Question to Atheists: Living for here and now or living for a place with God in the next.

[HonestJoe]

My question to atheists or people who doubt God, have you tried reaching out to Mohammad (s) and his family (a) and asking God to intercede on your path through them appearing as light? Or do you find this impossible to sincerely do as long as you doubt God? If so, please explain why.

Have you ever tried reaching out to Zeus, Odin, Buddha or Baha'u'llah? If not, why not? If you can answer honestly, you'll also have an answer that applies to atheists and indeed anyone else who doesn't share your specific religious beliefs.

 

[Link]

Have you ever tried reaching out to Zeus, Odin, Buddha or Baha'u'llah? If not, why not? If you can answer honestly, you'll also have an answer that applies to atheists and indeed anyone else who doesn't share your specific religious beliefs.

I believe they are false on basis of knowledge of Islam. But I thought a lot Atheists just claim they simply don't know. Or do you believe that Islam is false?

 

[Nimos]

I see what you mean. You believe it's to close to placebo to be testable on a personal level?

Yes, I think that is an accurate description.

 

[Link]

Your OP gave a different impression.

What do you mean?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I'm saying - people can't live for God if they doubt him. So why not reach out to God to remove the doubt

I have done that, and successfully. See below. I'm quite confident that I am in continual contact with the highest power, which I continually consult for guidance.

why not research religions and take a bet with the more rational one, and try to seek an intermediation through it's chosen ones as well and ask God to intervene and remove the doubt?

Let me tell you about my "God," or better yet, since this guy has already done so quite eloquently, let me quote him. The following was written by a man named Richard Banford. He uses the word God metaphorically while telling you about what he respects. He is not talking about a sentient universe creator, but rather, what he (and I) respect more than faith in gods: reason. The faithful tend to convert all of that to their language anyway, so I'll do that as well. Feel free to consider secular humanism my religion, respect for reason worship, and reason a God that should be consulted and that can give reliable guidance the way that the faithful view their God and scriptures.

So, by that reckoning, I have already found the most rational "religion" and the highest power - reason. I have already called upon my "God" (reason) to intervene, and it led me to agnostic atheism and secular humanism.

"Do you know his name? Sure you do. He talks to you every day. You could not live a normal life without him. You believe in him, whether you like it or not. Unless you abandon him completely, you cannot deny he exists.

"My god is a more personal god than yours can ever be, for if you have enough sense to understand these words, my god lives within you. He lives within us all, to some degree. A heartbreaking few cannot understand him, but this is not their fault. The real tragedy is the multitudes who ignore much of his counsel, particularly when he questions your god too deeply.

"My god has been around longer than your god. He was here before the many other gods that preceded your god. Though you will likely scoff at the notion, my god was the father of your god, as he was to all gods. But that was long ago when he was young and not yet sure of himself. Though many of your god's followers try to hold him down, my god grows stronger and more independent each day.

"When your god expelled us from paradise for eating an apple, my god taught us to grow our own fruit.

"When your god forbade knowledge, demanding we live in ignorance, my god created books.

"When your god smote cities like a tantrum-prone child, my god helped to rebuild them.

"When your god insisted the world was flat, my god showed his followers it was round, to their peril at the hands of your god's followers.

"While your god watched in silence as children sickened and died, my god created medicines to make them well.

"When your god winked and nodded at slavery, my god argued passionately against it.

"While your god represses half the human race, my god considers woman to be the equal of man.

"When your god only helps those who help themselves, my god rolls up his sleeves and actually does help until your god decides to join in, and then steals all the credit.

"When your god inspired great buildings and great art, my god made them possible.

"While your god says we are all born sinners, tainted before we even draw breath, my god says we are all born innocent; a clean slate with limitless potential.

"While your god offers dubious allusions of an afterlife, my god provides for us here in this life.

"While your god makes amazing promises, but offers not a shred of proof, my god performs amazing deeds, and the proof is there to be seen by all.

"While your god demands blind faith and obsequious obedience, my god encourages questions, even about himself.

"When your god says "Thou shalt not," my god says "You can do anything."

"My god is reason. He does more in a day than your god will ever do."​

I would recommend my "God" and "religion" (see the Affirmations of Humanism for a summary) to you in place of what you have now, and make the same kind of plea to you to just give it a chance, to seek genuine wisdom using newly enlightened eyes, but we both know that that is no more an option for you than my following in your footsteps of faith and theism is for me.

 

[Link]

Yes, I think that is an accurate description.

I see, and you believe seeing God's lights and mystic worlds would be mind generated as well?

 

[Link]

I have done that, and successfully. See below. I'm quite confident that I am in continual contact with the highest power, which I continually consult for guidance.



Let me tell you about my "God," or better yet, since this guy has already done so quite eloquently, let me quote him. The following was written by a man named Richard Banford. He uses the word God metaphorically while telling you about what he respects. He is not talking about a sentient universe creator, but rather, what he (and I) respect more than faith in gods: reason. The faithful tend to convert all of that to their language anyway, so I'll do that as well. Feel free to consider secular humanism my religion, respect for reason worship, and reason a God that should be consulted and that can give reliable guidance the way that the faithful view their God and scriptures.

So, by that reckoning, I have already found the most rational "religion" and the highest power - reason. I have already called upon my "God" (reason) to intervene, and it led me to agnostic atheism and secular humanism.

"Do you know his name? Sure you do. He talks to you every day. You could not live a normal life without him. You believe in him, whether you like it or not. Unless you abandon him completely, you cannot deny he exists.

"My god is a more personal god than yours can ever be, for if you have enough sense to understand these words, my god lives within you. He lives within us all, to some degree. A heartbreaking few cannot understand him, but this is not their fault. The real tragedy is the multitudes who ignore much of his counsel, particularly when he questions your god too deeply.

"My god has been around longer than your god. He was here before the many other gods that preceded your god. Though you will likely scoff at the notion, my god was the father of your god, as he was to all gods. But that was long ago when he was young and not yet sure of himself. Though many of your god's followers try to hold him down, my god grows stronger and more independent each day.

"When your god expelled us from paradise for eating an apple, my god taught us to grow our own fruit.

"When your god forbade knowledge, demanding we live in ignorance, my god created books.

"When your god smote cities like a tantrum-prone child, my god helped to rebuild them.

"When your god insisted the world was flat, my god showed his followers it was round, to their peril at the hands of your god's followers.

"While your god watched in silence as children sickened and died, my god created medicines to make them well.

"When your god winked and nodded at slavery, my god argued passionately against it.

"While your god represses half the human race, my god considers woman to be the equal of man.

"When your god only helps those who help themselves, my god rolls up his sleeves and actually does help until your god decides to join in, and then steals all the credit.

"When your god inspired great buildings and great art, my god made them possible.

"While your god says we are all born sinners, tainted before we even draw breath, my god says we are all born innocent; a clean slate with limitless potential.

"While your god offers dubious allusions of an afterlife, my god provides for us here in this life.

"While your god makes amazing promises, but offers not a shred of proof, my god performs amazing deeds, and the proof is there to be seen by all.

"While your god demands blind faith and obsequious obedience, my god encourages questions, even about himself.

"When your god says "Thou shalt not," my god says "You can do anything."

"My god is reason. He does more in a day than your god will ever do."​

I would recommend my "God" and "religion" (see the Affirmations of Humanism for a summary) to you in place of what you have now, and make the same kind of plea to you to just give it a chance, to seek genuine wisdom using newly enlightened eyes, but we both know that that is no more an option for you than my following in your footsteps of faith and theism is for me.

I was a Deist (believed in Angels though so not sure if I was accurately that) for 5 years. I did consider a lot humanistic ethic systems.

 

[viole]

My question to atheists or people who doubt God, have you tried reaching out to Mohammad (s) and his family (a) and asking God to intercede on your path through them appearing as light? Or do you find this impossible to sincerely do as long as you doubt God? If so, please explain why.

I cannot possibly do that without believing there is something to intercede on my path first, or whatever Gods do. Therefore, what you are asking is logically impossible for me. since it requires an a-priori belief I do not have. And if I had it, I would not need to go through that exercise, anyway.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Nimos]

I see, and you believe seeing God's lights and mystic worlds would be mind generated as well?

Well I think that is to jump the fence a bit.

People are mistaken all the time, we might see things in the dark that is not there. We know that it is very common for young children, people believe they see weird lights in the sky, some hear voices and believe in spirits etc. So we know humans are often mistaken about these things, and I think if we already have a believe in a certain thing we are also more likely to assume that something is linked to that.

So what I mean with jumping the fence a bit, is that I do believe that people see and hear or believe that they experience these things, but even if that is case. There is a long way from a person believing in seeing something to then conclude that it is then also "God's light". This is not an obvious conclusion to draw from a given experience.

First of all, because the "God's light" you refer to, is the light of the God you believe in, meaning that its obviously not Odin or another God. A Christian might give the same explanation and say that it was the light of Jesus.

It seems to be very common for religious people or people that believe in some sort of experience to quickly jump to a conclusion without really having any good reason for doing so.

So I don't think the experience for the person that have them is necessarily wrong, meaning that I think they are convinced they are real, but I also believe that they jump to fast to a conclusion without actually knowing what it was or even consider whether that is the most obvious explanation.

 

[Link]

I cannot possibly do that without believing there is something to intercede on my path first, or whatever Gods do. Therefore, what you are asking is logically impossible for me. since it requires an a-priori belief I do not have. And if I had it, I would not need to go through that exercise, anyway.

Ciao

- viole

Why is it impossible?

 

[Link]

Well I think that is to jump the fence a bit.

People are mistaken all the time, we might see things in the dark that is not there. We know that it is very common for young children, people believe they see weird lights in the sky, some hear voices and believe in spirits etc. So we know humans are often mistaken about these things, and I think if we already have a believe in a certain thing we are also more likely to assume that something is linked to that.

So what I mean with jumping the fence a bit, is that I do believe that people see and hear or believe that they experience these things, but even if that is case. There is a long way from a person believing in seeing something to then conclude that it is then also "God's light". This is not an obvious conclusion to draw from a given experience.

First of all, because the "God's light" you refer to, is the light of the God you believe in, meaning that its obviously not Odin or another God. A Christian might give the same explanation and say that it was the light of Jesus.

It seems to be very common for religious people or people that believe in some sort of experience to quickly jump to a conclusion without really having any good reason for doing so.

So I don't think the experience for the person that have them is necessarily wrong, meaning that I think they are convinced they are real, but I also believe that they jump to fast to a conclusion without actually knowing what it was or even consider whether that is the most obvious explanation.

I believe the unseen has made this life truly a test of faith. I believe only God's chosen link us to God, while Jinn might link people to unseen reality and give them telepathy powers, they are incomparable in majesty, greatness, and power of God's chosen. At the end, they aren't the connection and signs of God like his chosen.

Consequently, people might incline to other paths then God's path, or religion than God's religion, but this doesn't mean they are comparable or on near each level.

The light and darkness are not the same.

But I understand from an Atheistic perspective, you might see all claims the same and mind playing tricks on us.

 

[viole]

Why is it impossible?

Because I cannot possibly ask God without first believing there is one.

You have to understand that for me God is as plausible as the blue fairy, or Superman.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Link]

Because I cannot possibly ask God without first believing there is one.

You have to understand that for me God is as plausible as the blue fairy, or Superman.

Ciao

- viole

Yet in my story of becoming established in faith, I wasn't sure of Mohammad (s), but took a leap of faith in seeking his intercession. My life turned around when I did!

So I know it can be done.

 

[viole]

Yet in my story of becoming established in faith, I wasn't sure of Mohammad (s), but took a leap of faith in seeking his intercession. My life turned around when I did!

So I know it can be done.

My Christian friend told me the same, mutatis mutandis. Any believer in God X, says the same.

Let me try. Nope. Nothing happens.

Ciao

- viole

 

[firedragon]

No. I just find no practical purpose in doing so. Aham Brahmasmi. Why would I have need to reach out to a deity for any reason other than desire or attachment?

Could be if you like truth. If there is a deity, who is more qualified to give you?

 

[firedragon]

I was Christian until mid teens but left, really because of Christians.
The area i lived, although only a few miles from three towns with hight Muslim populations, had no Muslims close by so i never even heard of Allah or Mohamed until several years after i became atheiest. I truly saw and see no point in grasping at religious straws.

Thus, its an emotional hatred, and you dont know anything about "Allah or Mohamed" as you worded it.

 

[Nimos]

I believe the unseen has made this life truly a test of faith. I believe only God's chosen link us to God, while Jinn might link people to unseen reality and give them telepathy powers, they are incomparable in majesty, greatness, and power of God's chosen. At the end, they aren't the connection and signs of God like his chosen.

Consequently, people might incline to other paths then God's path, or religion than God's religion, but this doesn't mean they are comparable or on near each level.

The light and darkness are not the same.

But I understand from an Atheistic perspective, you might see all claims the same and mind playing tricks on us.

In regards to what you wrote here, I would stop you several times for clarifications...

"I believe the unseen has made this life truly a test of faith."
Unseen do you mean like atoms etc.? or if you mean things that are completely unobservable? if its the last one, then I would ask how you could draw that conclusion, which is obviously explained , because we need to have faith in something. But again to me this is to jump to another conclusion.

"I believe only God's chosen.."
In these five words alone you jump to two conclusions.. first that God exist, which again has not been demonstrated, but further more, you also conclude or claim to know something about God, which is that he chooses some people... So now we start assigning properties to something that we don't even know if exists in the first place.

So I hope you can see what I mean, because from a atheists perspective, its not only about mind tricks, its about this whole believe in something, that starts with something being unknown. Which is where we ought to stop. But then very quickly escalate into us knowing a whole lot about this, which again, we don't really have a good reason for in the first place, simply because it hasn't been demonstrated. Doesn't mean that God doesn't exist, simply that there is no stopping here, it goes from accepting a lot of claims as if they were true and then we just keep adding to it, until we forgot that the first claim it was built on haven't been demonstrated to begin with.

To me, that is where the faith comes in, we simply "hope" we are correct, and as more and more "hope" is applied, it magically turns from hope to truth. I think, its most atheists view, to step on the break and take it easy, before running off with some claim. Most atheists wouldn't claim that God doesn't exist, simply that it is unknown and before we step on the speeder, lets try to examine that first, if that makes sense.

 

[HonestJoe]

I believe they are false on basis of knowledge of Islam.

And believers in other faiths believe yours is false too. You are challenging other people's beliefs yet you are unwilling to challenge your own? Why should I reach out to a deity I don't believe in if you're not willing to do the same? As I said, I suspect the answers are pretty much the same regardless of what a person believes.

But I thought a lot Atheists just claim they simply don't know. Or do you believe that Islam is false?

There are lots of elements of Islam, with variations and differences of opinion within and I don't claim to know enough to judge each and every element. There are some key elements I think are false and some elements I think are no more (or less) likely that the thousands of alternatives presented by different religions, beliefs or faiths.

I don't see any reason to give any single religion specific attention and don't have enough time in my life to give them all attention. As I see it, if there is any kind of all-powerful being out there, they wouldn't need me to take any specific action and are just as likely to disapprove of any action I take as they are to approve.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Could be if you like truth. If there is a deity, who is more qualified to give you?

Smitty Werbenjagermanjensen. And do you know why?

 

[Link]

In regards to what you wrote here, I would stop you several times for clarifications...

"I believe the unseen has made this life truly a test of faith."
Unseen do you mean like atoms etc.? or if you mean things that are completely unobservable? if its the last one, then I would ask how you could draw that conclusion, which is obviously because we need to have faith in something, which again to me is just jumping to another assumption.

Good question. I believe the name of God has outward (Quran and Ahlulbayt) and also inward (Quran light and Ahlulbayt light) and that the light is connected to all things. I believed the eyes of the soul which is love can "hold on to" - the name of God.

By (love and reason holding on, the soul holding on to, witnessing through eyes of beautiful love and higher reason through light) the name (he has chosen for himself - his chosen face the leader and guide) of God, the Compassionate (universally and Michael and Angels under him been entrusted to expand his love and compassion for all), the Compassionate (his extensive mercy, and Gabriel and Angels under him been entrusted with intensifying God's mercy once we enter his fold of favor and grace).

This is the first verse of Surah Fatiha.

Why I understand it beyond the "By the name of God, the Compassionate (to all), The Compassionate (extensively)" as a formality itself is a belief in unseen.

To an Atheist, I would be making way too much of "By the name of God" with my explanation, yet with my understanding of how Quran describes reality, I've come to that explanation.

What I want to show is that you to see name of God, you might believe it's imagination and you imagining God as an idea or term or category.

You might see Mohammad (s) as name of God potential, but if you witness him, you will see he is my head, I'm not really connected to him.

There was a point when I was non-Muslim, Ali (a) would argue with me about why we need Nubuwa and Wilayah, and he said it's because the darkness of sins can destroy us without a light, but I would argue back and then say "You are just in my head".

Over time, I learned, it was truly Imam Ali (a).

Faith in unseen that is "by" in, it's the Bes is the first letter and connecting to Ism.

This holding on to God, and his light, takes various tests. Some people will hold to morals from his name (his light), but say it's just conceptual (the light).

At the end, I agree to some extent, you and I both looking at the same thing with respect to God. You see it as a concept, while it see as the living being.

The difference is darkness of doubt from evils deeds doesn't want to be judged and so can't hold on to the name of God but is running away from it and averted from it. The light is there, it's just not acknowledge as REALITY.

To me, you always, and still do, have the choice to turn around and just observe God's Name for what it is. And it's the manifest leader with us all. The Imam of our time, the Guide, the face of God, the light of God illuminating all beings including those in the dark.