Gharib
I want Khilafah back
you are correct.
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Question for the Non-Muslims
- Thread starter Gharib
- Start date
you are correct.
nameless
The Creator
you did not understand what i mean through this? how can i make more simple than this?
DarkSun
:eltiT
He was asking why all people who disobey Allah's intentions reveive equal punishment. How is it fair that someone who doesn't believe in Allah is given the same punishment as a rapist, a murderer or a pedophile?
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DarkSun
:eltiT
Technically, no, the heart does not remove carbon dioxide. The blood only stores carbon dioxide - in no way does it remove it (and neither does the heart). One of the roles of the respiratory system includes carbon dioxide removal, however.
About 20% of carbon dioxide travels in eryhtrocytes through the blood bound to haemoglobin, a further 70% is transported within the erythrocyte in the form of bicarbonate ion, and roughly 10% is dissolved in blood plasma (not in the red blood cell).
BTW, I got a HD in Anatamy and Physiology II. Yay!
Gharib
I want Khilafah back
hell is in levels, 7 of them. each crime/sin has it's own punishment. i never said everyone has the same punishment. where did nameless get that from?
nameless
The Creator
kindly read properly what i mentioned, when a sin is done, if punishment is given here, then it would not be everlasting, but if punishment for the same sin is given in the hell it would be everlasting. For the same crime why duration of the punishment different? My question is same as before, i think you have serious oblivion.
Gharib
I want Khilafah back
the punishment is different because this life is temporary so the punishment is temporary. while the hearafter is etternal so the punishment is etternal.
if a person sencierly repented then Allah forgives him for the sin without being punished, Allah will also forgive whom he wants on the day of judgement, after the judging has been done those who go to hell will stay there forever appart from some people who have done both good and bad and must be punished for a certain amount of time for the bad that they have commited.
if a person sencierly repented then Allah forgives him for the sin without being punished, Allah will also forgive whom he wants on the day of judgement, after the judging has been done those who go to hell will stay there forever appart from some people who have done both good and bad and must be punished for a certain amount of time for the bad that they have commited.
nameless
The Creator
why is it not possible for allah to free the sinner once the same amount of punishment is given as in this world?
it is not ethical to give more punishment than one actually deserves. If someone does adultery, according to islamic laws a punishment of 100 lashes are given, so for that sort of sin, the doer deserves only that much punishment. But when it comes to punishment in hell, it is forever, so it does not match with the punishment given in this world. The sinner should be left free once the same of amount of punishment in given, but it is not like that. So why allah doing like this?
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DarkSun
:eltiT
Okay, I see what's being asked now. How is it fair to punish someone for an infinite amount of time for something that they were perceived to have done wrong, in a finite life?
BruceDLimber
Well-Known Member
RR, meaning no offense, DarkSun appears to be understanding far better than you what I was saying.
First off, I stressed that WE PLACE OURSELVES into the spiritual condition of either Heaven or hell based on our decisions and actions: the scenario isnt' one of an old man on a throne condemning people!
Nor did I say how immediately a given individual (such as the terrorists you obsess about) would achieve Heaven, or what changes he or she would first have to undergo for this to occur! You appear to be taking a worst-case situation and taking it to extremes.
The Baha'i scriptures have other things to say about criminals and punishments for crime, and if you read these I'm confident you'll find a very different picture from the situation you portrayed.
Regardless, none of us here have all the details about how the Next Life works, so what I said was based on that small amount of knowledge we have been given.
And my point about the existence of a more positive view of the Next Life holds.
Peace,
Bruce
First off, I stressed that WE PLACE OURSELVES into the spiritual condition of either Heaven or hell based on our decisions and actions: the scenario isnt' one of an old man on a throne condemning people!
Nor did I say how immediately a given individual (such as the terrorists you obsess about) would achieve Heaven, or what changes he or she would first have to undergo for this to occur! You appear to be taking a worst-case situation and taking it to extremes.
The Baha'i scriptures have other things to say about criminals and punishments for crime, and if you read these I'm confident you'll find a very different picture from the situation you portrayed.
Regardless, none of us here have all the details about how the Next Life works, so what I said was based on that small amount of knowledge we have been given.
And my point about the existence of a more positive view of the Next Life holds.
Peace,
Bruce
As you are patient with me and my theistic assumptions.
I didn't say that. Those who were there before Mohammed have nothing to fear, because they simply believed in the previous revelation. That's why, if i were living before the time of the message of Prophet Mohammed, i would have been a Christian, because the last Messenger before Mohammed was Jesus. I guess you already know that as Muslims we are not allowed to distinguish between a Prophet and another because they are all the prophets of Allah. Some might ask, then why Muslims talk about Mohammed most of the time? my answer would be that, Mohammed is a representation for the last message to the worlds, the last testament, the Quran.
That's why Allah said in the Quran ...[FONT=Verdana,arial]
[/FONT]Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (Quran 2:62)
Helping other people is just part of our purpose but it's not our main purpose in life. Let me ask you this question. What do you think of a person who ignore, neglect, deny the rights of his parents, then go around and help other people?
People, us, human beings, will see in him a hero, a good man.
The same can be said about someone who steal from people billions of dollars then spend some thousands and even millions to the community just as part of his campaign to "look good on the eyes of people".
Now, i can't say that ALL non-Muslims are like that, but i'm giving you some examples to shed a light on the importance of priority in doing goodness, and also about the concept of good and bad.
What is good and what is bad? tell me please, who considered to be a good person 100% and who is a bad person 100%? Can you tell? or you just can judge from what you see or hear? I can guarantee that you can only judge yourself because you are aware of all the things you do whether they are good or bad, whether you have done that in public or secret, but again, can you guarantee for me that ALL what you is good 100%? are you a perfect being?
The point is, only someone who knows the hearts of human beings is capable of judging, God is the one, who is able to tell us what is good and what is bad, and who is good person and who is not because he knows our hearts.
I can go on and on to explain further what i mean but i don't want you to get bored from my long posts.
But of course, i wouldn't mind to explain this issue more, and elaborate if it was needed on the discussion to clarify my position because till now i'm just going straight to the point.
In the past, i had very rich discussions with many people and we were using scriptures, verses, exchanging books, articles, long posts, etc, and the religion or beliefs of the other person wasn't important to me because i enjoy talking and sharing information with intelligent and genuine people whether they had a religion or not. Those people had the time, patience and interest to know more in depth. Most of people on forums don't have the time for that, but some do. I myself don't have that much time usually, but i can leave everything on my hand to engage in fruitful discussions and with interesting people.
Only those who received the message properly will be held accountable, not those who weren't aware of it. Many scholars said those people will have a special test on the hereafter that is equavilant to the one we had here in this life.
As you can see, as we are going deeper in our discussions, we are revealing the core of these concepts step by step. Just keep asking.
I'm talking about the concept itself, because obviously they are not the same.
You are most welcome.
Can you elaborate please?
Why it's not fair? of course based on the answers i gave you above.
I'll wait for you.I think I will have to read those other forum posts before I ask about this, though.
As are you.
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We are basically talking about the same thing, but we are taking it from different angles. What i have said is the original concept and the punishment is just a result. Some people might call it punishment, some might call it fate, others might give it some other names too. When you talk about hell, of course you will have to talk about the punishments one might endure there, but when you talk about hell as a concept, it wouldn't be fair to talk about hell as a mere punishment. Got what i mean?
enchanted_one1975
Resident Lycanthrope
I don't believe in Allah or Hell. My Gods will judge me when the time comes. When one truly discovers the right path they do not have to wonder what fate befalls the misled.
JMorris
Democratic Socialist
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Tashan and DarkSun,
I appreciate the discussion that you are having now. However, is all this discussion necessary? Isn't eselam's question very, very simple? eselam asks:
Also, was my question about mercy answered? I asked:
I appreciate the discussion that you are having now. However, is all this discussion necessary? Isn't eselam's question very, very simple? eselam asks:
Q: why do you care if Allah was to send you to hell?
The question practically answers itself. Of course anyone would care IF they thought something terrible was about to happen to them. Would eselam care if the Christian God/Jesus/Holy Spirit was to send him to hell for not believing in Christ's sacrifice, without which his sins cannot be forgiven? Of course he would, if he thought it was true.
Also, was my question about mercy answered? I asked:
But if I had the power to do so, I would let everyone go to heaven, except maybe a short time in Hell for those who committed crimes, and the time in Hell would not be eternal, it would be in proportion to the crime. Having independent thoughts, or believing or disbelieving in any idea or religion, would not be a crime. So how is it possible that I, an imperfect human, am more merciful than Allah? Either there is no such thing as eternal hell for disbelievers, or Allah is not "Most Merciful".
I'll tell you the trick behind that question and i hope eselam won't hate me for ruining it. :foot:
Actually, eselam think--and i hope i'm right--that there is a fear shared by many non-Muslims and atheists especially, that what the Muslims say about hell and the life after death might be true, which means they have a slight doubt about their own beliefs. They still think there is a chance that Muslims are right about this whole hell issue. So, by using logic, if those people don't believe that hell or Allah exist, they shouldn't care about all of that because they believe it's not happening, it's a delusion, etc, right? So, if they are keeping complaining about how hell is unfair, then that means they have a doubt, that their unbelieve in Allah might be wrong.
Only Muslims who comitted crimes will enter hell for a while, then their believe in Allah will spare them at the end, but those who don't believe in Allah at all will stay in hell forever. But there is one scholar said that ALL people will evantually go to heaven even the non-Muslims, although they gonna stay there in hell for pretty long time. He concluded that hell will end up empty at the end, but only Allah knows that.
I think this part of your question is bigger than me because i asked myself this question so many times and i remmeber that i finally could find an answer, but i'm not sure about it because i didn't ask a scholar about that. Though, i'm still searching it more.
Your question is very logical. How can you, an imperfect human being be more merciful than Allah, who supposed to be more merciful than you?
If i were you, i would look for a deity which have a higher standard of mercy, logic, and morals than me, otherwise i won't believe in it.
One day i was on one of the prayers, not the personal prayer, but the one we perform together at the mosque. I was standing there, thinking about this same issue, how fair is it to punish good people who don't believe in Allah? I said to myself, Allah said that mercy was divided to 100 pieces, Allah spread one piece of it to all of his creatures, that's why mothers have mercy on their children, that's why aninals defend each other, and love each other, that's why we human do good and help each other. And he kept the other 99 parts for himself to use to have mercy on us.
Allah also said that he is more merciful to us than the mother to her child. How can he do that? then i started thinking outside the box, what am i? who am i? how i came to this planet? how i was born? how i got my body, bones, eyes, flesh and blood, even my soul, my mind, etc. If i were Allah, would i do the same as him?
Then i reached to an answer or a semi-answer as i call it--because i'm still thinking about this issue--i started thinking about weird stuff which i'll share here with the members for the first time, after i was keeping in it all for myself.
I said, imagine if i made some robots, do i have the right to terminate them and destroy them permanently without a reason? yes of course, i said to myself. To Allah, we are just like toys which he put souls into.
I asked again, imagine if i'm a mother who believe in abortion, would i let go of the baby? then the answer came, yes of course. The mother, who did absolutely nothing to get this child, she just had sex with a male and BINGO, she got pregnant, she is choosing to abandon this child for good, and no body will complain, it's her own child right? some might say.
Now, imagine with me if this so called Creator were the one who created this flesh and blood, bones, eyes, ears, hair, of this child. He gave this child the ability to grow by his own will. He gave him a soul. He gave him a mother to care for him, he gave him strength to grow and be an adult and if i talked about the things the creator did, i would write a book about it. The Creator sent prophets to guide people who went astray from his path. He sent them to take them from darkness into light. From ignorance into knowledge. If the Creator did all that, does he still have the right to destroy this child for instance in the womb of his mother "if he want" or not? you think after he did all of this, he deserve the denying and neglecting of this soul?
This Creator made it happen because he said Be then it been. How can he not end this life simply, or throw it away, or burn it, or bury it, or do whatever he want with it?
There would be a problem in the way we reach to our conclusions if we didn't give this Creator, God his proper place and his real role. He is not just a normal king who is waiting for you to obey him. He is the Creator of this entire universe. If you really started to think of him as the Creator of the entire universe and of all these great things we have in life, oh, if you really know who is God, you would start thinking how tiny and how selfish, and how ungrateful we are.
After you know what this God claim to be and he has done for us, then you can judge him.
Think about what i told you and tell me if i slightly could reach to an answer or even a semi-answer to your question, because it was my question too at the end of the day, and i'm still working on it. Do you think my reasoning is flawed somehow, or i'm on the right track?
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Gharib
I want Khilafah back
why does a rapist get years worth of jail for a crime that may have lasted about 10 minutes?
Gharib
I want Khilafah back
DarkSun
:eltiT
Years =/= eternity. Nothing warrants eternal pain.