Questions for Atheists and Agnostics

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: Baha’u’llah fulfilled all the Bible prophecies for the Return of Christ, the Messiah of the OT. That could not be true if He was not a Messenger of God

Sir Doom said: That's not definitely true. Try again.

Let’s try this again. What would constitute proof for you?

Sounds like a lot of stress.

You ain’t kidding. Sometimes it is hell on earth.

Need is usually goal-oriented. Need this to get that sort of thing.

But God has no goals, although God has purposes for humans. God does not need to accomplish those purposes but rather God wants humans to accomplish them. For example...

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it......”
The Promised Day is Come, p. 116

How is that different from the context I used it in?

I don’t know. I do not remember what context you used it in.

No one has ever told me that got a sign and they didn't know what it meant. Signs, in my experience, have a 100% success rate. Everyone who gets a sign finds religion. It almost beggars belief.

No, they do not find religion, they find out that God exists, if the sign was truly from God. Then they have to go looking for religion, if they want to know more about God and what God wants.

None of which I (and many others) will never read, thus they have less than 100% success rate. In fact, based on the current estimate there are only 7 million Baha'i. That's 1/10th of a percent.

You are up the creek without a paddle referring to the .1% success rate, because it is not a success rate; it is the percentage of the world population who are Baha’is, but it has nothing to do with the “success” of the Baha’i Faith. The success is measured by whether the goals of the Baha’i Faith have been accomplished and all of the goals have been accomplished to date.

The goal of the Baha’i Faith administration has never been to increase numbers of adherents but rather to expand to as many locations as possible around the world. These goals have been met. The Baha’i Faith has spread to over 250 countries and territories and is almost as widespread as Christianity. Most of this happened during the “formative age” of the Baha’i Faith (1921-1944) FOURTH PERIOD: THE INCEPTION OF THE FORMATIVE AGE OF THE BAHÁ’Í FAITH 1921–1944

Even though everyone has the message ready to be received a vast majority of us will not ever even read it let alone understand it or adopt it. But everyone who gets a sign will. Won't they? Assuming the sign is from the God you speak of, naturally.

The FACT remains that the Baha’i Faith was the fastest growing religion in the world from 1910-2010. Statistics show that from 1910-2010, the Baha’i Faith grew at a rate of 3.54%, whereas during that time Islam grew at a rate of 1.97% and Christianity grew at a rate of 1.32%. Growth of religion - Wikipedia

The Baha’i Faith is a religion that is gaining prominence in the world. In spite of the fact that it is still fairly small it is recognized by governments all over the world. Governments Recognize Baha’u’llah’s Bicentenary—Globally

There is no way to predict the future and know what the future holds for the Baha’i Faith, so you cannot say that a vast majority of the world population will not ever even read it let alone understand it or adopt it.

Why should God send everyone in the world a sign, when God can instead send a Messenger who can communicate to all of humanity? Even if God sent everyone a sign, that is all they would have, a sign. They would know God exists but they would not know anything about God or want God wants them to do.

I meant because I challenge his authority.

It never works to challenge the Authority of an Omnipotent God, for obvious logical reasons. I know that from experience.

Again, you've missed my point. There is nothing more or less necessary about a messenger vs individual communication. Neither is necessary at all. Neither task is difficult or complex to omnipotent God thus the only real factor is success of the goal.

That is true, but who do you think sets the goal? God is the one communicating so God sets the goal. The goal is not that 100% of people get the message; the goal is that those who are sincere and make the effort get the message. That is one reason God does not communicate directly to everyone because then God could not distinguish between the godly and the ungodly, referred to as the wheat and the chaff in the Bible.

So, success for God is getting as much wheat as He can get to believe in Him and His Messenger. God leaves the chaff to themselves.

Not we. God. Why does God need messengers? That is the question.

I will work on that and maybe post a new thread on that on the weekend. Like I said, it is a big subject. Meanwhile, it is not that God needs Messengers, it is that humans need Messengers... The reason God does not communicate directly with humans (other than Messengers) is because of human limitations to be able to understand God without a Mediator (Messenger).

No. I am not an atheist. I was talking about the atheist in your anecdote, remember?

What are you then, an agnostic?

 

[Trailblazer]

How do you make a choice to not believe something g when there is nothing to chose from to which this action is even possible?

For example, that's like saying I chose not to believe I have two biological mothers. It doesn't make sense logically so I have no reason to believe since it's false to begin with.

How do you chose to not believe something that doesn't exist in order to form a belief or rejection about it?

That analogy does not make logical sense because it is impossible for you to have two biological mothers but it is not impossible for God to exist. God is not false to begin with since we cannot prove God does not exist.

We can prove god does not exist and the nature of god. I explained it so many times but no one addresses my statements. They just went to argue repetitive debates without moving on to a different topic relating to gods existence.

We can prove neither one of this things.

My question is how do I chose not to believe something that does not exist to begin with?

I did not mention god in this question so his existence is irrelevant to it.

People can chose (a) not to believe something that does not exist, or (b) to believe in something that does not exist.

I do not recommend you doing (a) or (b). It is stupid to believe in something that does not exist.

 

[Trailblazer]

Excellent post... I like how you reason things out. It is logical.
Just one thing I want to address:

Bird123 said: What you or anyone decides to do with that truth is entirely up to them. On the other hand, I have pointed a direction by which one can Discover for themselves.

Ecco said: I'm sure that with a little effort I could find similar statements from Jesus, Jehova, Bahá’u’lláh, Muhammed, Jim Jones, Marshall Applewhite, et al.

Jesus, Muhammed, Bahá’u’lláh would not tell you they have pointed a direction by which one can Discover truth for themselves. They would tell you that you have to go through them to get the Truth about God. After that then you can go on to discover more truth for yourself.

John 14:6 “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

What Baha’u’llah wrote about God below means the same thing, although Baha’u’llah was referring to ALL the Manifestations of God (what I usually refer to as Messengers), not just Jesus:

“He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49

 

[Trailblazer]

Let's go back to the beginning ...
ecco said: So, like most other religions Baha’i Law permits sexual relations only between a man and wife.

Why so uptight? Does Baha’i teach that life is just black and white? Does Baha’i not recognize there are many shades of gray between?
Does Baha’i not recognize homosexuals, bi-sexuals, transgenders?

You responded...
Trailblazer said: Why do you consider that uptight?

Here are some of your comments and quotes from your religious leaders:
Because premarital sex is not good for society
Because life is about more than physical pleasure.
'The Bahá’í Faith recognizes the value of the sex impulse, but condemns its illegitimate and improper expressions such as free love,
The Bahá’ís do not believe in the suppression of the sex impulse but in its regulation and control.'
According to the Bahá’í Teachings no sexual act can be considered lawful unless performed between lawfully married persons.
Outside of marital life there can be no lawful or healthy use of the sex impulse.
'Amongst the many other evils afflicting society in this spiritual low water mark in history is the question of immorality, and over-emphasis of sex…'
"Masturbation is clearly not a proper use of the sex instinct, as this is understood in the Faith.
'Such a chaste and holy life, with its implications of modesty, purity, temperance, decency, and clean-mindedness, involves no less than the exercise of moderation in all that pertains to dress, language, amusements, and all artistic and literary avocations. It demands daily vigilance in the control of one's carnal desires and corrupt inclinations.'
“Sex is primarily about reproduction. That's why it even exists in the first place.
So, just as, if not more so, uptight as the beliefs of many other religions, especially from the more fundamentalist followers.

Actually, regarding sexual behavior, the Baha’i “standards” are higher than the standards of the older religions. I do not consider that uptight. It is religious Law. The moral laxity in modern culture in the Western world is eating away at the very fiber of society. I do not consider it “uptight” to require people to be married before they have sex. I consider it prudent and beneficial for the soul; but if you are an atheist you do not believe in a soul so it is a moot point. Regarding sex, most people just want what they want like a little kid who wants candy from mommy. I consider this childish as well as selfish.

Trailblazer said: I do not expect you to understand this because you are an atheist.

ecco said: One does not have to be an atheist to believe in evolution. If one understands evolution then one realizes that most of the things "frowned upon" by uptight theists are very natural.

But one does have to be an atheist to believe that man is no more than a mere animal. The caveat is that we are animals but we are not like other animals. What is natural for animals is not natural for humans because we are spiritual beings, not physical bodies. The quote from my Baha’i friend bears repeating:

“Our spiritual nature cannot be developed except by "dying to self" and "living in God." God has given us a dual nature: one material and one spiritual. Sex is part of the material nature, however much it may be able to play a role in a truly loving relationship. It is not what we are, even though people insist that it is. God is calling us to struggle against our lower nature and to become who we truly are: not material beings, not sexual beings, but spiritual beings who are in control of the physical side of our nature and who can thus find true happiness living in conformity with His will. Although not scriptural, there is a possible explanation of why He has made it so hard that I ran across long ago in a Baha'i children's book: Because if it were too easy, it wouldn't be worth anything. Or put another way, because only by being challenged can we really prove our love for God.”

One of the most telling comments from your post is:

The Bahá’ís do not believe in the suppression of the sex impulse but in its regulation and control.'

That's really what this is all about: Regulation and control and providing a big platform for instilling guilt on followers. Guilt which can be assuaged by prayer, confessions, tithing and dependence on the god for forgiveness. Do you see the circle? It's something religions have done for millennia. It's a vital tactic for keeping followers in line.

The Baha’i Laws do not originate from religious leaders, they originate from Baha’u’llah who wrote the Book of Laws. Allowing sex only in marriage is not suppressing the sex instinct.

Guilt can be assuaged by following the Baha’i Laws, if one is a Baha’i. If one is not a Baha’i, they are not responsible to adhere to Baha’i Laws. There is no confession in the Baha’i Faith. We can say prayers for forgiveness though. However, it is not a big deal if one slips up on sexual behavior as long as they do not make it public or commit adultery, which is a serious offense in the sight of God.

RE: Masturbation, homosexuality, etc...

Trailblazer said: All are equal in the sight of God. The Baha Laws on sex are mostly geared towards what is best for society as a whole, although they are also beneficial for the individual.

ecco said:"Beneficial for the individual"? Then please explain why suicide rates are far higher among homosexuals and transgenders than for straights.

I certainly do not think it is logical to conclude that their suicide rates are far higher because of any religious laws that exist that prohibit sexual activity. More likely it is because people discriminate against them for their sexual orientation. Baha’is do not discriminate. We simply have a religious laws but we do not expect anyone who is not a Baha’i to adhere to them.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: Besides that, all we have to do is look at what results from teenagers having sex out of wedlock. It results in unwanted pregnancies and girls dropping out of high school, not to mention the babies that are born without parents who are capable of caring for them, or worse yet abortions.

ecco said: Better sexual education and access to contraception lead to fewer unwanted pregnancies. Yet religions fight to suppress these because it encourages extra-marital sex. Per your comments:

The Bahá’í youth should ... be taught the lesson of self-control.

I stand by my comment. Self-control is good for the character, not only in matters of sex. There is no reason why people have to have sex out of wedlock except that they want to. If having unbridled sex is more important than God, then one might want to ask themselves if they really want to be a Baha’i.

But like I said, nobody is looking through anyone's bedroom windows. We all have our issues to contend with. Certain character defects such as dishonesty, hate, harsh criticism of others, jealousy and envy are far worse than violations of sexual laws. What matters most is sincerity and effort. The Spirit of the Law is more important than the Letter of the Law.

 

[Trailblazer]

From your post #693...

ecco said: ↑
I sometimes have “issues” with God and how He created the world in which suffering is inherent...
But if I was an atheist, I would not have to blame God for it.

True. You would just have to accept the reality of the universe.​

Please do not put your words into a box showing that I made those comments.

I thought it was clear that the bold was what I had said, but now I can see how it can be confusing. Sorry for the confusion. I will make sure I make it clearer in posts from now on.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: Nobody can prove that God exists, except to themselves.

ecco said: The word "prove" is misused in your comment.

Anyone can convince themselves that their god exists and that all other gods are mere creations of man's imaginings.

True, anyone can convince themselves, but that does not mean that all people convince themselves. Some people become convinced after having done their homework.

Nobody can objectively prove that God exists, but they can prove to themselves that God exists by doing adequate research and investigation of a religion. Then they know. It is an inner sense of certitude and not something you can understand unless you have it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: some atheists are avidly searching for God.

ecco said: I haven't read any comments from any atheists on this or any forum that would substantiate that comment.
I don't personally know any atheists that are avidly searching for God.

That is because you have not been on the forums I am on. I spend most of my time answering posts to atheists, many of whom desperately want to know if God exists... This has been going on for several years. I would call that avidly searching for God.

 

[lukethethird]

True, anyone can convince themselves, but that does not mean that all people convince themselves. Some people become convinced after having done their homework.

Nobody can objectively prove that God exists, but they can prove to themselves that God exists by doing adequate research and investigation of a religion. Then they know. It is an inner sense of certitude and not something you can understand unless you have it.

If nobody can objectively prove that God exists then why don't we quit right there while we're ahead?

 

[Sir Doom]

Let’s try this again. What would constitute proof for you?

Proof is for scientists. I only need to be convinced. I asked for something definitely true that could not be true if Bahaullah was not a messenger. You offered his 'fulfillment' of prophecy. That is him being a messenger. You are saying that him being the messenger is definitely true about him being the messenger. Ridiculous.

You ain’t kidding. Sometimes it is hell on earth.

I'll tell you my trick (this works for videogames too). If it feels like I am neglecting things that should be important... Then I am. Time to take a rest.

But God has no goals, although God has purposes for humans. God does not need to accomplish those purposes but rather God wants humans to accomplish them. For example...

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it......”
The Promised Day is Come, p. 116

Can you explain the literal, functional or fundamental difference between a goal and a purpose?

I don’t know. I do not remember what context you used it in.

The question was rhetorical. There is no difference between our context. You have simply reversed your position on tailoring.

No, they do not find religion, they find out that God exists, if the sign was truly from God. Then they have to go looking for religion, if they want to know more about God and what God wants.

I'm pretty sure I was talking about my experience, thus I assure you 100% of people don't have talked to me about receiving a sign have done so by way of explaining why they are religious. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt for the thread.

You are up the creek without a paddle referring to the .1% success rate, because it is not a success rate; it is the percentage of the world population who are Baha’is, but it has nothing to do with the “success” of the Baha’i Faith. The success is measured by whether the goals of the Baha’i Faith have been accomplished and all of the goals have been accomplished to date.

Wrong. Success is measured by God's intention in this case. God wishes a message to be delivered. God does not fail. But you insist that Messengers are the way God uses despite it's literal failure right now to do so. But then God may sometimes maybe possibly sometimes zap a complete atheist with the proof they need such that they abandon their entire worldview to follow a religion. That's a successful communication. It doesn't matter whether God does this for everyone on Earth or not. Every time God sends a sign the recipient gets the message. Everytime God sends a messenger they flounder in obscurity for decades before even parting their lips with God's message let alone the decades after to disiminate the message once again in obscurity. And now how long after Bahaullahs death and you struggle to bring me God's message 4th hand. That's failed communication. Do you understand?

The goal of the Baha’i Faith administration has never been to increase numbers of adherents but rather to expand to as many locations as possible around the world. These goals have been met. The Baha’i Faith has spread to over 250 countries and territories and is almost as widespread as Christianity. Most of this happened during the “formative age” of the Baha’i Faith (1921-1944) FOURTH PERIOD: THE INCEPTION OF THE FORMATIVE AGE OF THE BAHÁ’Í FAITH 1921–1944

The FACT remains that the Baha’i Faith was the fastest growing religion in the world from 1910-2010. Statistics show that from 1910-2010, the Baha’i Faith grew at a rate of 3.54%, whereas during that time Islam grew at a rate of 1.97% and Christianity grew at a rate of 1.32%. Growth of religion - Wikipedia

The Baha’i Faith is a religion that is gaining prominence in the world. In spite of the fact that it is still fairly small it is recognized by governments all over the world. Governments Recognize Baha’u’llah’s Bicentenary—Globally

Irrelevant. Baha'i s goals are not disputed by me. That's on y'all.

There is no way to predict the future and know what the future holds for the Baha’i Faith, so you cannot say that a vast majority of the world population will not ever even read it let alone understand it or adopt it.

I'm talking about right now. Majority of people alive right now will never read bahaullahs words.

Why should God send everyone in the world a sign, when God can instead send a Messenger who can communicate to all of humanity? Even if God sent everyone a sign, that is all they would have, a sign. They would know God exists but they would not know anything about God or want God wants them to do.

It is not my calling in life to decide what God should or shouldn't do. The simple answer here is because the messenger doesn't communicate to all if humanity. God is more than capable of that if so desired.

It never works to challenge the Authority of an Omnipotent God, for obvious logical reasons. I know that from experience.

Speak for yourself.

That is true, but who do you think sets the goal? God is the one communicating so God sets the goal. The goal is not that 100% of people get the message; the goal is that those who are sincere and make the effort get the message. That is one reason God does not communicate directly to everyone because then God could not distinguish between the godly and the ungodly, referred to as the wheat and the chaff in the Bible.

Again, you limit God. God could not distinguish wheat from chaff? Are you sure about that?

So, success for God is getting as much wheat as He can get to believe in Him and His Messenger. God leaves the chaff to themselves.

You just don't get how elitist and self-aggrandizing that sounds, do you?

I will work on that and maybe post a new thread on that on the weekend. Like I said, it is a big subject. Meanwhile, it is not that God needs Messengers, it is that humans need Messengers... The reason God does not communicate directly with humans (other than Messengers) is because of human limitations to be able to understand God without a Mediator (Messenger).

Don't bother. It's an impossible task.

What are you then, an agnostic?

I am Doom. The inevitable tragedy. Yes, mostly agnostic.

 

[Trailblazer]

What a contradictory word salad...

• Muhammad got a direct revelation from God
• dictated by Muhammad, and others wrote it down
• not revealed by a Messenger of God
• so they are not the Word of God.

• There is nothing contradictory at all...

* Muhammad received a direct revelation from God.
* Muhammad dictated that direct revelation to others who wrote it down for Him since He was illiterate.
* “just that they were not revealed by a Messenger of God (which Baha’is usually refer to as a Manifestation of God), so they are not the Word of God....” refers to anyone who did not get a direct revelation from God...

Obviously, if “they” did not get a get a direct revelation from God then “they” were not Messengers of God, so whatever “they” wrote, if they wrote anything, is not the Word of God.

Here is the list of known Manifestations of God: Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah.There are some others who Baha’u’llah mentions in The Kitab-i-Iqan and there might be others Baha’u’llah did not mention, but they are not Major Prophets.

God says to Muhammad: A,B and C are true; D and E are false
Muhammad says to his scribes: A,B and C are true; D and E are false

How is Muhammad not a true Messenger?
How is the Koran not the word of god?

In any case, Muslims believe Muhammad did the actual writing. Baha'is cannot disprove this. Did God tell Bahá'u'lláh that Muhammad was lying when he said he did the actual writing?

Muhammad absolutely IS a true Messenger.
The Koran absolutely IS the word of God.
Baha’is are required to believe that.

As I said, I do not know that much about Muhammad, I just know the Baha’i position, that He was illiterate so he did not write the Qur’an Himself. Moreover, it really does not matter of Muhammad did the actual writing because Baha’is still consider what is in the Qur’an to be authentic. Baha’u’llah wrote most of His own Writings but also dictated some of His Writings to His secretary and then stamped the Tablets with His official seal. The latter are just as good as the former because we know He wrote them

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If nobody can objectively prove that God exists then why don't we quit right there while we're ahead?

Because it is the heart that connects. If we talk about God, the attributes of God increase within us and we will reach a stage in life when the balance is tipped and we are offered a choice.

Peace be with you

 

[Trailblazer]

Tens of thousands of gods/religions over tens of thousands of years. No True God/Religion.

In 1844 someone comes up with a new version and 174 years later you believe it is the "True Religion". Moreover, you believe that your viewpoint is logical.

The fact that there have been tens of thousands of gods/religions over tens of thousands of years does not in any way prove that there is no True God/Religion. To say that is illogical.

It is true that the world is full of gods/religions that claim to be the True Religion, but logically speaking that does not mean that there is not One True Religion of God.

Put another way, there have been many false gods and false religions throughout history (that were created by humans), but logically speaking that does not mean that there is not One True Religion of One True God.

It is the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization to conclude that just because there have been many false gods and many false religions that means there cannot be a True Religion of God.

I absolutely believe it is logical; the Baha’i Faith is the most logical religion that has ever existed, the only logical religion. That is the main reason I believe in it. I was not even looking for a religion or for God when I stumbled upon the Baha’i Faith. I believed it because it was logical. I have no mushy gushy feelings about God and I am not much for organized religion, but I cannot deny what is so obviously the truth from God.

In brief, the primary underpinning theology of the Baha’i Faith is Progressive Revelation, which means that all the major religions who had a legitimate Messenger of God are true; but each religion is time/date stamped, so it is only applicable to a given period of time in history (a dispensation). It is not logical to think that an All-Loving and Just God would reveal one religion for all time and single it out as the “One True Religion” as Jews and Christians believe, leaving all the followers of the other religions as errant. At least Muslims recognize all the True Religions that preceded them; the problem is that they do not recognize any Messengers who came after Muhammad (the Bab and Baha’u’llah).

There have not been “tens of thousands of REAL Gods or REAL Religions” over tens of thousands of years. There has always been Only One God, the God who revealed all the REAL religions since the dawn of human history. I cannot say exactly how many REAL religions there have been, since some of those religions predate the art of writing.

Human beings can be wrong and they can make up stories, so there might have been tens of thousands of imaginary gods and imaginary religions represented by those imaginary gods, but that does not in any way negate the REAL religions that were revealed by the One True God to Messengers (Manifestations of God).

All of what I said makes perfect logical sense.

Finally, the one who came in 1844 was the Bab who was not just “someone.” He was one of the sustaining pillars of the Primal Word of God.

“THE substance wherewith God hath created Me is not the clay out of which others have been formed. He hath conferred upon Me that which the worldly-wise can never comprehend, nor the faithful discover … I am one of the sustaining pillars of the Primal Word of God. Whosoever hath recognized Me, hath known all that is true and right, and hath attained all that is good and seemly; and whosoever hath failed to recognize Me, hath turned away from all that is true and right and hath succumbed to everything evil and unseemly.”
Selections From the Writings of the Báb, p. 11

There is a brief and informative history of Baha'i here...
BBC - Religions - Bahai: Origins of Bahá'í history

That appears to be a good synopsis of the origins of the Baha’i Faith.

Its origins and progressions are no different than any other religion/sect.

Someone is upset with the way things are.
Someone "borrows" from other religions.
Someone starts preaching that His religion is the True religion.
Someone gets a following.
Someone's followers all believe Their religion is the True religion.

No, that is not exactly what happened.

ecco said: Someone is upset with the way things are.
Trailblazer said: God is upset about the way things are so God sends a new Messenger; first the Bab who came to announce the Coming of Baha’u’llah, and then nine years later, Baha’u’llah, who was the Promised One of All ages.

ecco said: Someone "borrows" from other religions.
Trailblazer said: Baha’u’llah received a “new revelation” from God. He did not borrow anything from the previous religions, although he reiterated and renewed the eternal spiritual verities of all the previous religions, He received an entirely separate revelation from God.

ecco said: Someone starts preaching that His religion is the True religion.
Trailblazer said: That did happen.

ecco said: Someone gets a following.
Trailblazer said: That did happen.

ecco said: Someone's followers all believe Their religion is the True religion.
Trailblazer said: That did happen.

So do you have a point to make? If you are trying to say that the Baha’i Faith is no different from all the previous religions that is the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization and the Fallacy of Jumping to conclusions

Hasty generalization usually shows this pattern:

1. religion a did x, y and x
2. religion b did x, y and x
3. religion c did x, y and x
4. religion d did x, y and x
5. religion e did x, y and x
6. religion f did x, y and x
7. religion g did x, y and x

8. Therefore, religion h (in this case the Baha’i Faith) will also do x, y and z.

In a sense that is true, because all the major religions have the same eternal spiritual verities, and all the religions have a specific message and social teachings and laws.

However, there is one important difference. The Bab inaugurated a whole new religious Cycle, called the Cycle of Fulfillment (because Baha’u’llah fulfilled all the prophecies of all the major religions of the past). This is a New Day of God that is unprecedented in human history; so it is not the same old same old. We are living in the “time of the end” referred to in the Bible, but it is not going to be the end of the world. Quite the contrary: it is the Beginning of a New World wherein the Kingdom of God will be established on earth.

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it......

What we witness at the present time, during “this gravest crisis in the history of civilization,” recalling such times in which “religions have perished and are born,” is the adolescent stage in the slow and painful evolution of humanity, preparatory to the attainment of the stage of manhood, the stage of maturity, the promise of which is embedded in the teachings, and enshrined in the prophecies, of Bahá’u’lláh. The tumult of this age of transition is characteristic of the impetuosity and irrational instincts of youth, its follies, its prodigality, its pride, its self-assurance, its rebelliousness, and contempt of discipline.”
The Promised Day is Come, pp. 116-117

Do you watch any TV news? Do you see what is going on in the United States, in the world? The old world order is being rolled up, just as Baha’u’llah predicted 155 years ago and a new world order is arising arise in its stead:

“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7

Unfortunately, only Baha’is understand what is happening in the world and why, but that will change over time when people finally recognize Baha’u’llah...

“.... For it is only when the spirit has thoroughly permeated the world that the people will begin to enter the Faith in large numbers. At the beginning of the spring only the few, exceptionally favoured seeds will sprout, but when the season gets in its full sway, and the atmosphere gets permeated with the warmth of true springtime, then masses of flowers will begin to appear, and a whole hillside suddenly blooms. We are still in the state when only isolated souls are awakened, but soon we shall have the full swing of the season and the quickening of whole groups and nations into the spiritual life breathed by Bahá'u'lláh."
(Letter 18 February 1932, on behalf of Shoghi Effendi)​

 

[Trailblazer]

If nobody can objectively prove that God exists then why don't we quit right there while we're ahead?

Because it is not necessary to prove that God exists objectively in order to know that God exists. If one has good enough evidence that indicates that God exists, that constitutes proof for that person who is viewing the evidence. For me personally, the Revelation of Baha'u'llah is proof that God exists, all the proof I need.

Obviously, if God exists it would be impossible to prove that objectively since God is not a material Being, so I reasoned it out that it is impossible to have objective evidence of God and went looking for evidence that indicates that God exists... for me that evidence was Baha'u'llah, who was a Manifestation of God, God's Representative on earth.

 

[Trailblazer]

You think like mankind. Widen your view. In reality, God has no servants. God has no messengers. God is not Unreachable.

I think like mankind because I am mankind. I am not God. In reality, we are all God’s servants. In reality, God had Messengers. In reality, God is unreachable except through those Messengers.

You are right. Beliefs do not prevent discovery. For this to be possibly one can not value beliefs over discovery. Beliefs merely point a direction by which one can search for the truth.

I value the Revelation of Baha’u’llah over anything I can discover on my own because it is the Word of God. I can never know as much as a Messenger from God who has the knowledge of God.

Religions teach people to value beliefs above all else. That is because beliefs are all they have. They will not correct errors nor venture into undiscovered country to Discover what they do not know. This is why science will discover God before religion will. You might not see this but science is walking toward God.

Religious beliefs that come from revelation are Truth. That is why they are above all else. That is not all I have but it is the most important thing I have.

Science will never discover God. Nobody will ever discover God. God is a mystery no mind can ever fathom.

I find it funny how religions get people to belief their words are God's words or that some messenger's words are God's words. When do people Question?? To Question is the start on the journey to Discovery.

I questioned it before I believed it. The Messenger’s Words are God’s Words.

I have heard the Voice of God. I have not found any religion that really Understands God. On the other hand, each carries parts of the picture.

Only Messengers of God have heard the Voice of God. No human being has ever heard the Voice of God. All True religions understand God because they reveal God.

Your quote:Not all people are interested in searching for God. God leaves that up to the individual. However, if they do not search, they will not find.

My Answer: True, indeed. This leaves the question. If they do not want to find God, why do they follow religion? Of course, there are a million variables and a million different answers to that. How about you? Are you so convinced God is unreachable you do not try? Do you want to find God? What hold does religion have on you?

I was referring to atheists who are not interested in searching for God. They don’t want to find God do they do not follow a religion.

I already found God, in the Revelation of Baha’u’llah. I will continue to learn more about God as time goes on, for every Word of God has many, many meanings. I will also learn more about God in by observing Creation.

The hold religion has on me is that it is the Truth from God. I want that Truth because it is far superior to any truth from man.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That analogy does not make logical sense because it is impossible for you to have two biological mothers but it is not impossible for God to exist. God is not false to begin with since we cannot prove God does not exist.

That's the point. I don't see the creator making sense. It's just like saying two biological mothers. It's an analogy of comparison.

We can prove neither one of this things.

We can. That doesn't mean everyone wants to.

People can chose (a) not to believe something that does not exist, or (b) to believe in something that does not exist.

That's choosing not to believe someone figment of their imagination. What exactly are they choosing not not to exist? What is that something?

I do not recommend you doing (a) or (b). It is stupid to believe in something that does not exist.

That's my point. It's the same with god. I feel it's silly to believe on god as a deity of some sort. Thats why I don't believe in Pagan gods nor incarnations of brahma etc.

I mean god as an experience for I understand and I can define it. I can "see" god as an experience. I cant make sense of a deity. I can disagree with the concept of idea or what's written but it's silly to say I can chose to disagree with the actual object not present to even form any opinion on.

 

[ChristineM]

Perhaps, I see more than you realize. What does Evolution, Fractals and Quantum Entanglement tell you about God? If you tell me nothing, then there is something you might not see. Perhaps, it's something to work on.

Not a thing, what does Evolution, Fractals and Quantum Entanglement tell you about wardrobes? Yes both statements are equally irrelevant.

 

[ArtieE]

That is because you have not been on the forums I am on. I spend most of my time answering posts to atheists, many of whom desperately want to know if God exists... This has been going on for several years. I would call that avidly searching for God.

I am an atheist, or more precisely an apatheist. I'm not searching for any gods. What interests me is human psychology and what goes on in the heads of people that make them believe that gods exist and how this evolved. Evolutionary origin of religions - Wikipedia

 

[ArtieE]

Unfortunately, only Baha’is understand what is happening in the world and why, but that will change over time when people finally recognize Baha’u’llah...

“.... For it is only when the spirit has thoroughly permeated the world that the people will begin to enter the Faith in large numbers. At the beginning of the spring only the few, exceptionally favoured seeds will sprout, but when the season gets in its full sway, and the atmosphere gets permeated with the warmth of true springtime, then masses of flowers will begin to appear, and a whole hillside suddenly blooms. We are still in the state when only isolated souls are awakened, but soon we shall have the full swing of the season and the quickening of whole groups and nations into the spiritual life breathed by Bahá'u'lláh."
(Letter 18 February 1932, on behalf of Shoghi Effendi)​

This is from 1932. Name some of those whole groups and nations that have "quickened".

 

[Trailblazer]

I am an atheist, or more precisely an apatheist. I'm not searching for any gods. What interests me is human psychology and what goes on in the heads of people that make them believe that gods exist and how this evolved. Evolutionary origin of religions - Wikipedia

Clearly, not all atheists are searching for God, only some are.

I am also very interested in psychology. I studied it for years and I have an advanced degree in counseling psychology. I have only recently come to be interested in God, even though I have believed in God for about 48 years.