Question for the Non-Muslims

[DarkSun]

My book says "the fire shall be focused on your genitals for 103 days". So you're wrong. And any book which states otherwise contains false information which must be struck down by anyone who does not want his genitals burned for 103 days. This book is never wrong, so don't make the mistake of ignoring it."

So your book is wrong.

Well, that convinced me.

I don't want my genitals burned, but I'm unsure about how to avoid this. Please advise.

 

[Breathe]

Q: why do you care if Allah was to send you to hell?

Nobody likes the idea of eternal suffering, I find people talking to me whilst holding the view 'you're going to burn in hell for not being the same religion as me' quite offensive, really.

To be honest, Islam and many mainstream Christian branches make God look like a petty tyrant King who will torture all who don't recognise his kingship and who don't submit to stroking his massive ego. He punishes them for eternity because they disagree with what he said.

I cannot understand why one would be able to believe this and hold the view that God is merciful when all evidence seems to points to the contrary.

To me, both the paradise and punishment mentioned are bad things as focus on the physical reward and punishment instead of becoming one with/close to God.

I mean no offence when I say this, but the God of Islam (and many Christian groups) have more characteristics of, and seem to be closer to being asuras than God.

 

[DarkSun]

This might turn to be a very good conversation. I really appreciate genuine discussions and genuine posts. Just so you know, i like your post alot, although i pretty much disagree with some of what you have said.

Regarding Eselam, i guess his main goal was to ask you some questions to think about. He wanted to know--for instance--if i'm not mistaken, why would an atheist care if there was Paradise and Hell if they don't even believe in the Creator himself and the hereafter in general.

Although the concept of Paradise and Hell are what people get to expect at the hereafter, but it would be a fatal mistake to assume that believers are doing good deeds just because they want to get a ticket to Paradise. I think there is a prejudice in thinking in that way.

For instance, when a non-Muslim do good because of his morals, personal beliefs, or just because he feels good about it, that means he took that thing as a motivator, or the source for this good doing. The same with Muslims, their source is the love of Allah, and the believe in what he encouraged--but didn't force--us to do.

There is a difference between being a Muslim, and being a believer "Mu'min". The later is a higher statues achieved through true belief in God, his Apostels, Books, etc.

It's good that humanity no matter what their faith is are doing good to each other, because Allah has stated in the Quran that if we didn't had that mercy amongst each other, earth would be really ruined. A non-Muslim is not someone bad by default, and a Muslim is not a good person by default.

The concept of obeying God, Paradise, Hell, is simple and yet complicated to grasp even by me sometimes, although i do believe in them.

Sometimes we oversimplify the position of religious people and why they take a certain stance, not another.

As a non-Muslim, whatever you might do, let's say a good thing you have done, it might change the lives of many people, and they might get a better life because of what you have done, and that might turn around to be for your own good (Karma?).

Anyhow, what we do in this life and our own simple scale of good and bad is not equal to that one of the hereafter.

What is your purpose in life? why you exist? why you think you are better than angels who never sin, who never do bad deeds? Why you think we came to this life? why you think there is an end to the life of each one of us?

There is something bigger than what we can see by our materialistic eyes. We have to see by our hearts first in order to see right.

Is our purpose in life is just to get a job, help some people, then die?

Or there is something bigger than that?

I can understand the level of sarcasm some might have toward concepts like Hell, and i know that many of you at some points of your lives, did believe in such a thing, then have abandoned it later on.

Just because we can't fully understand something, that doesn't give us the right to ridicule it.

What is good and what is bad? why do we have to obey a god? Why should we care? It's not even logical, some might say.

I do understand all these questions and i don't claim to know all the answers because it's a very big topic to handle in a single post. I think we will get some answers as we go in this thread.

I think one thing that I don't really understand at the moment is how a merciful God could send someone to a world of eternal pain, agony, fire and anguish... for ever. What crime could possibly warrant such a thing? What being could do such a thing to another being and still be loving, merciful and all-powerful? Perhaps you could help clear up this apparent contradiction?

 

[Metempsychosis]

To me, both the paradise and punishment mentioned are bad things as focus on the physical reward and punishment instead of becoming one with/close to God.

I mean no offence when I say this, but the God of Islam (and many Christian groups) have more characteristics of, and seem to be closer to being asuras than God.

Odion has brought back asura thingy .

 

[Breathe]

*hugs his asura thingy*

 

[challupa]

I think one thing that I don't really understand at the moment is how a merciful God could send someone to a world of eternal pain, agony, fire and anguish... for ever. What crime could possibly warrant such a thing? What being could do such a thing to another being and still be loving, merciful and all-powerful? Perhaps you could help clear up this apparent contradiction?

Yes, exactly! I need this one explained too. So far no one has done that to my satisfaction. The two are so contradictory in my eyes that is seems quite obvious to me that a being cannot be all merciful and also destine anything to eternal suffering! The two are not compatible!!

 

[challupa]

Well many considered the God of Judaism and the Bible to be a secondary god or demurige (sp?). So... that would make sense why that god would behave more like a petty tyrant of a king I suppose.

 

[Herr Heinrich]

using the example you have provided, i do agree that mentioning hell makes no sense. but your example is not compatible with Allah mentioning hell. hell is a creation and Allah is it's creator. just like all creators who create something, you would expect a manual or something that tells you the DO's and DON'T's. that's what Allah has done, he tells us the DO's and DON'T's. do this and you got to paradise, do that you go to hell. if he told us about paradise only and not hell, then it would be unfair to send someone to hell for making a wrong decision because we would never know that making a wrong decision leads to a punishment (ie. hell)

Wow. That was a very good explanation. You get frubals.

 

[Line Noise]

If I was to lend myself in name or of the way the question was asked, then perhaps it would be for the same reasons, no more or less, than I would care to be cast from any ties which bind me; be it condemned or abandoned.

But the question is one of unbelievers, I feel. And the question becomes of believers, still. And as either applies to me is just a question of theory in the evolution of belief.

I could be condemned for several other reasons or justifications with little to no room for debate as it applies to this scenario or others which share the unifying factors.

But there's little difference in my mind, which separates this from any authority, whether a sentence is just or unjust, my beliefs have little to do with it ... except for maybe ending up in a camp, be it internment or concentration. Or even a prison. Would I care because friends, family, other ties or even myself could end up in such a place based on little else than fitting a superficial profile.

And the amount of seething answers here suggest how much one would feel about it.

And as to why, I feel the same resentment applies. Of what makes a pebble weigh more than a boulder... how much is life and experience worth, even that of redemption, that avoiding the boulder means nothing compared to the pebble you're still carrying in your boot.

 

[gnostic]

What crime could possibly warrant such a thing?

I can think of number of them.

Murderers, rapists, and people who molest children.

The problem is what age when a child become adult. People have different opinion about the between childhood and adult. I think anyone under 16 is seriously underage. So any adult males marrying girls under 16 are indeed pedophiles and deserve hell as much as pedophiles who don't marry them. I think the excuse that girls mature quicker back whenever is full of B.S.

I DON'T think people who don't believe in the teachings of Moses, Jesus or Muhammad deserve hell.

What is the use of FREE WILL, if you can't believe...or disbelieve...whatever you want. Is really a crime or sin not to believe in god?

Some people need something more concrete to believe in something than rely on belief or faith alone. I certainly need something more than scriptures written by superstition people, who claim to be prophets or saints.

So eternally punishing people for believing in something else, or nothing whatsoever, is really NOT JUST. Only a tyrant of a god will resort these sorts of coercision to make people believe and worship a worthless deity.

 

[DarkSun]

I can think of number of them.

Murderers, rapists, and people who molest children.

The problem is what age when a child become adult. People have different opinion about the between childhood and adult. I think anyone under 16 is seriously underage. So any adult males marrying girls under 16 are indeed pedophiles and deserve hell as much as pedophiles who don't marry them. I think the excuse that girls mature quicker back whenever is full of B.S.

I DON'T think people who don't believe in the teachings of Moses, Jesus or Muhammad deserve hell.

What is the use of FREE WILL, if you can't believe...or disbelieve...whatever you want. Is really a crime or sin not to believe in god?

Some people need something more concrete to believe in something than rely on belief or faith alone. I certainly need something more than scriptures written by superstition people, who claim to be prophets or saints.

So eternally punishing people for believing in something else, or nothing whatsoever, is really NOT JUST. Only a tyrant of a god will resort these sorts of coercision to make people believe and worship a worthless deity.

See, I disagree that murderers, rapists and pedophiles deserve to go to hell for eternity. Maybe some people would say that they deserve to go to hell for a finite time, to ensure that justice is met, but while I can relate with this view a bit more, even I don't completely agree with that. If these people are going to be tortured as a form of payback, for whatever period of time, from the way I'm looking at things, only a sick, disgusting, sadistic, depraved and spiteful God who wreaks of human flaw would do such a thing. I still don't see how any perfect, loving, compassionate and merciful being could do that. Could someone please help me out with this?

 

[JMorris]

See, I disagree that murderers, rapists and pedophiles deserve to go to hell for eternity. Maybe some people would say that they deserve to go to hell for a finite time, to ensure that justice is met, but while I can relate with this view a bit more, even I don't completely agree with that. If these people are going to be tortured as a form of payback, for whatever period of time, from the way I'm looking at things, only a sick, disgusting, sadistic, depraved and spiteful God who wreaks of human flaw would do such a thing. I still don't see how any perfect, loving, compassionate and merciful being could do that. Could someone please help me out with this?

i agree. id think it would be obvious that a "loving, forgiving god" would be more "loving & forgiving" than your average person...........
id also think itd be obvious that hell was a human invention. who else would think some deed so evil that it deserves never ending torture & pain in return? one would think a "loving & forgiving god" to be able to come up with something else.....

 

[TashaN]

That I don't deny. I do agree with you here.

Desire and fear are 2 different things, and unrelated to each other.

But what eselam doesn't understand is that DESIRE can have either positive or negative emotion or effect (or even both), depending on motive in which you DESIRE.

It is not wrong to desire, unless it is desire out of envy, lust or greed.

Do you do something for reward, or simply because it need to be done without condition? One is for selfish reason, and the other is not.

Someone already given an example, but I will write it in my way.

Desire can be like to desire to possess something. This is not necessarily negative to want something that you desire, unless it become excessive, which will turn that desire into greed - which is the desire to possess more.

Desire can also turn into lust or envy/jealousy, too. Without desire, you can't have love. But love and desire to be with someone can turn into jealousy.

As someone pointed out already to eselam, you can do good for someone with 2 possible motives.

• You can do good, like give something that you have to less fortunate, and do not expect anything in return, and not for reward from God.
• Or you can give something to someone less fortunate than you, but at the same expect god to reward you for your kind and generous act.

Both of the above examples are each an act of charity and generosity, but there is a huge difference between the 2 acts of generosity.

The 1st example is of truly noble act of charity, because you don't expect something in return from someone or from god. The 2nd is more done out of selfish motive and self-interest, because he expect something in return for his act of kindness. The person is doing for a reward from God or Allah; a reward that supposedly eternal life and to live in heaven, to be near god.

Eselam originally replied to Riverwolf in post 205 with this.


Now, this is where he call me willful ignorant, because I said to want something (hence the DESIRE), like eternal life and reward from god, than anything you in this life is considered "selfish", because you are doing it for yourself, such as the act of generosity.

You desire and want reward,then wouldn't that be done out of "greed"?

You desire and want eternal life, then isn't your act motivated by self-interest?

If wanting earthly or material gains be considered selfish and greedy now, then wouldn't wanting spiritual gains (eg rewards) be considered equally selfish.

Do you understand what I am getting at?

Eselam certainly don't get what I am trying to say.

Fear is different matter, altogether, because it has nothing to do with desire or its baser quality of desire (eg greed, jealousy, envy or lust).

I agree with you in some points. Whatever you have said make sense only--and only--if the conditions you have put were correct.

Just so you know, as i explained before, Muslims don't do good just because they want to get to heaven. They do it because they genuinely love to do good to their fellow human beings. You also have to know that helping others is not one of the requirements to enter heaven. It's something volunteery, and God always guide us to do good for our fellow human beings because this was what we been created for.

Although an athiest might not understand the motivation behind this good he is doing, or why he thought to do it on the first place, but that wouldn't mean he didn't feel it was right. Muslims knows why they are doing this good but athiests for instance would do it because it feels right to them. Muslims wouldn't do it to get a free ticket to heaven, but because this is what we were created for.

Yes, the purpose of creation, it came down to this issue. The difference between the Muslims and Atheists for instance is that Muslims know why we are here, why we care to do all of this!

I once wrote about the creation issue and the purpose behind it, and i hope it will be useful to some of you. It's a bit long but it's really important to read it all because reading some of it wouldn't make that much sense. Please read post # 208 & 209 in the thread at the link below:

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...3-quran-infallable-word-god-6.html#post578111

 

[TashaN]

I think one thing that I don't really understand at the moment is how a merciful God could send someone to a world of eternal pain, agony, fire and anguish... for ever. What crime could possibly warrant such a thing? What being could do such a thing to another being and still be loving, merciful and all-powerful? Perhaps you could help clear up this apparent contradiction?

It's not a contradiction, it's a misunderstanding for the concept. The concept of heaven and hell is not something which been created for us. Heaven and Hell were created before us with ages. God didn't set them up for us. We weren't meant to enter hell on the first place "as a theory" because Adam and Eve were living in heaven--please assume that you believe in that story for the sake of the argument. Yes, as you know they were living there, and because we had to come to earth on a "temporary mission" that was explained in my previous post, so we have to go there again, to out eternal living which Adam and Eve were enjoying before going down to earth.

That's what we Muslims believe in, and i don't want to force you to accept it, but all what i ask you here is just to listen and try to understand the concept so you could understand where we are coming from.

So, this eternal living whether in heaven or hell can't be seen as a reward and punishment, but more as going back home, either in our great house, or our bad house, depending on the trip we made and after making up our minds. You have to choose whether to enjoy on your trip without limits then go back to a bad peremenant house, or to follow all the instructions to go back home safely without any injuries or regrets.

This life is not the purpose of our living, but we are here just for a short trip as i have explained before, and the hereafter is where we are going back home finally to live forever, not to be punished for ever. Some people would choose to live a good eternal life in heaven, and others would choose to mess things up then end up in hell.

God is merciful, but why?

Although he can put us in hell for no reason, just for the heck of it, he didn't do it. He created us and he can do with us whatever he want. We are living because he gave us souls, and he can take it whenever he want. Rather than sending us to hell, as an eternal home, he gave us the chance to have a great life on earth, then come back to him and enter to heaven. Not only that, he also sent so many prophets to warn us, and guide us all to the truth. He is merciful because he made equal, which means that whatever defect or problems one had, God would make it up to him/her either in this life or the other life.

Only insane people would say that this life is fair. Why you were born in the West and others are dying in Africa? are you saying this is fair and it's "unfortunate for them" as someone in RF told me once. Unfortunate for them? how can a decent man think in this way.

We know better than to assume that we are living in a fair world. What some might not understand is that this life is a test for us, to see whether a rich man gonna give to the poor or not, whether we would do good or not. In Islam, when we think of rich people, we say God gave them this wealth as a responsibility, not because they got lucky!

"Fortunate people" should know that they will be accountable for what they do and how they deal with "unfortunate people". This is what i believe in.

I'm willing to share more with you because i like your reasoning and i really respect your views and your posts in general. You even push me to think harder about what i already believe in.


Peace and blessings,
Faisal

 

[nameless]

i'll get the statement which i think answeres your question.

eselam, did you forget this one?

 

[Gharib]

eselam, did you forget this one?

oh yeah, i'll check it out now.

 

[Gharib]

for nameless

Why is the punishment of unbelieving in Allah is staying in Hell forever?

The word unbelief is the opposite of faith. The world of the unbeliever is full of darkness. Because unbelief severs man’s connection with Allah. A person severing his relation with Allah lives in the darkness both in his heart, in his spirit and also in his mind. The Qur’an describes the world of the unbeliever as follows:


“Or (the Unbelievers' state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean, overwhelmed with billow topped by billow, topped by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above another: if a man stretches out his hand, he can hardly see it!” (the Qur’an, The Light (An-Nur); 40 (24: 40))


Unbelief is an insult towards all being things because every living thing worships Allah. Every one of them is a dominical letter, a mirror to the glory of Allah and a servant of Allah. Since unbelief veils those aspects and reduces them to the level of futility and being the playthings of chance, it is an infinite crime and it necessitates an infinite punishment.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

for nameless

Why is the punishment of unbelieving in Allah is staying in Hell forever?

The word unbelief is the opposite of faith. The world of the unbeliever is full of darkness. Because unbelief severs man’s connection with Allah. A person severing his relation with Allah lives in the darkness both in his heart, in his spirit and also in his mind. The Qur’an describes the world of the unbeliever as follows:


“Or (the Unbelievers' state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean, overwhelmed with billow topped by billow, topped by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above another: if a man stretches out his hand, he can hardly see it!” (the Qur’an, The Light (An-Nur); 40 (24: 40))


Unbelief is an insult towards all being things because every living thing worships Allah. Every one of them is a dominical letter, a mirror to the glory of Allah and a servant of Allah. Since unbelief veils those aspects and reduces them to the level of futility and being the playthings of chance, it is an infinite crime and it necessitates an infinite punishment.

The more I hear about this mythology the more hideous it sounds.

It is sad that seemingly intelligent people actually BELIEVE this carp.

 

[Gharib]

The more I hear about this mythology the more hideous it sounds.

It is sad that seemingly intelligent people actually BELIEVE this carp.

it's actually sad that seemingly intelligent people don't believe in it.

 

[Kerr]

it's actually sad that seemingly intelligent people don't believe in it.

Except you are wrong. I know people without any gods who I would never say lived in a world full with darkness. The idea that without faith there is nothing, that faith somehow is your only chance of becoming a good person, is flawed, irrational and unrealistic.