Mr Spinkles
Mr
Oh I totally understand that the Islamic world was at various periods in history the bastion of free thinking and science and open debate, etc. But the topic of this thread is the Islamic concept of hell, not Islam generally. eselam posted a link that says in its opening:very good, i'm happy to see our progress in this discussion. I'm more convinced than ever that there is a miscommunication and misunderstanding problem between us, Muslims, and others. We have our own *stuff* to do but it might be misunderstood by non-Muslims who don't have enough information about Islam and Muslims.
There is no *thought crime* in Islam. Muslims have enjoyed through centuries a very open and educated environment which tolerates differences. In the past, many scholars were speaking to each other through writings. They were challenging each other and even ridiculing each other sometimes. But today, in many Muslim countries, a systematic elimination of diversity in thoughts had been installed, and the fear of being different has caused many scholars to be extreme and use violence to prove their point of view, which wasn't happening in the past.
Believe me, i did an extensive research about Muslims in the past, and i reache to the result that as a whole, it was a very open society that it entertained at times, even the decleartion of atheism amongst some thinkers. Note that, at that time, Christians were behading anyone who disagree with the church. At that time, you can hardly hear of an open society which entrtain thinking freely and tolerate diversity. At times, there was an intolerance of diversity, but it was an ignorance in the past of the Caliph, not the religion they hold itself.
"Fear the fire, which is prepared for the disbelievers."
[Ali'-Imran, 3: 131]
"Truly Hell is lying in wait- a destination for the transgressors."
[an-Naba, 78: 21-22]
(One’s rejection of faith is transgression against Allah and himself).
How is this not thought-crime? This is the very definition of thought-crime.[Ali'-Imran, 3: 131]
"Truly Hell is lying in wait- a destination for the transgressors."
[an-Naba, 78: 21-22]
(One’s rejection of faith is transgression against Allah and himself).
I said that this idea of hell is just the religious version of thought-crime and it constrains free thought. Don't you agree that a person is *more* liberated to think about a question, if that person is not threatened with punishment for arriving at the wrong conclusions?
Just a comment: of course God supposedly created us to think. We exist, and we think, so if a culture is going to develop a god it would never develop a god that created us all the same with no ability to think. No culture developed such a god, not the Aztecs or Egyptians or Greeks, why? Because no culture would develop a mythology that contradicts obvious facts about the world. (This is like the question of the puddle and its shape: did the ground form itself to accomodate the water or did the water adapt its shape to the ground?) The question is how do you develop a god that is consistent with the fact that we think, but which also discourages this annoying tendency? The awkward solution developed by monotheism is the "test of faith", and here are its consequences (according to eselam's link):Tashan said:Now, getting back to the law. This law came from someone perfect, God, we assume, and everyone would abide by this law, and there is no restriction at all when it comes to thinking freely because God is the same one who created this mind for us, who told us in the Quran to think.
“Those who have disbelieved and died while they are disbelievers will have the curse of Allah upon them and the [curse of the ] angels and all of mankind. [they will abide] eternally therein. The punishment will not be lightened for them, nor will the punishment be postponed.”
[Sahih al-Baqarah, 2: 161-162]
In other words, you are "free" to think. Just don't arrive at the wrong conclusions, or you will be punished. This is a curious form of "freedom", to be sure. You may as well point an M16 rifle at a writer's head and tell him he is "free" to say whatever he wants about your mother.[Sahih al-Baqarah, 2: 161-162]
I see what you're saying Tashan but at the end of the day, this is different from other fields of knowledge or inquiry. For example, when I go to a physics seminar there is no ritual where we all re-affirm our belief in various theories of physics. If a theory is good the facts should speak for themselves, just talk about the evidence and the facts, there is no need for reassurances and affirmations and oaths of loyalty and faith. There is no notion that there is a moral component to one's beliefs about thermodynamics or astrophysics. There is no hell where you will be sent if you don't believe in string theory. It is simply a matter of collecting the best observations, facts and data, and applying reason and judgment to our best ability, and having debate. At worst, people with unorthodox views are ignored.Regarding the posters who talk about guarding their faith. Even me pray like that but it's not as it looks. I don't know how to explain it. These types of prayers were performed by Prophet Mohammed himself and he encouraged us to do it. That doesn't mean we are afraid that others might persuade us or something, but it's something between us and God, something .... i don't know, i think this need its own thread if you are interested. Ok, let me try. Through these prayers, we show our need for God, because some of our sins might drive us away from the truth, so we always ask God to forgive us, and guard our faith in him, not from others, but from ourselves, the mistakes we do, the sins we do. I hope you got what i'm tyring to say here. I was born as a Muslim, and i'm not a scholar, just a regular Muslim man, so i might not be able to fully translate what i feel and think about Islam to you in words and expressions which are easy to grasp by a non-Muslim, but i'm trying my best.
You can't deny that physics would be more constrained and less free if we introduced those ideas. And people would question and think about religion more freely if they could overcome the idea of hell, etc.
Okay but suppose we consider everything God does. And now, keeping everything else the same, we change one thing: disbelievers don't go to hell for eternity. Is this more or less merciful?You picked one thing, and forgot about everything else. Sending them to hell desn't conflict with him being the "Most Merciful" because you still don't know ALL what God does to be called so. When you compare between his mercy and his punishment, at the end you would be able to conclude why would he deserve to be called the "Most Merciful".
Certainly, my point is that I understand the feeling of certainty, that you can't explain, that comes with faith in God. You said: He is the Creator of this entire universe. If you really started to think of him as the Creator of the entire universe and of all these great things we have in life, oh, if you really know who is God, you would start thinking how tiny and how selfish, and how ungrateful we are. I had these exact same thoughts.I don't want to say anything about Christianity, but all what i can say is that Christianity is different than Islam.
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