Gharib
I want Khilafah back
i never said either of those.
your post is not correct because i never said what you have written. how can i reply to that?
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Question for the Non-Muslims
- Thread starter Gharib
- Start date
i never said either of those.
your post is not correct because i never said what you have written. how can i reply to that?
nameless
The Creator
Gharib
I want Khilafah back
doing it in my own words would be a bit hard because it's not like i can say much in a few sentences.
here is a link that explains it in brief, i think that's not too long.
there are 5 pages to it Paradise - an Islamic Point of View of Heaven - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com
gnostic
The Lost One
No silly boy.eselam said:
I am the one asking you these questions?
Desire can be both good and bad.
When you desire you are close to being greedy or envious, esp when you cross the line. Greed, lust and envy come from an even more basic instinct - "desire".
If you are after eternal life and reward for yourself, then I think it is for selfish reason.
Okay, I see. I am not sure, but am I correct in understanding that you have no fear of hell as long as you remain a muslim?
Thanks.
None of that holds much interest for me, and suffering can end here on earth. Events don't cause suffering, they cause pain. Pain and suffering are two different things.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
This is the kind of thing that religionists post with a straight face. Stop and think. Can't you see how utterly empty a statement like this is?
And they say: "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days:" Say: "Have ye taken a promise from God, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of God what ye do not know?" (Quran 2:80)
MSizer
MSizer
My book says "the fire shall be focused on your genitals for 103 days". So you're wrong. And any book which states otherwise contains false information which must be struck down by anyone who does not want his genitals burned for 103 days. This book is never wrong, so don't make the mistake of ignoring it."
So your book is wrong.
This might turn to be a very good conversation. I really appreciate genuine discussions and genuine posts. Just so you know, i like your post alot, although i pretty much disagree with some of what you have said.
Regarding Eselam, i guess his main goal was to ask you some questions to think about. He wanted to know--for instance--if i'm not mistaken, why would an atheist care if there was Paradise and Hell if they don't even believe in the Creator himself and the hereafter in general.
Although the concept of Paradise and Hell are what people get to expect at the hereafter, but it would be a fatal mistake to assume that believers are doing good deeds just because they want to get a ticket to Paradise. I think there is a prejudice in thinking in that way.
For instance, when a non-Muslim do good because of his morals, personal beliefs, or just because he feels good about it, that means he took that thing as a motivator, or the source for this good doing. The same with Muslims, their source is the love of Allah, and the believe in what he encouraged--but didn't force--us to do.
There is a difference between being a Muslim, and being a believer "Mu'min". The later is a higher statues achieved through true belief in God, his Apostels, Books, etc.
It's good that humanity no matter what their faith is are doing good to each other, because Allah has stated in the Quran that if we didn't had that mercy amongst each other, earth would be really ruined. A non-Muslim is not someone bad by default, and a Muslim is not a good person by default.
The concept of obeying God, Paradise, Hell, is simple and yet complicated to grasp even by me sometimes, although i do believe in them.
Sometimes we oversimplify the position of religious people and why they take a certain stance, not another.
As a non-Muslim, whatever you might do, let's say a good thing you have done, it might change the lives of many people, and they might get a better life because of what you have done, and that might turn around to be for your own good (Karma?).
Anyhow, what we do in this life and our own simple scale of good and bad is not equal to that one of the hereafter.
What is your purpose in life? why you exist? why you think you are better than angels who never sin, who never do bad deeds? Why you think we came to this life? why you think there is an end to the life of each one of us?
There is something bigger than what we can see by our materialistic eyes. We have to see by our hearts first in order to see right.
Is our purpose in life is just to get a job, help some people, then die?
Or there is something bigger than that?
I can understand the level of sarcasm some might have toward concepts like Hell, and i know that many of you at some points of your lives, did believe in such a thing, then have abandoned it later on.
Just because we can't fully understand something, that doesn't give us the right to ridicule it.
What is good and what is bad? why do we have to obey a god? Why should we care? It's not even logical, some might say.
I do understand all these questions and i don't claim to know all the answers because it's a very big topic to handle in a single post. I think we will get some answers as we go in this thread.
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Beaudreaux
Well-Known Member
No.
I have never experienced a single thing in my entire life that leads me to believe that Allah is anything more than a figment of man's imagination.
Fear is not the correct answer here. There should be a balance between fear and desire. We all have desires and fear, and it's part of us, human beings, whether we like it or not.
zenzero
Its only a Label
Friend eselam,
Firstly there needs to be someone present to *care* as am on the journey to find that*self* cannot *care* besides personally both the words i.e. *allah* and *hell* are labels for some understanding as know no such person or place that exists in the physical world. Each label has meaning only to the extent the user's own mapping of those labels.
If you are serious to know then suggest clarify the image and map of the place and person you speak about to be sent etc.
Love & rgds
Firstly there needs to be someone present to *care* as am on the journey to find that*self* cannot *care* besides personally both the words i.e. *allah* and *hell* are labels for some understanding as know no such person or place that exists in the physical world. Each label has meaning only to the extent the user's own mapping of those labels.
If you are serious to know then suggest clarify the image and map of the place and person you speak about to be sent etc.
Love & rgds
Gharib
I want Khilafah back
using the example you have provided, i do agree that mentioning hell makes no sense. but your example is not compatible with Allah mentioning hell. hell is a creation and Allah is it's creator. just like all creators who create something, you would expect a manual or something that tells you the DO's and DON'T's. that's what Allah has done, he tells us the DO's and DON'T's. do this and you got to paradise, do that you go to hell. if he told us about paradise only and not hell, then it would be unfair to send someone to hell for making a wrong decision because we would never know that making a wrong decision leads to a punishment (ie. hell)
gnostic
The Lost One
That I don't deny. I do agree with you here.tashaN said:
Desire and fear are 2 different things, and unrelated to each other.
But what eselam doesn't understand is that DESIRE can have either positive or negative emotion or effect (or even both), depending on motive in which you DESIRE.
It is not wrong to desire, unless it is desire out of envy, lust or greed.
Do you do something for reward, or simply because it need to be done without condition? One is for selfish reason, and the other is not.
Someone already given an example, but I will write it in my way.
Desire can be like to desire to possess something. This is not necessarily negative to want something that you desire, unless it become excessive, which will turn that desire into greed - which is the desire to possess more.
Desire can also turn into lust or envy/jealousy, too. Without desire, you can't have love. But love and desire to be with someone can turn into jealousy.
As someone pointed out already to eselam, you can do good for someone with 2 possible motives.
- You can do good, like give something that you have to less fortunate, and do not expect anything in return, and not for reward from God.
- Or you can give something to someone less fortunate than you, but at the same expect god to reward you for your kind and generous act.
The 1st example is of truly noble act of charity, because you don't expect something in return from someone or from god. The 2nd is more done out of selfish motive and self-interest, because he expect something in return for his act of kindness. The person is doing for a reward from God or Allah; a reward that supposedly eternal life and to live in heaven, to be near god.
Eselam originally replied to Riverwolf in post 205 with this.
eselam said:
Now, this is where he call me willful ignorant, because I said to want something (hence the DESIRE), like eternal life and reward from god, than anything you in this life is considered "selfish", because you are doing it for yourself, such as the act of generosity.
You desire and want reward,then wouldn't that be done out of "greed"?
You desire and want eternal life, then isn't your act motivated by self-interest?
If wanting earthly or material gains be considered selfish and greedy now, then wouldn't wanting spiritual gains (eg rewards) be considered equally selfish.
Do you understand what I am getting at?
Eselam certainly don't get what I am trying to say.
Fear is different matter, altogether, because it has nothing to do with desire or its baser quality of desire (eg greed, jealousy, envy or lust).
Amill
Apikoros
You shouldn't do wrong things because they are wrong, not because you are afraid to go to hell. If you think it's unfair for bad people to get punished when they weren't warned, then surely you should find it unfair when good people get punished because the religious claims weren't good enough to convince that person?
The only thing I like about hell is the fact that it probably does stop some people from doing bad things. Otherwise, it's main use is to scare people into believing the stories and following. The idea of hell is more for unbelievers than it is bad people because there are natural consequences in this world for doing harmful things to other people and because we have the ability to empathize with people that we have a connection with or can relate to. The fear of hell doesn't have a ton of impact on people's morality.
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Copernicus
Industrial Strength Linguist
The jails are full of people who believe in God, and some of those who have deep religious convictions have actually committed horrible crimes that they would not otherwise commit, but for their religious beliefs. (The 9/11 mass murderers are a good example.) So belief in heaven or hell is not necessarily a deterrent to crime, and it may actually promote evil behavior. The real incentive for people not to commit evil is fear of being caught and punished by secular authorities.