Question for the Non-Muslims

[JustWondering]

firtsly, can you please read about the islamic concept of hell here before answering the question, that would be very much appreciated.

Q: why do you care if Allah was to send you to hell?

Since hell is a made up imaginary punishment/concept used to try scaring people into believing/worshipping a made up imaginary god (Allah) your question is irrelevant. Asking you if you would care if Zeus hit you with a lightning bolt because you touch yourself at night would make as much sense.

 

[Onkara]

Happy journey.Probably I will come with you.

LOL, Great, hopefully there we can continue this topic face to face

 

[Metempsychosis]

LOL, Great, hopefully there we can continue this topic face to face

:hug:

 

[challupa]

Easlam, you say we would not believe god was god if he came as a man. I think I would believe god was god if he came as a man and did something no man could do. Why doesn't he do that if he wants us to believe he exists. Some of us are good at faith and believing, but others like me suck at it. Don't you think god could help the rest of us by showing up and doing something we know no man can do?

 

[Amill]

even if someone cape up to you and said a rare purple elephant exists and i saw him you would not believe him. when you ask him about it he will say it looks like any ordinary elephant but it just had a purple colour. would you believe that?

No I wouldn't. As claims become more and more extraordinary my skepticism becomes greater and greater.

 

[sonofskeptish]

Ok, I reviewed this article. Nothing new to add to my understanding of the Islamic Hellfire.


You have to understand my perspective, Eselam. First I don't believe there is an Allah that is going to "do" anything to me. Second, I do not believe in any form of Hell worlds but understand why religions have created them to entice followers to their imagined "right path". Third, I do not expect any kind of rewards for my current life, you see, my "reward" if you must look at it in those terms, IS THIS LIFE. Quite honestly, my perspective is its own reward and is the result of innumerable lifetimes struggling through the muck of spiritual inquiry.

So, to fully answer your question, in literal terms, I do not care what Islam has to say about the afterlife. It is simply of no concern to me personally. I do become concerned when Muslims trumpet this vision of the afterlife as being reality however. To my thinking, that is just plain weird. I know many Muslims seek to warn us about our alleged fate but it seems to me that they are already living in their own self-created hell and so, are in no position to offer anyone any advice, except perhaps, how not to live ones life.

Well summarized.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Easlam, you say we would not believe god was god if he came as a man. I think I would believe god was god if he came as a man and did something no man could do. Why doesn't he do that if he wants us to believe he exists. Some of us are good at faith and believing, but others like me suck at it. Don't you think god could help the rest of us by showing up and doing something we know no man can do?

Yeah and it's not like this would inconvenience God in any way. If God is Almighty then this would be an absolutely effortless thing to do. Heck, I am a mere mortal and even I do not feel too inconvenienced to send messages to everyone on RF directly. There are many limited, finite humans in the world who have not been too inconvenienced to make their existence known in such a way that no sane person disbelieves in their existence. President Obama can go on all the talk shows and appear on radio and TV but God can't?

And what a bizarrre "test" this is. I can imagine plausible tests, but this is not one of them. Supposedly, the Creator cares more about whether his creations have correctly interpreted subtle clues he has left them, than He does about their well-being or how they treat each other. To use Tashan's analogy, if Tashan created his race of little robots and treated them this way, the only explanation would be that this satisfies his enormous ego and his desire to amuse himself. He might care about the robots, too, but these are not the actions Tashan would take if he cared about the robots FIRST and everything else came second. The absolute, worst you could possibly say about any unbelieving robots is that they were imperceptive or not very bright in interpreting the clues. At best, you might say they were more perceptive and more thoughtful than the ones who followed blindly. And for that thought-crime, and that alone, Tashan throws even kind, honest robots into Hell where they scream in pain forever. Of course Tashan would never do this because even Tashan, with his limited wisdom and love, would not behave this way.

So nothing about the "test" makes sense, given the fact that the Creator is supposed to be all-wise and loving and all-powerful. It can only be made plausible if we assume that, actually it does make sense, but our puny brains are incapable of making sense of it. BUT you could use this excuse to rationalize ANYTHING at all (again I refer you to Christian apologetics).

The ONLY thing that makes sense about all this, is that at every step of the way, each assumption and each rationalization is designed to encourage people to believe in something despite the lack of evidence. The common thread that joins all the bizarre assumptions and apparent contradictions is convenience. And this is precisely what we would expect a religion to do if its claims were man-made. And this is basically what all religions do.

 

[Gharib]

Hehe. Well in that case I would simply say

(1) it is possible to rationalize anything (just read Christian apologetics, for example you will instantly see what I mean); and

there is also the possibility that nothing is being rationalized, it's how it is.
could you give me one such example from the christian side and the muslim side and why in your oppinion makes you think that the example you use has been rationalized?
it's kind of dificult to agree with you without knowing what you are thinking of.

(2) the rationalizations you gave are precisely those used in other (false) religions, and they are precisely the rationalizations we would expect if there was no God interacting with humans in the way that you claim. In other words, if there was not a God, we would expect all the "evidence" to consist of humans (not god directly) claiming to speak on his behalf, and stories of miracles performed centuries ago *as we see in other false religions* (e.g. Christianity and the miracle of the Resurrection). Not actual miracles, occurring regularly every day, but rare and implausible stories recorded by the human hand in our ignorant past. It would be necessary to explain why God never manifests himself directly. The concept that this is all a "test" gets the job done, though awkwardly.

that is a good point, so let me try and break it down:

1) from what you've said (i was expecting you to say the things you did) god would have to come to us in the likeness of man generation after generation. by generation i mean to you, your son, your grandson etc etc forever. your statement clearly shows that unless we personally see god with our own eyes performing some miracles we would not believe in him because someone is rationalising.

2) lets for example say Jesus was god (due to the miracles he performed). as i mentioned before he gave sight to the blind and life to the dead with the persmission of Allah. now i assume you agree with me that no man can do that, no matter what. and here we are you still do not believe that, why? well because 1) you weren't there to witness it, 2) unless you witness it, it is not possible for such a thing to occur. so again as i said, god would have to come to us generatin after generation simply because man will not believe in him.

so now i ask you, are us religious people rationalizing things, or is it the non religious that no matter what miracle came to them they would still not believe in god.

you also say that these miracles happened and were recorded in our ignorant past. won't we also be ignorant to the people that may live on earth some 3000 years from now? is it by default that we become ignorant simply because they will have better lifestyles than us in every aspect. also why do you call them ignorant? maybe uncivilised would have kind of been ok, but ignorant? ignorant of what?

So in other words, IF what you are saying is true, yes we expect to see prophets and God not manifesting directly. I concede that to you.

thank you, looks like the dissagreeing to agree thing works. lol

But IF what you say is not true, then we still expect to see prophets and God not manifesting directly just as we expect (and see) this in all the false religions. (You and I both know why the Greek gods only spoke through the Oracle of Delphi .... they could only speak through humans because humans made them up!)

the only thing we can see of god is his power, which proves his existence. you don't neccessaraly need to see a huricane to know that the damage caused in a particular town was from a huricane. even though you may not be an expert on huricanes and someone comes and says a volcano did it, you would know that he is lying. the same thing with gods power, but people just don't attribute it to him, they attribute it elsewhere. as for the greeks they had way to many gods, i can't imagine a god having limits. they had one god for the sun, one for giving and taking life, why can't it just be one all powerfull god?

 

[TashaN]

Personally, I'm more inclined to say that rather than asking: "who is right?", the question could better be phrased as: "who is more right?"

That's so interesting. Your comment is so simple, and yet, you are the only person i know who said this to me. That's why i believe that you are "more right" in this issue than me.

You can quote the Quran all you want, but if the person being quoted to doesn't believe that to be literally true to begin with, then you've essentially proven nothing.

That wasn't meant to be used as a proof, but just as a case study, in details.

 

[TashaN]

Hi Tashan ,

Ahhh, yes that does explain a lot, thank you. Do you realize this is not generally accurate? Does eselam?

Remember that there are two (perhaps three) different issues and it's easy to confuse them: (1) The existence of Hell, and its rightness or wrongness; and (2) The existence of the IDEA of Hell and its uses in society/politics.

Issue (1) to me is just an empirical question. Either there is evidence that Hell exists, or there is not. Hell either exists, or it does not, whether it is right or wrong i.m.o.

Tashan I would be thrilled if someday you cared to read a little book by probably my favorite author, George Orwell. Do you know who he is? I love him for his brutal honesty ("I was no good ... an unattractive boy"), as he puts it he has always had "a power of facing unpleasant facts". He worked to help poor communities and volunteered to fight the fascists in the 1930's during the Spanish Civil War, and witnessed both the aggression of fascism as well as the terrors of Stalinism. The book is called 1984, it's basically a portrait of a future fascist/communist state (Orwell himself was a socialist) and I especially want to draw your attention to the concept of "thought crime". (Or, if you don't have time for an entire book read Orwell's essay "Such, such were the joys" which consists of his memories of the boarding school he attended as a child, which in some ways had characteristics of a totalitarian regime (for children).)

I'll read that essay soon then get back to give you my comments about what i have read. Regarding the book, i'll try to read it someday when the chance arise.

The point is that there is a collection of ideas which are very useful for controlling and bullying and demoralizing people, and imposing authoritarian rule over people:

• You can be convicted for your THOUGHTS (not just your actions). And not just thoughts about hurting others, but mere thoughts about philosophy, the facts of the world or the authenticity of historical events.
• You must simultaneously FEAR and LOVE the leader (or the country, whatever).
• Everything you do, and say, and feel, and think, is being watched.
• Everything good comes from the Leader. Everything bad is because you were disobedient.
• The leader is infallible.

This is a system of thought that pervades the Abrahamic religions but also pervades fascist and authoritarian thinking (including the atheistic Stalinist and Maoist thinking). With these ideas, it is basically not possible for anyone to be good. Even if you accomplish something, you didn't really accomplish it, it was only through the grace and blessings of the Leader. It follows that the leader (or God, the Church, whatever) is doing us a favor by even tolerating our pathetic existence. We are in debt and have no right to ourselves, our lives, our thoughts, etc.

The problem I have with these ideas is that I think (1) they are not actually true, and (2) this is a way to control people and to prevent people from entertaining unorthodox thoughts.

You will of course point out that Islam embraces learning, debate, thinking outside the box, etc. But you cannot deny that there would be MORE learning and thinking outside the box if people did not believe in "thought crime". It's not just Islam of course, but I have seen many times even on RF Muslim posters talk about how Muslims must guard their faith. In other words, they must take precautions not to have unacceptable thoughts or they might be persuaded, and go to hell. This is a very different outlook from a person who is willing to change their mind and accepts the possibility of being persuaded by something new.

very good, i'm happy to see our progress in this discussion. I'm more convinced than ever that there is a miscommunication and misunderstanding problem between us, Muslims, and others. We have our own *stuff* to do but it might be misunderstood by non-Muslims who don't have enough information about Islam and Muslims.

There is no *thought crime* in Islam. Muslims have enjoyed through centuries a very open and educated environment which tolerates differences. In the past, many scholars were speaking to each other through writings. They were challenging each other and even ridiculing each other sometimes. But today, in many Muslim countries, a systematic elimination of diversity in thoughts had been installed, and the fear of being different has caused many scholars to be extreme and use violence to prove their point of view, which wasn't happening in the past.

Believe me, i did an extensive research about Muslims in the past, and i reache to the result that as a whole, it was a very open society that it entertained at times, even the decleartion of atheism amongst some thinkers. Note that, at that time, Christians were behading anyone who disagree with the church. At that time, you can hardly hear of an open society which entrtain thinking freely and tolerate diversity. At times, there was an intolerance of diversity, but it was an ignorance in the past of the Caliph, not the religion they hold itself.

When it comes to the laws of Allah, think of it as a constitution for a specific country. No body, i say *NO BODY* is above the law, including the Caliph/King/President. You can't see that in fascism. In fascism, the leader is everything, and the leader is right even if he was wrong, unlike Islam. You might say to me that the same can be said about a god. My answer to you would be that, we Muslims don't follow anything blindly. Let me give you an example, as a child, one would believe, really believe that his parents wouldn't hurt him "in perfect situations", and that his parents would do everything for his own good, to be successful and happy forever. A child would think in this way because he knows that his parents brought him to life from nothing, and raised him while he was little helpless creature. That's why he trust them.

The same can be said about God, but here, we are talking about someone who is more perfect than those parents.

Now, getting back to the law. This law came from someone perfect, God, we assume, and everyone would abide by this law, and there is no restriction at all when it comes to thinking freely because God is the same one who created this mind for us, who told us in the Quran to think. If what God say about him being the creator, then i don't see why it would be difficult for him to make us a copy of each other, to make us think the same, and worship him on the same manner, but instead, he gave us the chance to think On the other hand, fascist leaders don't have the POWER to control the minds of his followers, on the same manner that God could do. That's why they resorted to the "thought crime" ideology, unlike God, who had the POWER to control our minds, but he simply set us free. If he were a fascist God, he would have simply made us all Muslims within seconds. Any fascist leader dream of such a tool which can control the minds of his followers, that's why they have invented so many methods, like the one you have mentioned for me.

Regarding the posters who talk about guarding their faith. Even me pray like that but it's not as it looks. I don't know how to explain it. These types of prayers were performed by Prophet Mohammed himself and he encouraged us to do it. That doesn't mean we are afraid that others might persuade us or something, but it's something between us and God, something .... i don't know, i think this need its own thread if you are interested. Ok, let me try. Through these prayers, we show our need for God, because some of our sins might drive us away from the truth, so we always ask God to forgive us, and guard our faith in him, not from others, but from ourselves, the mistakes we do, the sins we do. I hope you got what i'm tyring to say here. I was born as a Muslim, and i'm not a scholar, just a regular Muslim man, so i might not be able to fully translate what i feel and think about Islam to you in words and expressions which are easy to grasp by a non-Muslim, but i'm trying my best.

If I was wrong about something, but I thought I would go to hell for thinking differently, HOW WOULD I KNOW that I was wrong? How could I ever find out? Think about this. I did, when I was Christian.

I don't know how does it feel to be a Christian, but from where i'm standing now, as a Muslim, i always find the answer. This is how i think. I say to myself, ok, if Islam was the truth, then i'll always find the answer, not answers that might suit me, but real answers. I always find the answer in Islam despite of my constant search everywhere around me for new fresh thoughts to challenge my current beliefs. So far, none were as good as Islam. You might not believe me, you might think i'm being bias because i was born as a Muslim, and you might think that i'm standing now where you were standing before as a Christan. I know what you are thinking about now regarding my answer, but it's deeper than you think, and it's different. It's unique, and i would be more than happy to share more things with you.

 

[TashaN]

Actually that's not really true, and this is important. I believe in the existence of things because there is physical evidence for them (beyond human mythologies). I don't necessarily think the planet Jupiter or my uncle Bob have higher standards than me, yet I believe they exist. I think gods are part of human mythologies and therefore it is possible for me to judge them in that context, because the idea of gods is an extension of human thought. So I'm not really thinking about whether Allah is merciful. I'm thinking about the mercy of the people who would celebrate this human-made idea, and (what I see as) the contradictions in the idea, which are a consequence of an ancient idea confronting a changed world.

For example, think about the Greek god Poseidon. If we believed he really existed, of course you and I and every sane person would pray to him before any sea journey. If he really existed, it would be hard for us to answer questions about how he can be "great" when he sends hurricanes, etc. We would just have to accept it is a bit of a mystery, but anyway the gods are great and powerful and who are we mortals to question them? It would be as stupid and pointless to question or judge Poseidon as it would be to question or judge a hurricane or a volcano.

The problem with this is that if it is okay for a god to behave in such a tyrannical way, why not humans? If a god can treat humans like playthings, why can't the State treat them that way especially if the State is an extension of the god's power on Earth? You only need to convince a minority of loyal fanatics that this is true.

But since we DON'T BELIEVE Poseidon actually exists.... then it is possible to judge him. And it is possible to entertain a mode of thought which can overcome established tradition and question power and take responsibility for itself when necessary.

Sorry, hope I'm not ranting too much...

No, i really enjoy your reasoning.

I think you are right about the sequence of your analysis, but you got it wrong when you judged God before knowing him. You need to know the defenition of God in Islam first then only you can analyze his power.

I think you are on the right track, but also a little bit off track. In my opinion of course.

First of all, you have changed the question a little. Suppose you do have the right to send the robots to burn forever, on the sole basis of their beliefs about the universe around them--particularly your own existence. The question is, would that be the "Most Merciful" action to take?

You picked one thing, and forgot about everything else. Sending them to hell desn't conflict with him being the "Most Merciful" because you still don't know ALL what God does to be called so. When you compare between his mercy and his punishment, at the end you would be able to conclude why would he deserve to be called the "Most Merciful".

Secondly, I know very, very well the feeling of being awed and thankful for everything God has given me, and the feeling that I am just a tiny speck and how wonderful it is..... keep reading, now .... how wonderful it is that God would send his one beloved son, Jesus, to die on the cross for my sins. Yes, I am VERY well acquainted with that feeling, and I never rejected the feeling but I was persuaded by facts about the world.

I don't want to say anything about Christianity, but all what i can say is that Christianity is different than Islam.

 

[TashaN]

To be picky, then he didn´t give us our soul, since giving us our soul would mean he would steal it if he took it back without our permission. Lend might be a better word.

Maybe. I just hope you got my point at the end.

Any God who would torture ANYONE for guessing wrong is a monster. Any being who leads through fear rather than example is a tyrant.

Why would you WANT to worship such a creature?

I wouldn't.

 

[TashaN]

Yeah and it's not like this would inconvenience God in any way. If God is Almighty then this would be an absolutely effortless thing to do. Heck, I am a mere mortal and even I do not feel too inconvenienced to send messages to everyone on RF directly. There are many limited, finite humans in the world who have not been too inconvenienced to make their existence known in such a way that no sane person disbelieves in their existence. President Obama can go on all the talk shows and appear on radio and TV but God can't?

And what a bizarrre "test" this is. I can imagine plausible tests, but this is not one of them. Supposedly, the Creator cares more about whether his creations have correctly interpreted subtle clues he has left them, than He does about their well-being or how they treat each other. To use Tashan's analogy, if Tashan created his race of little robots and treated them this way, the only explanation would be that this satisfies his enormous ego and his desire to amuse himself. He might care about the robots, too, but these are not the actions Tashan would take if he cared about the robots FIRST and everything else came second. The absolute, worst you could possibly say about any unbelieving robots is that they were imperceptive or not very bright in interpreting the clues. At best, you might say they were more perceptive and more thoughtful than the ones who followed blindly. And for that thought-crime, and that alone, Tashan throws even kind, honest robots into Hell where they scream in pain forever. Of course Tashan would never do this because even Tashan, with his limited wisdom and love, would not behave this way.

So nothing about the "test" makes sense, given the fact that the Creator is supposed to be all-wise and loving and all-powerful. It can only be made plausible if we assume that, actually it does make sense, but our puny brains are incapable of making sense of it. BUT you could use this excuse to rationalize ANYTHING at all (again I refer you to Christian apologetics).

The ONLY thing that makes sense about all this, is that at every step of the way, each assumption and each rationalization is designed to encourage people to believe in something despite the lack of evidence. The common thread that joins all the bizarre assumptions and apparent contradictions is convenience. And this is precisely what we would expect a religion to do if its claims were man-made. And this is basically what all religions do.

I'm not God. God created the universe, and created us. There is absolutely no comparison between us and Him. Why wouldn't he just appear to us? there would be no point in this test if he appeared to us. Not that this test is much more important than us, but, he wanted us to be free to choose whatever path we like.

 

[Autodidact]

I'm not God. God created the universe, and created us. There is absolutely no comparison between us and Him. Why wouldn't he just appear to us? there would be no point in this test if he appeared to us. Not that this test is much more important than us, but, he wanted us to be free to choose whatever path we like.

Apparently, assuming He exists, which appears unlikely, He wishes us to take this test hampered by insufficient information.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

firtsly, can you please read about the islamic concept of hell here before answering the question, that would be very much appreciated.

Q: why do you care if Allah was to send you to hell?

I don't believe in gods......

But the concept of an omnipotent and "omniscient" being that would even condemn me to "hell-fire"...seems illogical and pointless.

If a god knows everything about me and all that I did, do and will do..because this is how it created me and I submit to its will then what's the point of condemnation?

 

[TashaN]

Apparently, assuming He exists, which appears unlikely, He wishes us to take this test hampered by insufficient information.

This life is still like a puzzle to me, and i had grasped so little so far. I can't answer for God and i don't claim to have all the answers. I'm just sharing my little part of solving this puzzle.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

there is also the possibility that nothing is being rationalized, it's how it is.
could you give me one such example from the christian side and the muslim side and why in your oppinion makes you think that the example you use has been rationalized?
it's kind of dificult to agree with you without knowing what you are thinking of.

For example, the Holy Trinity. There is only one god, but there are also three: God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit. On the surface, this makes no sense. But if you think about it, and use your imagination, and TRY to make it make sense, then sure, you can say something is three and one at the same time. A trident has three prongs but it is one object. If it still doesn't make sense you can always just say God is mysterious, it requires faith, the human mind can't comprehend it, etc.

It takes a lot of childhood indoctrination, and repetition, and a lot of technical theological jargon, and big impressive churches with the aura of authority, to make people believe they know, for a fact, these non-answers are true.

For examples of rationalization in Islam, just look at this thread or many threads like it. We have the claim that Allah would set up this bizarre test of faith. Why? Because. How is it merciful to send good people to Hell? God is mysterious. It takes a lot of childhood indoctrination and repetition and a lot of study to pretend to know these non-answers are true, just as in the Holy Trinity case.

that is a good point, so let me try and break it down:

1) from what you've said (i was expecting you to say the things you did) god would have to come to us in the likeness of man generation after generation. by generation i mean to you, your son, your grandson etc etc forever. your statement clearly shows that unless we personally see god with our own eyes performing some miracles we would not believe in him because someone is rationalising.

2) lets for example say Jesus was god (due to the miracles he performed). as i mentioned before he gave sight to the blind and life to the dead with the persmission of Allah. now i assume you agree with me that no man can do that, no matter what. and here we are you still do not believe that, why? well because 1) you weren't there to witness it, 2) unless you witness it, it is not possible for such a thing to occur. so again as i said, god would have to come to us generatin after generation simply because man will not believe in him.

so now i ask you, are us religious people rationalizing things, or is it the non religious that no matter what miracle came to them they would still not believe in god.

First of all why would God have to appear in the likeness of a man? He could appear as anything, like a big booming voice in the sky. Or send an angel. And you make it sound like a chore for God to appear "generation after generation", like this would be an unreasonable expectation. But if God is all-powerful and if he is everywhere at once in the first place, this need not require any special effort on his part, in fact it would be more natural to say God needs to make a special effort to disappear "generation after generation".

Secondly, to answer your question: you tell me, eselam. Do religious people rationalize things? Are Christians rationalizing things when they say God is one and three at the same time? And how can you say I will not believe in God no matter what miracle comes to me? I have not seen any miracles or seen convincing evidence for any miracles. A scrap of papyrus or something from the 7th century that says Muhammad rode a flying horse is not a miracle. That's a story about a miracle.

Thirdly, you didn't really respond to my point, which was that other religions use similar rationalizations. Christians would say God sent his Son Jesus to die for your sins, and this life is a test to see if you will have faith in this or not. You are failing the test, eselam, therefore you deserve to go to Hell. Imagine you died today, you got to heaven and this was explained to you. You didn't believe in Christ, you failed the test. Does that make sense? Is that fair or "merciful"?

you also say that these miracles happened and were recorded in our ignorant past. won't we also be ignorant to the people that may live on earth some 3000 years from now? is it by default that we become ignorant simply because they will have better lifestyles than us in every aspect. also why do you call them ignorant? maybe uncivilised would have kind of been ok, but ignorant? ignorant of what?

eselam you and most of the other Muslims were trying to convince me that they were ignorant, remember? In another thread you guys thought it was remarkable that the developing embryo was described as a "chewed piece of flesh" in Islamic scripture. Why was that description so remarkable? Because they were so ignorant back then, you argued.

They didn't even know the most fundamental laws of physics or how the planets stay in orbit, what are eclipses and comets or what they signify, why is there drought or rain, what causes the tides, etc. They thought mental illness was caused by demonic possession instead of genetics, environment and brain chemistry. Many things that were not understood were attributed to supernatural forces. I'm not just talking about Arabia, I'm talking about most parts of the world in the 7th century.

If they weren't ignorant then we would accept at face value the religious scriptures of Zoroastrianism, Manichaeism, the Egyptian Book of the Dead and all the other ancient religions, whose scriptures were burned and deleted from memory by victorious Christians, Muslims, and Jews.

the only thing we can see of god is his power, which proves his existence. you don't neccessaraly need to see a huricane to know that the damage caused in a particular town was from a huricane. even though you may not be an expert on huricanes and someone comes and says a volcano did it, you would know that he is lying. the same thing with gods power, but people just don't attribute it to him, they attribute it elsewhere. as for the greeks they had way to many gods, i can't imagine a god having limits. they had one god for the sun, one for giving and taking life, why can't it just be one all powerfull god?

Why do you think the Oracle of Delphi only spoke prophesies in cryptic and strange terms? Why do you think the Oracle did not give clear answers, like "the volcano will erupt at noon in three weeks"? I want you to play the skeptic for a moment and tell me what you think.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I'm not God. God created the universe, and created us. There is absolutely no comparison between us and Him. Why wouldn't he just appear to us? there would be no point in this test if he appeared to us. Not that this test is much more important than us, but, he wanted us to be free to choose whatever path we like.

How would God's appearance infringe on our freedom to choose "whatever path we like"? Suppose God appeared, people could still choose any path they like. It would simply be an informed choice.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Mr Sprinkles,

Suppose God appeared, people could still choose any path they like. It would simply be an informed choice.

Just a small correction.
A path is only till one merges with the universal there after the path / ladder becomes redundant. As the goal once reached the path ends. i.e. *god* [if one uses that label] meets the individual only at the end of the path / way / religion.

Love & rgds.

 

[TashaN]

How would God's appearance infringe on our freedom to choose "whatever path we like"? Suppose God appeared, people could still choose any path they like. It would simply be an informed choice.

I don't think so. If God was in front of you, you wouldn't doubt his existance.