, and this sign from God left no doubt in her mind that the Virgin Birth and Resurrection occurred.

But there are other possible explanations. Hoaxes. Misreporting, misconception, exaggeration. These things are common.

yes your thread seems to be very good about these miracles being hoaxes. it's kind of like the balloon boy, the truth comes out sooner or latter.

 

[Gharib]

I do good for myself and for others. I achieve my goals for my satisfaction, however, the goals (depending what they are) benefit others. I wish to achieve, depending on the goal, recognition that I succeeded in that goal and to formulate a new one and to have another challenge placed in front of me.

I don't often give to charity but if I do, it's sometimes some used clothing or random things that may be useful but aren't too badly damaged. All in all, I'd say I don't give often. My dream goal is to become a doctor, either PhD or PsyD or MD and through that help individuals. The methods of obtaining it may not necessarily benefit others along the way for all of it. The general theme for me is if I cannot help myself, then I'm not going to help out someone else.

i see. let me give you an example.

you work for a company that helps people, a comapny that does good for a change. someone in that company unlike you does not like to help other people from his own will (doing charitable work) but because he is being payed, he does that work for the sake of the company and earning some money just as you and every other worker. what you consider good, he doesn't. what he consider good you probably don't. so having said that, if you do things that you think are right, you get no reward from anyone. but if you do good for the sake of someone, they reward you for it, even though you may or may not want a reward, they still insist.

so getting back to the muslims, part of being a muslim is to want paradise, to love it and to want to end up in it. so, muslims go on doing things (pretty much everything although we tend to dissobey due to our human nature) only for the sake of Allah in hope that he rewards us with paradise. we do not do things to gain a recognition (as you have said) if we did that, then that counts as doing the deed for the sake of recognition and not the sake of Allah. once you do things for the sake of Allah only then he rewards you accordingly without any injustice. intention in islam is very important. it is even more important than the action. Allah judges by both intention and action.
if you have an intention to do good for the sake of Allah and you do not carry it out, Allah counts that as one good deed.
if you have an intention to do good and you carry it out, then Allah counts that as 10 good deeds.
if you have an intention to do bad but do not carry it out, Allah counts it as one good deed.
if you have an intention to do bad and carry it out, then Allah counts that as one bad deed.

 

[Gharib]

I believe that a true God would be recognizable without having even to say or do a thing at all.

just as you would recognise a true prophet from a false one. many people accepted islam at first sight of prophet Muhammed (saws)

 

[Gharib]

How do you know you're not fooled?

there is a difference between a muslim who says he is a muslim and a muslim who does not need to say he is a muslim, his actions speak for themself.

in this case, the actions of brother Tashan speak for themself. he would not be fooled by the Dajjal. he will have a croocked leg, one eye and a disgusting face. that doesn't sound like god now does it.

 

[Gharib]

Islamic dogma perhaps?

anything else, or is that it?

 

[smitten508]

Catholics define hell as separation from divinity... We also define heaven as union with the blessed trinity. I have no fear of the hell of Islam. Because I'm not Muslim!lol. I have a God that was as human as I am and so understands Me in my temptations and trials. The God I worship doesn't threaten Me with eternal fire, because I love my fellow man. The Lord God, I AM, has revealed itself to man through MANY signs... Each breath being the most common. So I suppose I could reason that I don't fear any hell from allah. I only fear not loving fellow man as Christ has loved Me, not because of hellfire' but because I love God and want to please It... But never for fear of hell.....

 

[Autodidact]

just as you would recognise a true prophet from a false one. many people accepted islam at first sight of prophet Muhammed (saws)

Sounds like you're pretty confident in your own judgment.

 

[Autodidact]

there is a difference between a muslim who says he is a muslim and a muslim who does not need to say he is a muslim, his actions speak for themself.

so Muslims don't do bad things?

in this case, the actions of brother Tashan speak for themself. he would not be fooled by the Dajjal. he will have a croocked leg, one eye and a disgusting face. that doesn't sound like god now does it.

What does God look like?

Are there good muslims with crooked legs? With one eye? Are they made in the image of God?

 

[YmirGF]

anything else, or is that it?

No, Islamic dogma covers pretty much everything, Eselam.

 

[painted wolf]

I can't go to the Islamic version of hell... God is merciful not a tyrant.

wa:do

 

[Gharib]

Sounds like you're pretty confident in your own judgment.

it's not my judgement that i'm confident in. every side has 2 stories and the right one ussualy stands out by itself.

 

[Gharib]

so Muslims don't do bad things?

ofcourse they do, i never said they don't.
the prophet has said in a hadith that a person who sins is but a muslim. he discribed our faith as a shirt that we wear. everytime we sin, our faith is taken away from us and returned back afterwards (hence we are but a muslim), over time it wears out and becomes weak, just as a T-shirt does. so he has said that we must ask Allah to renew our faith and strengthen it.

What does God look like?

he looks like nothing that our brains can imagine or think of.
one example Allah is in a state of Patience (As-Sabur) at all times.
He is in a state of Seeing (Al-Basir) at all times. can your brain explain/think of such a thing/being?

Are there good muslims with crooked legs? With one eye? Are they made in the image of God?

there are good muslims with one leg, one eye, 2 eyes, no eyes etc etc. the creation of Allah is not made in his image. our looks do not represent Allah. he is Unique (Al-Wahid) and he is only One (Al-Ahad)

112:4 And there is none like unto Him.