Question for the Non-Muslims

[Herr Heinrich]

you wouldn't be a muslim in the first place if you didn't believe in hell and paradise.

Allah is not threatining anyone. he only tells/warns us of where our actions will lead us. hell has different kinds of punishments for different kinds of actions/deeds, same with paradise. god is only telling us which path leads to where. how can that be a threat when he is in no need of us?

I definitely see it as a threat. I am sorry if I do not see eternal damnation as a kind suggestion to be good. And why does God have no need of us? Why did he create us in the first place?

 

[YmirGF]

It just seems so obvious...

You see, that is what I don't understand either. I am continually amazed that some Muslims cannot see this. In theory it is something a small child could comprehend.

 

[YmirGF]

I definitely see it as a threat. I am sorry if I do not see eternal damnation as a kind suggestion to be good. And why does God have no need of us? Why did he create us in the first place?

As best as I can determine, according to Islam, we were created to worship god. Somehow this is rationalized to cover the fact that god doesn't need anything. Frankly, it smacks of a rather unhealthy dependency relationship.

 

[gnostic]

please go educate yourself first then come and post, i can't deal with that level of willfull ignorance.

Are you saying that "desire" has nothing to do with "greed", "lust" or even "envy".

You said it yourself, Muslims (and Christians) desire to be in heaven, be near god, receive reward and gain eternal life. It all has to do with greed and lust, and of course, the fear of death. Nothing more and nothing less. But in the end, it just wishful thinking.

Instead of looking for meaning in the fairyland and non-existent supreme fairy, try looking for meaning in your own life.

If you want to live in a delusion, then by all mean go ahead. I wish you eternal life and 70 or more virgins, but just know that what it is - just "wishing".

 

[Gharib]

I definitely see it as a threat. I am sorry if I do not see eternal damnation as a kind suggestion to be good. And why does God have no need of us? Why did he create us in the first place?

he created us because he is a creator, a limitless, powerfull being. our ancestors used to life just fine without cars, but even though we are dependent on them we can still manage without them, the difference between us and god in this case is that we have limits, god doesn't, so he doesn't need a car to make his existence any easier, we just create for the sake of creation most of the time, like a painting for example, it does nothing to us but we just paint. same with our creation. god wanted to create us, so he did.

and to be a muslim means to love Allah rather than be threatened by the hell fire. no one could ever possibly follow someone whole heartedly due to a threat, but instead due to love. lets say for example you are treatened by hell, so what do you do? you say i don't believe in that god nor that hell. but if you believe that that god exists and he is not threatining anyone, you do not care much about hell, because Allah says i promise etternal paradise to my obedient searvent.

 

[Gharib]

I see you have an amply supply of irony pills on hand.

you want some?

BTW, you have still have not answered my question. Are YOU afraid the christian god will send YOU to hell for rejecting him? If not, why not?

When have an answer you will know why I have no fear of your allah thingy sending ME anywhere.

the author of the unchanged bible is Allah, the christian god whom the christians say is Jesus (as) can do no such thing nor can Muhamed (saws), humans do not have limitless power, i do not fear Jesus (as), he was just a man. i do not fear men.

 

[Gharib]

What makes Paradise Paradise?

everything in it.

do you want to read about the islamic concept of paradise?

 

[nameless]

eselam, you did not responded to post 204

the link you gave me say only why the suffering in the hell is never ending.

My question was why the period of suffering for the same crime differs in hell. The link you gave me has nothing to say about that.

Or you can quote the statement from that website here explaining why it differs punishment duration in hell and here.

 

[Gharib]

It is rather difficult for us Atheists to debate this kind of thread, which no doubt begs the question: "Why are you posting here then?" Sigh ... I am a post whore!

There is a heaven or nirvana only if you believe there is and there is a hell only if you believe there is. Which is not to say that many many millions of Christians who believe in God and many many Muslims who believe in Allah are wrong.

I must say that based on my experience, given the choice with a gun to my head, I would not choose Islam or Christianity.

this life exists only to those who believe it exists :areyoucra, you exist only to those who think you exist :areyoucra, a burning sun exists only to those who believe it exists :areyoucra. please say the sun doesn't exist, it will make alot of things very easy.

 

[Gharib]

eselam, you did not responded to post 204

i'll get the statement which i think answeres your question.

 

[Gharib]

And who can be more proud than those who state with knowledge who is and is not going to heaven and hell.

if you are directing this at me, then please show me where i have said that anyone is going to hell if you are truthfull.

 

[Copernicus]

and to be a muslim means to love Allah rather than be threatened by the hell fire. no one could ever possibly follow someone whole heartedly due to a threat, but instead due to love. lets say for example you are treatened by hell, so what do you do? you say i don't believe in that god nor that hell. but if you believe that that god exists and he is not threatining anyone, you do not care much about hell, because Allah says i promise etternal paradise to my obedient searvent.

What makes your statements so clearly disingenuous is your admission that "no one could ever possibly follow someone wholeheartedly due to a threat". You must therefore try to establish that your religion's hell is not a threat. If it is, then you have committed blasphemy, because you have admitted that no one could ever possibly follow Allah. But everyone can see through the pretense that hell is not a threat. Of course it is. God sends people there who fail the "test" that you are always going on about. And part of what it means to fail is to reject belief in Allah. According to you, people have to make a free choice in life, and, if they fail to choose correctly, then, as the Quran tells us, they go to hell. You and Allah can tap-dance around it all you like, but the threat is quite obvious for all to see. Hell is clearly a place that any sane person would seek to avoid.

 

[Alceste]

the author of the unchanged bible is Allah, the christian god whom the christians say is Jesus (as) can do no such thing nor can Muhamed (saws), humans do not have limitless power, i do not fear Jesus (as), he was just a man. i do not fear men.

Try this and tell me how it goes:

Think about your certainty that Jesus was just a man, and did not have limitless power. Think about your lack of fear of men. Think about your certainty that men wrote the Bible, and that it is full of errors, and that Christianity is a false religion.

Now imagine you are somebody else. Me for example. You grew up in another part of the world and have never seen the inside of a mosque. Keep that feeling of fearless certainty that Jesus was not God and Christianity is nonsense smoldering away in the background, because I feel exactly the same way.

Now swap out Jesus for Mohammed, the Bible for the Koran, etc.

Voila.

If you managed to do that, then you understand me.

 

[challupa]

Eselam, you say you love Allah and follow him whole heartedly because you love him not because you fear the threat of hell. However, you also have said many times that you do not know if you are going to paradise. If I believed in Allah and knew he provides hell for those who don't make the grade, I would be scared. That is why I feel so sad for those who have bought into the heaven and hell concept. It must be incredibly scary to believe that and at the same time not know where you will end up on judgement day. I totally reject a god that puts his creation through that kind of uncertainty.

 

[gnostic]

There are only 2 main reasons why you would follow a religion, like Islam and Christianity, and both have to do with fear.

• The fear of dying, or death, and the possibility of no afterlife.
• And the fear of hell.

With the later, the fear of punishment should be judge unworthy, and suffer eternal torment in hell.

The former, is the quest for eternal life and even the fountain of youth, has been in the mind of men since the beginning of civilisation.

Gilgamesh was a hero, a warrior with a goddess for a mother, so he was demi-god - half god, half man, and there was no other like him, until Enkidu appeared. The 2nd part of the myth of Gilgamesh is about a man's quest for immortality. Since the death of his best friend and blood brother, Enkidu, Gilgamesh felt fear for the 1st time, especially the fear of death. So began his journey that took him to the other side of the world, where he met Utnapishtim.

Utnapishtim was known by his older name, Atrahasis in Old Babylonian, and even older name, Ziusudra in Sumerian. Utnapishtim, or whatever his name may be was the original Flood hero, hence the original Noah, which the Genesis copied and adapted to their Creation Myth. According to all 3 versions on the myth of the flood hero, Utnapishtim or whatever his may be, was given immortality by the gods, hence he is a god.

Gilgamesh asked for immortality, but he failed a test, so no eternal life for him, however Utnapishtim did give him a gift, a food that will restore his youth. But that gift was deprived from him too, because in his journey home, the swallowed the food of youth, while he was distracted.

In older Judaic religion before the Hellenistic influence, there were no such thing as hell being a place of eternal torment. There were no heaven as a place of afterlife. Heaven was place which the god live, and no mortals aspired to live there. All souls went to Sheol. Sheol was not the Christian/Islamic hell, it was not a place of joy or anguish, or of pleasure or pain.

The idea of living in heaven and hell after death was a Greek concept. Christianity have based their concept of afterlife on the late Hellenistic Judaism, as is Islam.

There's no doubt in my mind that Islam copy Christian religion and doctrine, but gave it an Arabic flavour. Muhammad is simply just a model of Abraham, Moses and Jesus rolled into one. There's nothing unique about Muhammad as a prophet, except that he was Arabic one.

 

[Riverwolf]

everything in it.

do you want to read about the islamic concept of paradise?

If you could provide a brief explanation in your own words, that'd be great.

 

[Herr Heinrich]

and to be a muslim means to love Allah rather than be threatened by the hell fire. no one could ever possibly follow someone whole heartedly due to a threat[/COLOR], but instead due to love. lets say for example you are treatened by hell, so what do you do? you say i don't believe in that god nor that hell. but if you believe that that god exists and he is not threatining anyone, you do not care much about hell, because Allah says i promise etternal paradise to my obedient searvent.

I don't understand why he adds the threat though. Can't he just be happy with the love? I mean that is like a wife telling her husband who was faithful to her and loved her with all his heart that if he ever cheated on her she would cut of his willie. It doesn't make sense.

 

[gnostic]

I have been away for couple of months because I have been rather busy.

It would seem that when I put in valid questions or views on the threads of late, the last couple of Muslims have not been able to answer them.

please go educate yourself first then come and post, i can't deal with that level of willfull ignorance.

Fatihah claimed to have done "scientific research", but when quizz about what type of "scientific research", first by skydivephil, and then by me, I get him trying to evade questions, claiming it is not relevant to the topic.

And now, eselam is doing the same thing with me. Avoiding my question, with unhelpful get "educated" and saying I am being "willfully ignorant".

He view that is better to seek spiritual gains than earthly material gains, but that material gains is essential to live in this life. I can understand that. Especially if you seeking material gains and desire for the sake of itself. To my mind, seeking gains for itself, can often lead to greed, lust and envy. I can understand what he is saying, because it is a selfish desire.

But he said that seeking gain for spiritual reward, to live in heaven and hence live for eternity with God.

a muslims desire is to be with Allah, his prophet and to be rewarded with paradise, it is etternal, we choose it over the material things, although without the material things we would not be able to live our lives, so both are important to us.

Is not desiring reward in paradise suggests "greed"?

Is not desiring to live forever to be "selfish"?

I wrote in post 208:

Are you saying that desiring material thing to be "selfish"?

Aren't you being even more "selfish" when you are desiring "eternal life" and "reward"?

You want immortality. You want eternal life. You want reward. You want 70 virgins. You want to be near Allah.

This sounds like a gimme, gimme, gimme greed and lust, no different and certainly no better than a person desiring material or if you like earthly rewards or gains. Sounds a lot more selfish and greedy.

I have never desire long life, let alone immortality or eternal life. I have no desire for rewards in heaven. And I certainly have no desire to be acquainted with a selfish, bloodthirsty tyrant of a god, that demands worship or get thrown to hell.

As far as I can tell neither heaven or hell, nor your god exist.

Aren't these relevant questions?

Perhaps, the way I have presented my questions and view, especially the last 2 paragraphs, is the reason why he refused to answer my questions.

 

[Gharib]

Try this and tell me how it goes:

Think about your certainty that Jesus was just a man, and did not have limitless power. Think about your lack of fear of men. Think about your certainty that men wrote the Bible, and that it is full of errors, and that Christianity is a false religion.

Now imagine you are somebody else. Me for example. You grew up in another part of the world and have never seen the inside of a mosque. Keep that feeling of fearless certainty that Jesus was not God and Christianity is nonsense smoldering away in the background, because I feel exactly the same way.

Now swap out Jesus for Mohammed, the Bible for the Koran, etc.

Voila.

If you managed to do that, then you understand me.

Muhamed (saws) doesn't give punishments, he is only a man, not god. same with Jesus (as). and i said that the unchanged bible was from Allah i never said it was written by man, but it does have alterations.

 

[Gharib]

Eselam, you say you love Allah and follow him whole heartedly because you love him not because you fear the threat of hell. However, you also have said many times that you do not know if you are going to paradise. If I believed in Allah and knew he provides hell for those who don't make the grade, I would be scared. That is why I feel so sad for those who have bought into the heaven and hell concept. It must be incredibly scary to believe that and at the same time not know where you will end up on judgement day. I totally reject a god that puts his creation through that kind of uncertainty.

the reason why i'm saying that is because one day i may leave islam, no one knows for certain appart from Allah, but i would not want to leave islam i want to live as a muslim and die as one. no one knows the future appart from god, you are a non muslim, but i can't say you will go to hell because you may end up accepting islam in the future and no one knows if that will happen appart from Allah.