Question for the Non-Muslims

[Gharib]

Except you are wrong. I know people without any gods who I would never say lived in a world full with darkness. The idea that without faith there is nothing, that faith somehow is your only chance of becoming a good person, is flawed, irrational and unrealistic.

where did i say that faith is the only chance at becoming a good person?

 

[Kerr]

where did i say that faith is the only chance at becoming a good person?

You used the word "darkness", and since our (the "unbelievers") lives are not inheritly filled with it at all you where wrong. Didn´t realize you meant good people end up in hell. Do bad people go to heaven?

 

[nameless]

according to islamic laws, he would be jailed for some years and will be left free, so his sufferings has an end. But for the same crime the punishment in hell would be never ending, so there is huge difference in the punishment in hell and here, it is not the same. Understand now? waiting for explanation.

for nameless

Why is the punishment of unbelieving in Allah is staying in Hell forever?

The word unbelief is the opposite of faith. The world of the unbeliever is full of darkness. Because unbelief severs man’s connection with Allah. A person severing his relation with Allah lives in the darkness both in his heart, in his spirit and also in his mind. The Qur’an describes the world of the unbeliever as follows:


“Or (the Unbelievers' state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean, overwhelmed with billow topped by billow, topped by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above another: if a man stretches out his hand, he can hardly see it!” (the Qur’an, The Light (An-Nur); 40 (24: 40))


Unbelief is an insult towards all being things because every living thing worships Allah. Every one of them is a dominical letter, a mirror to the glory of Allah and a servant of Allah. Since unbelief veils those aspects and reduces them to the level of futility and being the playthings of chance, it is an infinite crime and it necessitates an infinite punishment.

eselam, do you think this would answer my question? pls read again my question. These statements explains why an unbeliever is given permanent punishment, and not in the case for criminals. And still the punishment for the unbeliever too feels to be illogical.

 

[Gharib]

You used the word "darkness", and since our (the "unbelievers") lives are not inheritly filled with it at all you where wrong. Didn´t realize you meant good people end up in hell. Do bad people go to heaven?

Allah knows who goes to hell and paradise, only he has perfect knowledge and judgement.

 

[Gharib]

eselam, do you think this would answer my question? pls read again my question. These statements explains why an unbeliever is given permanent punishment, and not in the case for criminals. And still the punishment for the unbeliever too feels to be illogical.

if that doesn't answer your question then i personally do not know the answer at this point in time.

 

[Kerr]

Allah knows who goes to hell and paradise, only he has perfect knowledge and judgement.

Was that a yes?

And if you truly do not know, why say that unbelief makes you go to hell?

 

[nameless]

if that doesn't answer your question then i personally do not know the answer at this point in time.

it is not, actually quran has no answer to that. So it has to be said that concept of hell is illogical and those who believe in hell are blind.

 

[Gharib]

it is not, actually quran has no answer to that. So it has to be said that concept of hell is illogical and those who believe in hell are blind.

and how did you come to that conclusion? see what i meant in the other thread. why are you like this, does it make you feel good about yourself to say false things about other religions. if so then you may continue.

i am not a scholar, i do not have answeres to everything, so just because i don't know the answere that doesn't mean islam doesn't have answeres.

 

[Gharib]

Was that a yes?

And if you truly do not know, why say that unbelief makes you go to hell?

i never mentioned any yes's.

i say unbelief makes you go to hell because Allah says so in the quran. but i cannot say which person precisely will go to hell or not because i do not know that. i can tell you that those who believe in other gods other than Allah and who die in such a state Allah says those people will go to hell.

 

[nameless]

i am not a scholar, i do not have answeres to everything, so just because i don't know the answere that doesn't mean islam doesn't have answeres.

if every muslim takes this same defense to justify quran, then how is it possible to prove mistakes in quran? at least you should accept that you were following quran blindly till now as you never inspected whether it has any valid justice.

 

[Gharib]

if every muslim takes this same defense to justify quran, then how is it possible to prove mistakes in quran? at least you should accept that you were following quran blindly till now as you never inspected whether it has any valid explanation.

oh my god, ok i'll tell you what, make your question one more time and explain what the asnwer should contain, and i will find it for you.

 

[nameless]

oh my god, ok i'll tell you what, make your question one more time and explain what the asnwer should contain, and i will find it for you.

hmm, how many times should i repeat my question, i would appreciate if you check our previous posts, if you feel that difficult, just say me, i will once more post those.

 

[Gharib]

hmm, how many times should i repeat my question, i would appreciate if you check our previous posts, if you feel that difficult, just say me, i will once more post those.

no can you say it again but word it differently, in an easier way to understand then exact question so i know what to look for.

 

[DarkSun]

It's not a contradiction, it's a misunderstanding for the concept.

Oh really?

The concept of heaven and hell is not something which been created for us. Heaven and Hell were created before us with ages. God didn't set them up for us. We weren't meant to enter hell on the first place "as a theory" because Adam and Eve were living in heaven--please assume that you believe in that story for the sake of the argument. Yes, as you know they were living there, and because we had to come to earth on a "temporary mission" that was explained in my previous post, so we have to go there again, to out eternal living which Adam and Eve were enjoying before going down to earth.

That's what we Muslims believe in, and i don't want to force you to accept it, but all what i ask you here is just to listen and try to understand the concept so you could understand where we are coming from.

I have heard the story of Adam and Eve from the Christian perspective, but not the Muslim perspective, I'm afraid. However, I choose not to believe in this story when faced with the plethora of evidence against it. It seems to me that only some prankster God would try and trick us with a whole bunch of evidence against what He has already told us is true. But this is my opinion.

Anyway, I digress. I can assume that this story is true for the sake of what you're trying to say. No worries.

So, this eternal living whether in heaven or hell can't be seen as a reward and punishment, but more as going back home, either in our great house, or our bad house, depending on the trip we made and after making up our minds. You have to choose whether to enjoy on your trip without limits then go back to a bad peremenant house, or to follow all the instructions to go back home safely without any injuries or regrets.

This life is not the purpose of our living, but we are here just for a short trip as i have explained before, and the hereafter is where we are going back home finally to live forever, not to be punished for ever. Some people would choose to live a good eternal life in heaven, and others would choose to mess things up then end up in hell.

Can non-Muslims get into paradise if they are genuinely kind people? I guess you don't really know what Allah is thinking, do you? So... if you don't know who goes to Paradise and who burns for eternity, then why have this discussion to begin with? It's up to Allah (swt) in the end, and as imperfect humans, we shouldn't be making such judgements about others.

Also . . . I still don't understand how any action we make could warrent going into the "bad house" at the end of the day. Yes, we probably chose our actions, but in no way did we choose such a brutal and horrific consequence. If Allah is all-powerful, then he should be able to help these people. And if He can't help these people, then He is not omnipotent. And if he merely chooses not to help these people, then He sounds rather evil to me. What other reason could there be for Him to set up such unfair laws before we came to exist?

God is merciful, but why?

Although he can put us in hell for no reason, just for the heck of it, he didn't do it. He created us and he can do with us whatever he want. We are living because he gave us souls, and he can take it whenever he want. Rather than sending us to hell, as an eternal home, he gave us the chance to have a great life on earth, then come back to him and enter to heaven. Not only that, he also sent so many prophets to warn us, and guide us all to the truth. He is merciful because he made equal, which means that whatever defect or problems one had, God would make it up to him/her either in this life or the other life.

Yes, I suppose He could be less merciful than He currently is. But that doesn't say much about Him, in my opinion.

Only insane people would say that this life is fair. Why you were born in the West and others are dying in Africa?

Chance.

And yes, it is incredibly unfair . . .

are you saying this is fair and it's "unfortunate for them" as someone in RF told me once. Unfortunate for them? how can a decent man think in this way.

We know better than to assume that we are living in a fair world. What some might not understand is that this life is a test for us, to see whether a rich man gonna give to the poor or not, whether we would do good or not. In Islam, when we think of rich people, we say God gave them this wealth as a responsibility, not because they got lucky!

What if a person doesn't see this life as a test, but still lives according to what you have described? Would they still be "choosing" to go to the "bad house" because they have gone against what Allah had intended for them?

"Fortunate people" should know that they will be accountable for what they do and how they deal with "unfortunate people". This is what i believe in.

And I whole-heartedly agree.

I'm willing to share more with you because i like your reasoning and i really respect your views and your posts in general. You even push me to think harder about what i already believe in.


Peace and blessings,
Faisal

Thank you, I enjoy reading your posts as well. I'm currently finding that there are a lot of nasty people on the RF - and it's always good to get away from the sarcasm, isn't it?

Kind regards,
SolOscura.

 

[TashaN]

Oh really?

I have heard the story of Adam and Eve from the Christian perspective, but not the Muslim perspective, I'm afraid. However, I choose not to believe in this story when faced with the plethora of evidence against it. It seems to me that only some prankster God would try and trick us with a whole bunch of evidence against what He has already told us is true. But this is my opinion.

Anyway, I digress. I can assume that this story is true for the sake of what you're trying to say. No worries.

Thank you.

Can non-Muslims get into paradise if they are genuinely kind people? I guess you don't really know what Allah is thinking, do you? So... if you don't know who goes to Paradise and who burns for eternity, then why have this discussion to begin with? It's up to Allah (swt) in the end, and as imperfect humans, we shouldn't be making such judgements about others.

It's true that at the end of the day only Allah knows who would go to either paradise or hell, but Allah already said in the Quran that only Islam would be accepted by Him.

Also . . . I still don't understand how any action we make could warrent going into the "bad house" at the end of the day. Yes, we probably chose our actions, but in no way did we choose such a brutal and horrific consequence.

The same like when someone do some business but end up in bankruptcy. Can you say he didn't chose that ending so he doesn't deserve it? of course not! it's just a consequence for the path he chose. Plain and simple.

If Allah is all-powerful, then he should be able to help these people. And if He can't help these people, then He is not omnipotent. And if he merely chooses not to help these people, then He sounds rather evil to me. What other reason could there be for Him to set up such unfair laws before we came to exist?

We don't make the rules. We were nothing before he gave us souls to live, so we have to listen to him at least, don't you think?

Please read post # 208 & 209 at the link below:
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...3-quran-infallable-word-god-6.html#post578111

Try to read what i said there carefully, think about it, ponder it, then come here and tell me what you think, and of course you can ask me more as well if you still didn't catch what i'm trying to get at.

Yes, I suppose He could be less merciful than He currently is. But that doesn't say much about Him, in my opinion.

I don't think i'll be able to stop if i started to write about how merciful God is, that's why i would refer you to a good thread about Allah. You will find the answer regarding Allah being merciful in post # 19, but i encourage you to read the entire thread because it's all about Allah if you are interested to know about how Muslims view God.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam/78073-allah.html#post1485629

Chance.

It's not just a chance, it was planned this way. That there should be goddness and evil in this world, rich and poor, etc.

And yes, it is incredibly unfair . . .

What if a person doesn't see this life as a test, but still lives according to what you have described? Would they still be "choosing" to go to the "bad house" because they have gone against what Allah had intended for them?

Sorry, i didn't get this one. Can you please elaborate?

And I whole-heartedly agree.

Thank you, I enjoy reading your posts as well. I'm currently finding that there are a lot of nasty people on the RF - and it's always good to get away from the sarcasm, isn't it?

Kind regards,
SolOscura.

Indeed. you are most welcome.

 

[Riverwolf]

i never mentioned any yes's.

i say unbelief makes you go to hell because Allah says so in the quran. but i cannot say which person precisely will go to hell or not because i do not know that. i can tell you that those who believe in other gods other than Allah and who die in such a state Allah says those people will go to hell.

Gladly, too.

 

[challupa]

hmm here's a thought. Maybe hell is just the place where people from all other religions go, but it isn't really hell, it is really the heaven of their god......

 

[gnostic]

A person severing his relation with Allah lives in the darkness both in his heart, in his spirit and also in his mind.

Allah has a heart?

The only function of heart is to pump blood through the body, carrying vital oxygen, as well as removing carbon (in the form of carbon dioxide). If he is immortal and invincible spirit, so what use is a heart in a supposed deity?

Do a god required body parts like human? Do allah required food and water too, hence required digestive system, like stomach and intestines, kidney and liver? And does he need to pee and crap, like every human and animals?

 

[challupa]

Allah has a heart?

The only function of heart is to pump blood through the body, carrying vital oxygen, as well as removing carbon (in the form of carbon dioxide). If he is immortal and invincible spirit, so what use is a heart in a supposed deity?

Do a god required body parts like human? Do allah required food and water too, hence required digestive system, like stomach and intestines, kidney and liver? And does he need to pee and crap, like every human and animals?

I think he was referring to the person who was seperated from Allah that they would have darkness in all those places. Could be wrong.....

 

[DarkSun]

Thank you.

No worries. Thank you for being so patient with me.

It's true that at the end of the day only Allah knows who would go to either paradise or hell, but Allah already said in the Quran that only Islam would be accepted by Him.

So you're saying that all non-Muslims are going to go to hell? What happened to people before the revelation of Mohammad? What if you're a genuinely good person, you do everything you can to help others, but you don't believe in Allah? What about the tribes in remote parts of the world who have never heard of Islam? Have these people gone to Hell because of the rules that Allah has put in place? That seems slightly unfair to me.

The same like when someone do some business but end up in bankruptcy. Can you say he didn't chose that ending so he doesn't deserve it? of course not! it's just a consequence for the path he chose. Plain and simple.

There's a difference between bankruptcy and burning in eternal pain, in my opinion. One is slightly understandable... the other is completely unfair.

We don't make the rules. We were nothing before he gave us souls to live, so we have to listen to him at least, don't you think?

I realise we didn't make the rules. But that doesn't make the rules that were put in place fair in any way, now, does it?

Please read post # 208 & 209 at the link below:
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...3-quran-infallable-word-god-6.html#post578111



Try to read what i said there carefully, think about it, ponder it, then come here and tell me what you think, and of course you can ask me more as well if you still didn't catch what i'm trying to get at.

Thanks, I'll take a look after this. And I will think about it.

I don't think i'll be able to stop if i started to write about how merciful God is, that's why i would refer you to a good thread about Allah. You will find the answer regarding Allah being merciful in post # 19, but i encourage you to read the entire thread because it's all about Allah if you are interested to know about how Muslims view God.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam/78073-allah.html#post1485629

Thanks, I'll look at that too.

It's not just a chance, it was planned this way. That there should be goddness and evil in this world, rich and poor, etc.

Good and evil are human constructs . . .

Sorry, i didn't get this one. Can you please elaborate?

I was just wondering how the rules put in place regarding hell are fair. Perhaps you could elaborate on why it is fair that Allah designed the universe in such a way that those who obey Him return to the "good house" (as you've worded it), and those who go against His intentions are adversely choosing to go to the "bad house". How is that fair?

I think I will have to read those other forum posts before I ask about this, though.

Indeed. you are most welcome.

As are you.