Hi Tashan
,
I'll tell you the trick behind that question and i hope eselam won't hate me for ruining it. :foot:
Actually, eselam think--and i hope i'm right--that there is a fear shared by many non-Muslims and atheists especially, that what the Muslims say about hell and the life after death might be true, which means they have a slight doubt about their own beliefs. They still think there is a chance that Muslims are right about this whole hell issue. So, by using logic, if those people don't believe that hell or Allah exist, they shouldn't care about all of that because they believe it's not happening, it's a delusion, etc, right? So, if they are keeping complaining about how hell is unfair, then that means they have a doubt, that their unbelieve in Allah might be wrong.
Ahhh, yes that does explain a lot, thank you. Do you realize this is not generally accurate? Does eselam?
Remember that there are two (perhaps three) different issues and it's easy to confuse them: (1) The existence of Hell, and its rightness or wrongness; and (2) The existence of the IDEA of Hell and its uses in society/politics.
Issue (1) to me is just an empirical question. Either there is evidence that Hell exists, or there is not. Hell either exists, or it does not, whether it is right or wrong i.m.o.
Tashan I would be thrilled if someday you cared to read a little book by probably my favorite author, George Orwell. Do you know who he is? I love him for his brutal honesty ("I was no good ... an unattractive boy"), as he puts it he has always had "a power of facing unpleasant facts". He worked to help poor communities and volunteered to fight the fascists in the 1930's during the Spanish Civil War, and witnessed both the aggression of fascism as well as the terrors of Stalinism. The book is called 1984, it's basically a portrait of a future fascist/communist state (Orwell himself was a socialist) and I especially want to draw your attention to the concept of "thought crime". (Or, if you don't have time for an entire book read Orwell's essay "
Such, such were the joys" which consists of his memories of the boarding school he attended as a child, which in some ways had characteristics of a totalitarian regime (for children).)
The point is that there is a collection of ideas which are very useful for controlling and bullying and demoralizing people, and imposing authoritarian rule over people:
- You can be convicted for your THOUGHTS (not just your actions). And not just thoughts about hurting others, but mere thoughts about philosophy, the facts of the world or the authenticity of historical events.
- You must simultaneously FEAR and LOVE the leader (or the country, whatever).
- Everything you do, and say, and feel, and think, is being watched.
- Everything good comes from the Leader. Everything bad is because you were disobedient.
- The leader is infallible.
This is a system of thought that pervades the Abrahamic religions but also pervades fascist and authoritarian thinking (including the atheistic Stalinist and Maoist thinking). With these ideas, it is basically not possible for anyone to be good. Even if you accomplish something, you didn't really accomplish it, it was only through the grace and blessings of the Leader. It follows that the leader (or God, the Church, whatever) is doing us a favor by even tolerating our pathetic existence. We are in debt and have no right to ourselves, our lives, our thoughts, etc.
The problem I have with these ideas is that I think (1) they are not actually true, and (2) this is a way to control people and to prevent people from entertaining unorthodox thoughts.
You will of course point out that Islam embraces learning, debate, thinking outside the box, etc. But you cannot deny that there would be MORE learning and thinking outside the box if people did not believe in "thought crime". It's not just Islam of course, but I have seen many times even on RF Muslim posters talk about how Muslims must guard their faith. In other words, they must take precautions not to have unacceptable thoughts or they might be persuaded, and go to hell. This is a very different outlook from a person who is willing to change their mind and accepts the possibility of being persuaded by something new.
If I was wrong about something, but I thought I would go to hell for thinking differently, HOW WOULD I KNOW that I was wrong? How could I ever find out? Think about this. I did, when I was Christian.
Tashan said:
If i were you, i would look for a deity which have a higher standard of mercy, logic, and morals than me, otherwise i won't believe in it.
Actually that's not really true, and this is important. I believe in the existence of things because there is physical evidence for them (beyond human mythologies). I don't necessarily think the planet Jupiter or my uncle Bob have higher standards than me, yet I believe they exist. I think gods are part of human mythologies and therefore it is possible for me to judge them in that context, because the idea of gods is an extension of human thought. So I'm not really thinking about whether Allah is merciful. I'm thinking about the mercy of the people who would celebrate this human-made idea, and (what I see as) the contradictions in the idea, which are a consequence of an ancient idea confronting a changed world.
For example, think about the Greek god Poseidon. If we believed he really existed, of course you and I and every sane person would pray to him before any sea journey. If he really existed, it would be hard for us to answer questions about how he can be "great" when he sends hurricanes, etc. We would just have to accept it is a bit of a mystery, but anyway the gods are great and powerful and who are we mortals to question them? It would be as stupid and pointless to question or judge Poseidon as it would be to question or judge a hurricane or a volcano.
The problem with this is that if it is okay for a god to behave in such a tyrannical way, why not humans? If a god can treat humans like playthings, why can't the State treat them that way especially if the State is an extension of the god's power on Earth? You only need to convince a minority of loyal fanatics that this is true.
But since we DON'T BELIEVE Poseidon actually exists.... then it is possible to judge him. And it is possible to entertain a mode of thought which can overcome established tradition and question power and take responsibility for itself when necessary.
Sorry, hope I'm not ranting too much...
Tashan said:
I said, imagine if i made some robots, do i have the right to terminate them and destroy them permanently without a reason? yes of course, i said to myself. To Allah, we are just like toys which he put souls into.
I asked again, imagine if i'm a mother who believe in abortion, would i let go of the baby? then the answer came, yes of course. The mother, who did absolutely nothing to get this child, she just had sex with a male and BINGO, she got pregnant, she is choosing to abandon this child for good, and no body will complain, it's her own child right? some might say.
Now, imagine with me if this so called Creator were the one who created this flesh and blood, bones, eyes, ears, hair, of this child. He gave this child the ability to grow by his own will. He gave him a soul. He gave him a mother to care for him, he gave him strength to grow and be an adult and if i talked about the things the creator did, i would write a book about it. The Creator sent prophets to guide people who went astray from his path. He sent them to take them from darkness into light. From ignorance into knowledge. If the Creator did all that, does he still have the right to destroy this child for instance in the womb of his mother "if he want" or not? you think after he did all of this, he deserve the denying and neglecting of this soul?
This Creator made it happen because he said Be then it been. How can he not end this life simply, or throw it away, or burn it, or bury it, or do whatever he want with it?
There would be a problem in the way we reach to our conclusions if we didn't give this Creator, God his proper place and his real role. He is not just a normal king who is waiting for you to obey him. He is the Creator of this entire universe. If you really started to think of him as the Creator of the entire universe and of all these great things we have in life, oh, if you really know who is God, you would start thinking how tiny and how selfish, and how ungrateful we are.
After you know what this God claim to be and he has done for us, then you can judge him.
Think about what i told you and tell me if i slightly could reach to an answer or even a semi-answer to your question, because it was my question too at the end of the day, and i'm still working on it. Do you think my reasoning is flawed somehow, or i'm on the right track?
I think you are on the right track, but also a little bit off track. In my opinion of course.
First of all, you have changed the question a little. Suppose you do have the right to send the robots to burn forever, on the sole basis of their beliefs about the universe around them--particularly your own existence. The question is, would that be the "Most Merciful" action to take?
Secondly, I know very, very well the feeling of being awed and thankful for everything God has given me, and the feeling that I am just a tiny speck and how wonderful it is..... keep reading, now
.... how wonderful it is that
God would send his one beloved son, Jesus, to die on the cross for my sins. Yes, I am VERY well acquainted with that feeling, and I never rejected the feeling but I was persuaded by facts about the world.
