Question on Intelligent Design

[Polymath257]

Answer the question: Does your consciousness extends beyond your skull? A simple question you continue to skirt around.

how about an answer?

NO

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Does vastness determine Special? I think not. One might experience awe at the surroundings, however aren't the action players really the ones who make the story?

There is a very good reason space has great distances. It limits interaction of some until a certain level of knowledge is acquired. It simply prevents a mess.

OK, I want you to do something for me. I want you to go to a comfortable dark room with no distractions. Relax, close your eyes and focus inward. When you get really focused, I want you to say to yourself. It's Me.

It's important you discover who you really are. It's Me. Are you really part of this physical world? There is so much sensory input from this physical world, it's easy to assume the physical is all there is. Discover who you really are.

You have allowed religion to corrupt your thinking. Does sin really exist? Of course not. There are only choices.

I once told you that God was knowledge and intelligence and that God's choices were intelligent. Ask yourself. Is the final judgment day that religion describes really an intelligent way? It's a mess. It also values petty things like hate, revenge, judging, condemning and hurting, threatening in order to attempt to control the actions of others. Does that really sound smart? Of course not.

AS I see it God is at a Higher Level. The only thing that matters will be the results. Don't hate one for their choices; teach them what their choices really mean. When one acquires enough knowledge and wisdom, one will make the best choices. If the end result creates one who makes the best choices, there is no need for all those petty and really not intelligence choices religion wants to exist.

As I see it, God is Unconditional Love. Why? Think about it. It is the most intelligent way to be. Unconditional Love does what is best for the other. Is frying your kids without the possibility of redemption really best for them? Of course not!

Adversity breeds invention. If there were no problems, we would all just sit back and enjoy the ride. Look how much knowledge mankind has acquired through the existence of disease. When cancer is cured, a new disease will pop up to take it's place. Mankind will be set up for the next lesson to learn.

It's all about knowledge and intelligence. The struggle to attain knowledge does bring rewards. For now, you might be lost in chaos, however effort to discover does bring rewards regardless of how impossible it seems. Example: Mankind's only medicine at one time were leeches. Mankind was lost in so many ways. The effort to discover leads us all forward. The rewards of knowledge are within everyone's grasp in some form. I have to believe that with a system so based in knowledge.

What is the first thing a wise man realizes once he truly becomes wise? The first thing a wise man realizes once he truly becomes wise is that there is so much more to learn. I cry that. Admitting once ignorance does not count. what counts is working to do something about it.

AS I see it, we all know God. We have all experienced God's Unconditional Love that heals all hurt. As I see it, this has spoiled us to the extent that we all want to have it made. AS I see it, the reality and purpose of this world is not to have it made. The purpose is for our education through our free choices. We learn through the parameters of our lives, our choices and interactions. The dynamics are amazing. The intelligence needed for the system is through the roof. It is a Masterpiece!!!

Worry not. For no matter what happens, as I see it God has fixed it all ahead of time. It will be just a short time we will all be spoiled back into God's arms. As I see it, it is a Love we would do anything for.

Children do have growing pains at times but that won't prevent them from finally growing up. One should never give up easily for we are all much more capable than we realize.

I don't see it that way. I don't understand intelligence and that doesn't mean I lost out on something. You see intelligence and that doesn't mean you lost out on something (we both said). It just means we see different views god and no god included.

With god, if I defined him (it), it's an experience of wholesomeness and gratitude for life. It's our culture (even if we don't think we have one), it's our values, and it's our beliefs. It's what makes us who we are. The spirit of life is an active spirit that keeps us moving, keeps our hearts pumping, our brains working, and so forth. It's a beautiful outlet of connections

but I wouldn't call it intelligences and design sounds new age. If I took myself out of the picture, I'd assume (since I'm not a plant or animal) that plants, animals, and all natural life and things like rocks do it's own thing. There isn't an order just as our bodies do not have an order-if it did, it wouldn't create it's own diseases and it would age nor decay. Our bodies are made to keep functioning until we can't function anymore.

That's enlightenment. When you go into a dark room yourself and put god aside for a minute and just think "I am not special" and really say to yourself I am not special you put yourself with the vastness of the universe (literal universe) beyond just this planet. You are acknowledging that you are one speck out of many. It also helps with ego. It pulls one down out of the rafters of heaven and see the knowledge or "intelligence" of what we know from our perspective of earth and space.

If god is a being, I do not understand how it has unconditional love. If god IS life, then unconditional love is inherent in us so we experience god through the actions we do and what we experience both good and bad. It is nice that many can confirm these feelings from the bible, quran, or so have you but other religions depend on experience of god directly without depending on a book to confirm their feelings. It's innate and the only help they may have is service to their community, practice, and receiving oral transmission of thought from those who have more experience.

Here is food for thought: Plato: The Myth of the Cave

I thought this interesting because although you don't see were in illusions, because of our physical and mental limitations (are there limitations? If so, compared to who and what?) or differences, we cannot see what is outside. We only know the shadows in front of us.

If I sat in a dark room, that is something that I'd have to be comfortable with: Not knowing.

If you are yearning to cut on the light to see, you trick yourself into thinking once you can see, you know more than those who cannot. That is not always true. I live in the same complex with two completely blind individuals. I have a vision problem but I go double sighted rather than blind. They can travel. They can sew. They can cook. They can play scrabble. They can play Bingo. They can...

When I'm double sighted, I can't do half the things they can do without vision. I'm ignorant of the world around me because I'm seeing in illusion. I don't know how far or how close things are.

However, if I were full sighted, I'd be able to tell. If I were completely blind, I would with practice on different skills I would if I were sighted. In both cases, none are ignorant. There is no "who am I?" Darkness or light are on the same token.

Humanity is more double sighted. Plants, animals, and nature are either blinded or sighted. They experience and/or see the real world around us where we humans are constantly making things more complicated then they actually are.

God is one way to make things complicated. You can't see him so you're blinded (until you can see). You experience him (but you can see him even though you were blinded). But you can't say either is 100 percent true (because you can't see him) yet you say it is 100 percent true (because you experience him)

Basically, it's a catch 22 in a maze of contradictory logic. So, you use words such as "beyond", "human limitations", and "infinite". It's like the double sighted trying to describe what he experiences by saying he doesn't know because being blinded or sighted is above his level of awareness.

That is not true from personal experience. It's an illusion. The car is still the same distance no matter if I can see, see two or three cars, are see no car. It does not change reality. Regardless of our religion or belief in god (or so have you) reality doesn't change for us. It's to better us just as my white stick helps me "see" even though people think I can because I'm not completely blind.

God is the same way. Unless you understand god (double sightedness) as what it is, you will always either yearn to see or yearn to be blind. But if you use your cane (faith) rather than depend on the bible, you learn about yourself more and regardless if you are in a dark room or a lighted room, those wouldn't matter.

You learn how to take care of yourself how you are now regardless your eye vision. God is the same way. There is no "who am I?" in life. That's just for us to understand ourselves to continue. In a dark room there is no light.

Be comfortable in the dark. Understand your nature by understanding the shadows. Try not to turn your head so you won't hurt your neck. Be happy where you are today. I have seizures so I live in unpredictability. I don't understand order because that's not how I was raised.

That's alright. Just I find it weird how god enters into this conclusion and even more so the idea of intelligence when life isn't about that.

 

[godnotgod]

how about an answer?

NO

OK, so if the answer is 'NO', tell me: where does your consciousness end and the outside world of 'things' begin?

 

[godnotgod]

"You have not told us where your consciousness ends and the outside world begins."

I have many times now, they are both inside and outside my brain. The outside world serves as its own, external, representation.

Your conscious when you observe the outside world through your senses which are then processed and stored in the brain. Of course, that is a really simple explanation of the complexities. The brain has about 9 billion neurons and so many synapses firing that if you counted one every second it would take you three million years to count them all.

If I didn't have a nervous system and brain I would not know about the outside world nor would I be alive. The brain generates awareness of the outside world. This "consciousness ends and the outside world begins." is misleading from the start and just plain wrong. Consciousness is needed to experience the outside world.

Yes, of course, but that is not the question:

"Is the actual Sun and moon within your consciousness?" I am not referring to a memory or impression of the Sun and moon. I am asking if your consciousness, which you claim is generated by the brain, and the Sun and moon are one, or is there a conscious subject (you) perceiving a non-conscious object (ie 'Sun') apart from your consciousness.

 

[godnotgod]

But the nature of reality can be described in mathematical terms given enough intelligence.

Heh..heh...Given enough intelligence, one would realize the impossibility, if not the foolishness, of such an endeavor. If you insist that this is the case, please provide such a mathematical description. I am eager to see it.

You said:

The Source is far from nothing.

Then I said:

Oh? Then it is .....'something'?

Can you tell me what that 'something' is?

 

[shawn001]

Yes, of course, but that is not the question:

"Is the actual Sun and moon within your consciousness?" I am not referring to a memory or impression of the Sun and moon. I am asking if your consciousness, which you claim is generated by the brain, and the Sun and moon are one, or is there a conscious subject (you) perceiving a non-conscious object (ie 'Sun') apart from your consciousness.

"Is the actual Sun and moon within your consciousness?"

There is just room enough for my brain, the sun and the moon wouldn't physically fit.

I am an individual consciousness who is aware and perceiving nonconscious objects.

I stated that enough times, you just didn't seem to get it. I also mentioned memory quite a few time I believe.

"I am not referring to a memory or impression of the Sun and moon"

My brain gives me wonderful memories of them.

 

[shawn001]

So now,

How to your senses apply to your question?

If all the neurotransmitters were removed from you entire body would meditation still work?

 

[godnotgod]

Just FYI

The Nature of Reality: A Dialogue Between a Buddhist Scholar and a Theoretical Physicist

Thanks for posting this! I love Alan Wallace. In a nutshell, what I see happening here is that Shaun (the physicist) is pointing to the behavior of the world as it is manifested, and saying that is reality, and we know how it works, while Wallace (the Buddhist) is pointing to That deeper something underlying the manifested world. A Hindu would say that the underlying something that is manifesting the world is playing itself as The World. IOW, 'The World' is maya, an illusion, the true nature of Reality being That which underlies the world, and not the world itself. And now, Quantum Physics has moved to Field Theory, which says that all particles in the Universe are not actually 'material' particles, but standing waves created in the surrounding fields in which they manifest. The Quantum Physics way of talking about this phenomenon is to say that what we used to call 'material' reality is a 'superposition of possibilities'.

Knowing how something works is not to understand the nature of Reality. This is the mistake the physicist is making.

"We will never see things clearly. That is an illusion"

Maybe yes, maybe no, a unified theory that combines Relativity with Quantum mechanics could go a long way to understanding everything.

This has been solved:

 

[godnotgod]

"Is the actual Sun and moon within your consciousness?"

There is just room enough for my brain, the sun and the moon wouldn't physically fit.

I am an individual consciousness who is aware and perceiving nonconscious objects.

I stated that enough times, you just didn't seem to get it. I also mentioned memory quite a few time I believe.

"I am not referring to a memory or impression of the Sun and moon"

My brain gives me wonderful memories of them.

Thanks for surrendering one inch of progress here.

OK. So it is clear that you are perceiving the world in a subject/object split. So where does the subject end and the object begin?

 

[godnotgod]

So now,

How to your senses apply to your question?

If all the neurotransmitters were removed from you entire body would meditation still work?

I am not asking the question from the POV of my senses.

Meditation is just a pathway to a consciousness that exists before anything else exists.

 

[godnotgod]

"You are conscious. Does this conscious state stop at your skull?"

My consciousness state does not stop at my skull, nor start there, which is bone.

I have read and watched everything you have posted.

"both a video and a scientific paper on the experiment which proves that the brain can function on..."

In the experiment by Jacobo-Grinsberg, the two subjects were not only physically separated, but placed into Faraday cages where no electronic signals could enter or leave. And yet, brain B responded to everything that brain A responded to, without any of the input that brain A was receiving. The only conclusion that can be reached is that consciousness is non-local.

 

[Polymath257]

OK, so if the answer is 'NO', tell me: where does your consciousness end and the outside world of 'things' begin?

I've answered that already. My consciousness resides inside my skull.

 

[Polymath257]

Yes, of course, but that is not the question:

"Is the actual Sun and moon within your consciousness?" I am not referring to a memory or impression of the Sun and moon. I am asking if your consciousness, which you claim is generated by the brain, and the Sun and moon are one, or is there a conscious subject (you) perceiving a non-conscious object (ie 'Sun') apart from your consciousness.

There is a sun and moon outside of my consciousness that is perceived by me (who is conscious) through information acquired by the senses.

 

[Polymath257]

You don't actually know that The Universe is not conscious. Because you are caught in a subject/object framework, you see yourself as conscious, but not the rest of the Universe.

What is your definition of 'conscious' that you use to determine that the universe is conscious?

Science cannot know what the true nature of consciousness actually is, because consciousness is not based upon Reason, Logic, or Analysis, the tools of science. Consciousness is beyond the rational mind, even though the rational mind is a function of consciousness.

Cute claim. Any proof? Any way to test this? Any operational definitions of the concepts involved?

It is not so much that things are conscious, but that consciousness is manifesting itself as those things, indeed, as The Universe itself. [/QUOTE]

Cute claim. Any proof? Any way to test this? Any operational definitions of the concepts involved?

What does it mean to be conscious? You, a conscious being, are asking the question. Do you understand why?

Why what? Why do I ask? Because I don't assume that the way I am conscious is the same as the way you are. I don't assume that the way I am conscious is the same as the way my cat is. So I want definitions to determine if it even makes sense to say that a bacterium is conscious. Or that the universe is.

"My conclusion is that consciousness is not a thing or substance, but is a nonlocal phenomenon. Nonlocal is merely a fancy word for infinite. If something is nonlocal, it is not localized to specific points in space, such as brains or bodies, or to specific points in time, such as the present."

And the reasoning behind that conclusion?

 

[godnotgod]

I've answered that already. My consciousness resides inside my skull.

OK. So where does it end? At the membrane inside your skull; at the bony interior; just on the outside? Where?

 

[godnotgod]

There is a sun and moon outside of my consciousness that is perceived by me (who is conscious) through information acquired by the senses.

So your perception is that of a subject/object split. Where is subject, and where is object? At which point does one end and the other begin?

 

[godnotgod]

Why what? Why do I ask? Because I don't assume that the way I am conscious is the same as the way you are. I don't assume that the way I am conscious is the same as the way my cat is. So I want definitions to determine if it even makes sense to say that a bacterium is conscious. Or that the universe is.

There is no difference between you, a cat, a bacterium, or The Universe in terms of consciousness. Those things ARE what makes up The Universe itself, along with a few other 'things'. The same consciousness infuses all of them. Only they behave differently as dictated by form and function. Consciousness is a matter of degree, but appears differently in different species. One can let a little light into a darkened room, or flood the interior with it. That is consciousness. One can, via one's efforts, expand one's consciousness by tapping into the universal source. This is meditation. "My" consciousness is an illusion of the self. There is no 'I' that is conscious; there is only consciousness, expressing itself as 'I'. There is no individual phenomena called 'wave' on the ocean's surface; there is only the ocean manifesting itself as 'wave'. 'Wave' is a total action of the ocean; what you are is a total action of The Universe.

 

[Polymath257]

OK. So where does it end? At the membrane inside your skull; at the bony interior; just on the outside? Where?

The neurons are the physical substrate and the consciousness is, essentially, a program running on those neurons.

 

[Polymath257]

So your perception is that of a subject/object split. Where is subject, and where is object? At which point does one end and the other begin?

Well, I am a part of the universe, if that is what you mean. But my consciousness is a process of the neurons in my head.

Asking this question is like asking where a computer program ends.

 

[Polymath257]

There is no difference between you, a cat, a bacterium, or The Universe in terms of consciousness. Those things ARE what makes up The Universe itself, along with a few other 'things'. The same consciousness infuses all of them. Only they behave differently as dictated by form and function. Consciousness is a matter of degree, but appears differently in different species. One can let a little light into a darkened room, or flood the interior with it. That is consciousness. One can, via one's efforts, expand one's consciousness by tapping into the universal source. This is meditation. "My" consciousness is an illusion of the self. There is no 'I' that is conscious; there is only consciousness, expressing itself as 'I'. There is no individual phenomena called 'wave' on the ocean's surface; there is only the ocean manifesting itself as 'wave'. 'Wave' is a total action of the ocean; what you are is a total action of The Universe.

A nice story. Any evidence that this is the case? I didn't think so.

If you say that a bacterium is conscious, the only conclusion I can draw is that you have a very different definition of the term 'conscious' than what I use. Either that, or you are deluded.