Questions about Islam

[gsa]

Above all, I'm their friend, and have been there for them...always, as they have for me. This should not change that. And it is sad that it would for some.

Maybe, but announcing that you are converting to Islam, or even contemplating converting to Islam, can change a person’s estimation of your values. I don’t want to come across as cold or aloof in this, so let me explain my perspective. I fell in love with a Muslim when I was younger (a bad Muslim but a Muslim), my sister is currently dating a Muslim man and I work with Muslims on a regular basis, and count Muslims (nominal and devout) among my friends.

That said, I also know that converts can often become true believers. When a relative converted to Catholicism, she suddenly had five times as many children, became extremely anti-abortion and was offended by Protestantism. My sister is under some pressure to acclimate herself to Islam because of her boyfriend’s family, even if they don’t expect her to convert.

All of this makes me wary of religious conversion to conservative traditions. Is it fair? Maybe not, but if my sister converted to Islam I would have plenty of questions for her. Do I have a role in her life, as a gay man and unbeliever? Will she adopt customs that our family regards as backwards? Will this present problems in the future?

You can say that the religion will not change you, and that may be true for you, but it may also be the case that your friends are operating under a different set of assumptions. They might be avoiding you because they don’t want to deal with these questions.
You’re a reasonable and intelligent person. I think you know that a Muslim, confronted with a family member or friend who became an atheist, would have different but similar questions. I don’t think that you should hold your friends to a different standard.

 

[Jumi]

Sadly, two good friends of mine who are atheists, have ignored my phone calls and texts, after we had a discussion about Islam, and my interest in it. They talked to me as though I was insane, and said some nasty remarks...now are ignoring me.

I had similar experience with a friend who converted to Islam but the other way around. She couldn't accept I was atheist.

 

[Deidre]

Maybe, but announcing that you are converting to Islam, or even contemplating converting to Islam, can change a person’s estimation of your values. I don’t want to come across as cold or aloof in this, so let me explain my perspective. I fell in love with a Muslim when I was younger (a bad Muslim but a Muslim), my sister is currently dating a Muslim man and I work with Muslims on a regular basis, and count Muslims (nominal and devout) among my friends.

That said, I also know that converts can often become true believers. When a relative converted to Catholicism, she suddenly had five times as many children, became extremely anti-abortion and was offended by Protestantism. My sister is under some pressure to acclimate herself to Islam because of her boyfriend’s family, even if they don’t expect her to convert.

All of this makes me wary of religious conversion to conservative traditions. Is it fair? Maybe not, but if my sister converted to Islam I would have plenty of questions for her. Do I have a role in her life, as a gay man and unbeliever? Will she adopt customs that our family regards as backwards? Will this present problems in the future?

You can say that the religion will not change you, and that may be true for you, but it may also be the case that your friends are operating under a different set of assumptions. They might be avoiding you because they don’t want to deal with these questions.
You’re a reasonable and intelligent person. I think you know that a Muslim, confronted with a family member or friend who became an atheist, would have different but similar questions. I don’t think that you should hold your friends to a different standard.

I appreciate your post, and it's not falling on deaf ears.


In truth, I don’t hold any of my friends or family to a ‘standard.’ Unless they were choosing to do something dangerous or illegal with their lives, I wouldn’t avoid them. Or remark in a nasty way to them. I was a Christian, with more atheist friends than Christian, and they accepted me for me. I accepted them as people, and didn't view them as labels. It’s interesting that two of those atheist friends suddenly have an issue with Islam, but didn’t have one when I was a Christian?

Well, haven’t heard from them still, so I’m not reaching out. I didn’t do anything wrong, and if they see this as such…I’m not sure what I can do about that.

 

[LuisDantas]

It’s interesting that two of those atheist friends suddenly have an issue with Islam, but didn’t have one when I was a Christian?

Do you find that surprising? I do not.

There is very much a difference in perception between an abstract faith and one that a person you actually know manifests an interest in.

 

[gsa]

I appreciate your post, and it's not falling on deaf ears.


In truth, I don’t hold any of my friends or family to a ‘standard.’ Unless they were choosing to do something dangerous or illegal with their lives, I wouldn’t avoid them. Or remark in a nasty way to them. I was a Christian, with more atheist friends than Christian, and they accepted me for me. I accepted them as people, and didn't view them as labels. It’s interesting that two of those atheist friends suddenly have an issue with Islam, but didn’t have one when I was a Christian?

Well, haven’t heard from them still, so I’m not reaching out. I didn’t do anything wrong, and if they see this as such…I’m not sure what I can do about that.

In the US, the Christian label isn't necessarily taken seriously unless someone owns it by attending services regularly, wearing a cross or crucifix, talking about it or otherwise manifesting it on a personal or social level. We secular Americans also celebrate Christmas and are even caught attending services for high holidays and certain rites, like a christening.

Conversion (or "reversion" in the case of Islam) to a different Abrahamic religion is another matter. Islam in particular has five mandatory pillars, and Judaism involves changing your peoplehood. There can also be significant lifestyle changes that accompany a conversion.

Remember, when you become a Muslim you are also joining a community that includes a large percentage of fundamentalist nation states that mete out punishment for atheism. Before 9/11, many American secular humanist and atheist publications addressed the perceived problems with Islamic fundamentalism, including laws mandating punishment for apostasy and blasphemy. Most Muslims believe that the Quran is infallible, and Muslims who don't believe this are marginal within the ummah. Rightly or wrongly, your atheist friends may perceive that you have adopted the same beliefs that are held by the vast majority of Muslims, and that you are now hostile to them.

 

[Deidre]

@gsaseeker - It is a very different comparison here in the US, I agree...and you are right in the sense that my atheist friends might be concerned I will become a religious zealot. I told them, I will always be me, and no matter if I take the path of Islam or not...I will always be me.


I like this linked article I found...I thought it was well written, and thorough in the view of Muhammad.
I'd be interested to see the opinions of it, here from you guyz?

IslamiCity.com - Does the Quran or Muhammad promote violence?

 

[Deidre]

I don't care for this verse...

Surat An-Nisa' [4:34] - The Noble Qur'an - القرآن الكريم
How to view it?

 

[LuisDantas]

@gsaseeker - It is a very different comparison here in the US, I agree...and you are right in the sense that my atheist friends might be concerned I will become a religious zealot. I told them, I will always be me, and no matter if I take the path of Islam or not...I will always be me.

People change, sometimes unpredictably so. I can't blame your friends for not assuming how your sympathies for Islam might change (or signal a change) in your behavior and interests.

I like this linked article I found...I thought it was well written, and thorough in the view of Muhammad.
I'd be interested to see the opinions of it, here from you guyz?

IslamiCity.com - Does the Quran or Muhammad promote violence?

Personally, I think Islam is simply too dualistic.

It is primed to associate virtue with the concepts of God - Islam - the Quran - Muhammad and disgrace with anything that questions or disagrees with it. I suppose that might bring craved certainty for some people, but I don't think that it does so in a way that consistently leads to religious wisdom and intelectual honesty.

On the contrary, it often becomes fertile ground for the birth of dangerous fantasies and fears.

 

[Sees]

I don't care for this verse...

Surat An-Nisa' [4:34] - The Noble Qur'an - القرآن الكريم
How to view it?

Tons and tons of discussion on this verse has taken place. I think in the end pretty much all non-Muslims will take it at face value and strongly dislike it. Muslims will have many different, and of course more favorable, takes on it.

I plainly don't like the general view of women in Islam...even having read/heard the better parts of Qur'an and hadith concerning women, many times.

 

[Deidre]

Tons and tons of discussion on this verse has taken place. I think in the end pretty much all non-Muslims will take it at face value and strongly dislike it. Muslims will have many different, and of course more favorable, takes on it.

I plainly don't like the general view of women in Islam...even having read/heard the better parts of Qur'an and hadith concerning women, many times.

Yes, I hear you.

There is much beauty in Islam to me, but one of the struggles I’ve had with the Abrahamic faiths in general, and why I left Christianity—is that some of the passages on ‘instructions’ for mankind don’t seem to give a person ‘the best’ options. I mean, is the best that we can do is treat someone (women) like children and admonish them by striking them? What? (and children shouldn't be 'struck' either)

I don’t intend to ever marry to be honest, just not something I’m interested in…BUT…if I ever were to, my potential husband is not hitting me. No way. I don’t care what any holy book suggests, even if I’m following said religion. I don’t believe that is the best we can do for humanity…using violence to ‘get our way.’ It isn’t only in Islam, that ‘odd’ commands are noted…and I can’t help but wonder why would an all-powerful God, suggest such a poor instruction? And also, that men are elevated in status to women…as if women need to be ‘kept in line,’ by their mates.


I won’t ever accept this passage.

 

[LuisDantas]

This is a good illustration of my trouble with scripture-based faith. Muslims end up having to choose between submitting to the letter of the teaching and (usually very reluctantly) deciding to take responsibility for properly adapting, reinterpreting or disregarding it... quite often while insisting that they are not questioning the Quran's wisdom in any way.

Muslims deserve better.

 

[gsa]

@gsaseeker - It is a very different comparison here in the US, I agree...and you are right in the sense that my atheist friends might be concerned I will become a religious zealot. I told them, I will always be me, and no matter if I take the path of Islam or not...I will always be me.


I like this linked article I found...I thought it was well written, and thorough in the view of Muhammad.
I'd be interested to see the opinions of it, here from you guyz?

IslamiCity.com - Does the Quran or Muhammad promote violence?

I read it. It doesn't seem to be much different from a lot of other Islamic commentary on this question.

I find this argument to be relatively typical:

All killing, fighting, war and even administration of law and order involve some type of violence. However, the "Wild Wild West" did not earn the United States a reputation for violence; the two World Wars - the most violent and the worst killings in human history - did not earn the West in general and Europe in particular a reputation for violence either. The virtual decimation of the Indian people in the United States did not make the country barbaric or uncivilized. The European colonization that ravaged, exploited and dehumanized various parts of Asia and Africa, including the Muslim world, did not make Europe any less civilized. The Spanish Inquisition and the Crusade did not make Christianity violent and barbaric. Even the organized torching of Muslims in India by a Hindu mob does not make Hinduism a burning example of violence and barbarism. Yet, these days there are people who would like to identify Islam and the Prophet Muhammad as violent or symbol of violence.

What is immediately clear is that the only like comparison in this paragraph is to Christianity and the Christian inquisitions and crusades; you could also add the wars of religion that accompanied the Protestant reformation and various other violent episodes in Christian history, including the massacre of Jews that reached a climax in the Holocaust.

To me, those episodes absolutely earned Christianity a reputation for violence. Similarly, imperialism and colonialism have a very nasty reputation for violence. It took hundreds of years to de-fang Christianity, and it has a deserved reputation for intolerance to this day.

I don't assume that Muslims are violent; I do think that Islam can reasonably be interpreted as a violent religion; the same is true for Jews and Judaism. Similarly, I don't think that Buddhism can reasonably be interpreted to justify violence, but I think that there are plenty of violent Buddhists (notably the Sinhalese nationalists in Sri Lanka). But this kind of defense simply ignores an indefensible history of violence, and attempts to cover it with misdirection. It isn't helpful.

 

[LuisDantas]

I read it. It doesn't seem to be much different from a lot of other Islamic commentary on this question.

(...)

I don't assume that Muslims are violent; I do think that Islam can reasonably be interpreted as a violent religion; the same is true for Jews and Judaism. Similarly, I don't think that Buddhism can reasonably be interpreted to justify violence, but I think that there are plenty of violent Buddhists (notably the Sinhalese nationalists in Sri Lanka). But this kind of defense simply ignores an indefensible history of violence, and attempts to cover it with misdirection. It isn't helpful.

I agree. I also find that there is a serious flaw in the argument. It attempts to support the idea that the Quran should indeed be accepted as perfect, flawless and immutable by addressing a completely different matter, that of whether violence exists elsewhere.

It is true that violence exists to some degree or another in all or nearly all human groups. But that in no way evidences that the questionable passages of the Quran, and the even more questionable interpretations of same that end up arising, are not to be understood as troublesome.

 

[OurCreed]

I’m a former Christian, and have identified as an atheist for the past two years, roughly. I’ve felt a void of sorts that I cannot explain, and so I’ve been on a path of exploring all types of religions. I doubt I will ever return to Christianity, for there is much that I just don’t believe about that faith.


Having said that, I feel drawn to Islam right now, and would like to know a few things from some here who follow Islam.

Well thanks for the open minded discussion you opened up here. I'll be happy to answer and assist you with anything.

First, do you believe that everything Muhammed said is divinely inspired?

Yes, but he is still a man.

Second, do you fear God? One of the reasons I dislike some religions, is that fear seems to be a large factor.

Fear and love are both the same thing if you think about it. When you adore someone or something, you have two emotions, love and fear. If you are in a relationship, you want to adore that person and show that you love them, but at the same time, you would fear if you did anything which displeased or upset them. Make sense?

Believers love God, and at the same time, fear Him as well. If you love someone and you would do anything for them, then you would never do anything to displease them, right? So despite your actions are done under the banner of love, fear is also a factor.

Third, how do you (personally) atone for sins?

By repentance, and you can do it in any form. True repentance is when you first understand what you did is wrong. A sin by definition is an act which you do that displeases God. So first you gotta realize what you are doing displeases God, then you have to make reformation, to try and improve yourself and displease Him as little as you can.

Asking for forgiveness and praying for it is also done within the 5 daily prayers and in optional prayers and supplications. The prophet Muhammad (saw) never sinned in his life, he was a man who was free from sin from the moment he was born til his demise, yet he prayed for forgiveness to God every single day many times over and over again.

You would think why on earth does he need to pray for forgiveness if he is literally guaranteed paradise? Because he is our example and role model. If he never repented for things that he did, then nobody else would either.

Fourth, can you reject certain tenets of the faith, but accept others? (Is there such a thing as a "lukewarm" Muslim?)

The rules of Islam come from one source, the Qur'an. Everything else is secondary and must coincide with the Qur'an. Now if you believe that the Qur'an is the word of God, then you would accept every part of it. For a true religion, there is no room for a person to accept one part and disregard the other. Also surprisingly, this is something that people actually do in the world we live in, people ignore some parts and accept other parts.

The Qur'an speaks of this very clearly in verses where people accept some parts and reject others of the clear scripture. This is a wrong way of going about and this displeases God.

I’ve read the Qur’an, but I have never applied any of the principles of Islam into my life, but if I’m going to explore it, I want to learn more, now. I’m ready to learn more. I have more questions, but that’s it for now.

Well go for it! I pray you are successful in your endeavors and if you need more help with anything, always pray for guidance and come ask us as well, we'll be here for you.

Assalamualaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu.

May peace, mercy, and blessings be upon you.

 

[OurCreed]

Yes, I hear you.

There is much beauty in Islam to me, but one of the struggles I’ve had with the Abrahamic faiths in general, and why I left Christianity—is that some of the passages on ‘instructions’ for mankind don’t seem to give a person ‘the best’ options. I mean, is the best that we can do is treat someone (women) like children and admonish them by striking them? What? (and children shouldn't be 'struck' either)

I don’t intend to ever marry to be honest, just not something I’m interested in…BUT…if I ever were to, my potential husband is not hitting me. No way. I don’t care what any holy book suggests, even if I’m following said religion. I don’t believe that is the best we can do for humanity…using violence to ‘get our way.’ It isn’t only in Islam, that ‘odd’ commands are noted…and I can’t help but wonder why would an all-powerful God, suggest such a poor instruction? And also, that men are elevated in status to women…as if women need to be ‘kept in line,’ by their mates.


I won’t ever accept this passage.

Also reading this post from you on the last page, I wouldn't want to blame you because you are new to Islamic teachings and are susceptible to wrong interpretations by people. Islam from the Holy Qur'an does not teach for the man to beat his wife, period. Here is a website entirely dedicated to that one Qur'anic verse that people think gives men the right to hit their wives.

Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back.

It's actually very simple. There is just one word that makes all the difference, and it is wrongly translated. People read the 34th verse of chapter 4 and see that there is a word which says 'strike' your wife. That word in Arabic is 'daraba' and it is mistranslated to mean 'strike'.

The actual meaning in relation to the context of the verse is 'cite' or 'indicate' to authorities. Which basically means that if your wife is acting up, the last step is not to beat her, the last step that you may take is to report her actions to a higher authority, not take matters into your own hands.

 

[Deidre]

Also reading this post from you on the last page, I wouldn't want to blame you because you are new to Islamic teachings and are susceptible to wrong interpretations by people. Islam from the Holy Qur'an does not teach for the man to beat his wife, period. Here is a website entirely dedicated to that one Qur'anic verse that people think gives men the right to hit their wives.

Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back.

It's actually very simple. There is just one word that makes all the difference, and it is wrongly translated. People read the 34th verse of chapter 4 and see that there is a word which says 'strike' your wife. That word in Arabic is 'daraba' and it is mistranslated to mean 'strike'.

The actual meaning in relation to the context of the verse is 'cite' or 'indicate' to authorities. Which basically means that if your wife is acting up, the last step is not to beat her, the last step that you may take is to report her actions to a higher authority, not take matters into your own hands.

Well, while I still do read the Qur'an, I'm no longer pursuing Islam. I'm no longer pursuing any religion, and have settled into Deism.
I appreciate your reply very much, though...and everyone else's. I think much of my angst with searching for religion, had a lot to do with my grandmother's death...

 

[muhammad_isa]

God gave us reason, not religion

He gave us both .. There were indeed many prophets that were chosen by Almighty God to convey His message/wisdom to His creatures. We might not understand everything in the Quran and Bible, and often something that we think is bad for us is in fact good for us, and something we think is good for us is bad.

Such is life..

 

[OurCreed]

Well, while I still do read the Qur'an, I'm no longer pursuing Islam. I'm no longer pursuing any religion, and have settled into Deism.
I appreciate your reply very much, though...and everyone else's. I think much of my angst with searching for religion, had a lot to do with my grandmother's death...

Hey no problem, I am very happy for your choice, I truly am. As long as you are someone who is actually thinking about our purpose, and searching for truth, and gaining knowledge and wisdom, you have my 100% support!

Also, if you don't mind me asking, regarding your grandmother's death, I want to say first that I am sorry for your loss, I lost both my grandparents in the last 2.5 years as well, I know the feeling. I just want to know about how you felt and your experience, and how it affected you and the decisions you made.

Keep up the great work as well, stay true to you.