Questions for Atheists and Agnostics

[Trailblazer]

You do not understand. You do not accept that God exists or not. You are searching for Truth. You must be open for all possibilities.

In searching for anything not just God, one must define parameters of what they are searching for.

The Ebb and Flow of true knowledge when incorporated helps define the parameters of what one searches. Example: If one is to make a car, all cars must have an engine, a method of stopping, a place to sit, and let's not forget steering. Do you understand?

Incorporate Ebb and Flow with what is around you. Bunch until you discover something.

I am not searching for God; I already know God exists. Now, I am searching to know more about God and get closer to God in my heart.

One can come up with any belief to prevent a journey to Discovery. There is learning in the process. I have given way too many short cuts as it is. Remember, I had no one to point me to a starting point.

I do not think that religious beliefs prevent Discovery, not unless they are so rigid that they restrict free thinking, such as certain doctrines that tell us what we are supposed to believe.

God's messengers?? In a way, everyone is God's messengers. No one lives without doing something for God whether they realize it or not. Just being you is enough.

I believe we are all God’s servants and that is the highest station to which we can attain. One thing an Omnipotent God cannot be is a servant which is why God wants us to occupy that station.

The “Messengers of God” heard the Voice of God through the Holy Spirit and they revealed what they heard to humanity in scriptures, a form we can understand. If we avail ourselves of that revelation and share it with others then we can be messengers as well as servants of God.

The idea that God is unreachable has been taught by religion since the beginning. They want you to believe you must go through them or what they say.

I believe that God is unreachable. The only way we can know anything about God is through what the Messengers of God reveal, which is not very much, but all we need to know and are able to understand. I do not believe we can have any direct intercourse with God because God is ineffable, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. Only the Messengers can understand God, because they have a divine nature as well as a human nature, but how they understand God is beyond what we are able to comprehend.

We are spiritual beings trapped in a physical body. God is Spiritual as well. Never think anything is unreachable. It's not true. In fact, everyone already knows God.

I agree with that wholeheartedly. We are spiritual beings, not physical bodies. If we are in tune with our spiritual nature then our thoughts will be on the spiritual world and not this physical one. We have to live in this world but we do not have to be “of this world.”

your quote;“The vitality of men’s belief in God is dying out in every land; nothing short of His wholesome medicine can ever restore it. The corrosion of ungodliness is eating into the vitals of human society; what else but the Elixir of His potent Revelation can cleanse and revive it? Is it within human power, O Hakím, to effect in the constituent elements of any of the minute and indivisible particles of matter so complete a transformation as to transmute it into purest gold? Perplexing and difficult as this may appear, the still greater task of converting satanic strength into heavenly power is one that We have been empowered to accomplish. The Force capable of such a transformation transcendeth the potency of the Elixir itself. The Word of God, alone, can claim the distinction of being endowed with the capacity required for so great and far-reaching a change.”

My answer: This is NOT what it's all about!!! You just must get beyond the surface. More is going on than you could ever keep up with. The Dynamics are amazing.

I do not know what you mean by that. What do you think it is “all about?” What do you think is beyond the surface? How do you know I am not aware of that?

It has never ever been about believing. Why do people think God needs a middle man?

I believe that God needs a middleman (or what I call a Mediator) to receive and transmit information that God wants humans to have. I do not believe we can get information directly from God.

On the journey to discovery, one must be open for all possibilities, including God does not exist. On the other hand one can not refuse to search for God because they do not want God to exist. You see. It works both ways.

I am not open to the possibility that God does not exist; I know God exists. I know because of the Revelation of Baha’u’llah. That constitutes proof for me.

Not all people are interested in searching for God. God leaves that up to the individual. However, if they do not search, they will not find.

AS I see it, it is just a matter of time that science will Discover God. They walk toward God and do not realize it. Sure, it will take a long time, but it will happen long before religion discovers God. Maybe you too.

Science will never “discover God.” God is ineffable, immensely exalted beyond all that can ever be perceived. The acme of human understanding is our confession of helplessness to ever be able to understand the mystery of the Living God.

“Wert thou to ponder in thine heart, from now until the end that hath no end, and with all the concentrated intelligence and understanding which the greatest minds have attained in the past or will attain in the future, this divinely ordained and subtle Reality, this sign of the revelation of the All-Abiding, All-Glorious God, thou wilt fail to comprehend its mystery or to appraise its virtue. Having recognized thy powerlessness to attain to an adequate understanding of that Reality which abideth within thee, thou wilt readily admit the futility of such efforts as may be attempted by thee, or by any of the created things, to fathom the mystery of the Living God, the Day Star of unfading glory, the Ancient of everlasting days. This confession of helplessness which mature contemplation must eventually impel every mind to make is in itself the acme of human understanding, and marketh the culmination of man’s development.”Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 165-166

All we are able to know about God are some Attributes of God that are revealed by Messengers and reflected in Creation. We can also know God’s will for man in every age because it is revealed by the Messengers of God, but we can never know the intrinsic nature of God. Not even the Messengers know that. God sits on the All-Highest Throne, the Habitation of everlasting might and glory. We cannot know any more about God than Messengers reveal. The “sacred Lote-Tree” refers to the Sadratu’l-Muntahá, the “Tree beyond which there is no passing” symbolically referring to Baha’u’llah.

 

[Trailblazer]

Their qualifications is too big of an area to cover. That is like asking me to show you all the United States in one day.

Let's start with Florida. Tell me something that is definitely true about Bahuallah that could not be true unless he were a messenger of God.

Baha’u’llah fulfilled all the Bible prophecies for the Return of Christ, the Messiah of the OT. That could not be true if He was not a Messenger of God

I'm curious why you would be conflicted about posting on forums? I find it to be thoroughly thrilling.

I am glad I am not the only one. I guess I share your sentiments but the problem is I have things I should be doing and I never get them done because I “live” on the forums. I wish I did not have three houses but I do. I also have 10 cats and a full time job and a three hour bike commute. Yet I find people fascinating, since psychology is my other hat. And now I find God fascinating so that is why I cannot extricate myself form forums.

What do you mean by that?

I mean that when one's every whim is satisfied need and want are identical.

I see what you mean, but I still do not think God has what we think of as needs or wants, since God is fully self-sufficient.However, that does not preclude God wanting humans to have things God has to give them. God does not need for us to have anything, but God wants us to have them, for our own benefit.

I don’t think you would like it if He really did.

Like I said, God needs me. Nothing to worry about.

You are pretty sure of yourself aren’t you? In a sense you might be right, because God might have a “purpose” for you that you do not know yet, you being such a cool guy.

I am not rejecting the notion of getting signs; that is just not the same as hearing a Voice and getting a full data base revealed to you.

You literally said that God is not a tailor and then described him as tailoring. Seriously.

The context in which I meant tailor is that God does not tailor to each individual how He is going to communicate to humans... A sign is a sign, a Voice is a voice. One is a text that says “I exist” and the other is a book that says what I exist and this is why I exist and this is what I want you to do.

That is pretty much it, except that over time more than 1% of people get the message. As in the case of the message of Jesus, most everyone in the world knows about Jesus and His message, even though about one third of the world believe in Jesus.

And still paltry numbers in comparison to the 100% success rate of signs.

But everyone does not get a sign so it is not 100%. In fact it is probably a lot less than 1%, and of course you do not get any useful information with that sign. Why would anyone want to know that God exists if they cannot know anything about God or what God wants them to do?.

That both methods are fundamentally identical and the only difference is that one works and one doesn't. The messenger being the one that doesn't.

The methods are not identical because the sign does not convey information. Baha’u’llah wrote upwards of 15,000 Tablets.

Well, he must not like me much.

It is not that. It is that you might not need a sign. The jury is still out on that. God does not just go handing out signs to everyone, like a guy on a street corner handing out fliers. If you really need a sign and you ask for a sign there is a chance you will get one, but you’d have to be able to understand the sign. It is like Johnny wants dad to get him a new bike but he needs to be able to ride that bike. Dad is not going to get Johnny a ten speed until he is old enough to ride one.

Unnecessary? Hmm... Didn't you just say God doesn't need anything? Wouldn't that mean that everything is unnecessary and thus can't rule out anything based on it's unnecessaryness? Think about it...

I meant it is unnecessary for every human on earth to each get a separate message, and as such it is unnecessary for God to send 7 billion messages, all containing the same information.

Your thinking is right though. It is not necessary for God to send any messages at all because God doesn't need anything for Himself. God only communicates with humanity for humanity’s sake, not for God’s sake. It is a free gift, since God is not obligated to give it.

“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 140

In any case, you'll have to show that Messengers are necessary to make this argument work. And you can't do that. You are welcome to try.

Stay tuned to this channel and I will demonstrate that. This is such a big subject, I don’t know where to even start. I could start by finding some passages in Gleanings and explaining what they mean, a weekend project for sure – Why do we need Messengers of God?

What is unlucky about it?

I was continuing the previous notion that they are either better or worse. With the parentheses it's meant to be read as both lucky and unlucky.

“Unless you happen to be the (un)lucky atheist you know who got a sign.”

Okay I get it now. You are not so sure you want a sign from God. You might have a good point. With knowledge come responsibility. Janitors and physicians have completely different jobs.

 

[Trailblazer]

@Trailblazer
I have two questions for you.
How do you reject something that does not exist to begin with?
and
How do I choose not to believe god exists when I never all my life believed he exists to begin with?

How do you know God does not exist? If we could prove that God does not exist we would not be talking so much about God all the time. The fact that there is no objective proof of God does not mean God does not exist. A logical person would not expect to have objective proof of God. They would just accept that God is a Mystery which is beyond human comprehension.

If you never believed in God then you have already made your choice not to believe.

 

[Sir Doom]

Baha’u’llah fulfilled all the Bible prophecies for the Return of Christ, the Messiah of the OT. That could not be true if He was not a Messenger of God

That's not definitely true. Try again.

I am glad I am not the only one. I guess I share your sentiments but the problem is I have things I should be doing and I never get them done because I “live” on the forums. I wish I did not have three houses but I do. I also have 10 cats and a full time job and a three hour bike commute. Yet I find people fascinating, since psychology is my other hat. And now I find God fascinating so that is why I cannot extricate myself form forums.

Sounds like a lot of stress.

I see what you mean, but I still do not think God has what we think of as needs or wants, since God is fully self-sufficient.However, that does not preclude God wanting humans to have things God has to give them. God does not need for us to have anything, but God wants us to have them, for our own benefit.

Need is usually goal-oriented. Need this to get that sort of thing.

You are pretty sure of yourself aren’t you? In a sense you might be right, because God might have a “purpose” for you that you do not know yet, you being such a cool guy.

Or I do know and it's none of your business j/k I don't know.

I am not rejecting the notion of getting signs; that is just not the same as hearing a Voice and getting a full data base revealed to you.

The context in which I meant tailor is that God does not tailor to each individual how He is going to communicate to humans... A sign is a sign, a Voice is a voice. One is a text that says “I exist” and the other is a book that says what I exist and this is why I exist and this is what I want you to do.

How is that different from the context I used it in?

That is pretty much it, except that over time more than 1% of people get the message. As in the case of the message of Jesus, most everyone in the world knows about Jesus and His message, even though about one third of the world believe in Jesus.

But everyone does not get a sign so it is not 100%. In fact it is probably a lot less than 1%, and of course you do not get any useful information with that sign. Why would anyone want to know that God exists if they cannot know anything about God or what God wants them to do?.

No one has ever told me that got a sign and they didn't know what it meant. Signs, in my experience, have a 100% success rate. Everyone who gets a sign finds religion. It almost beggars belief.

The methods are not identical because the sign does not convey information. Baha’u’llah wrote upwards of 15,000 Tablets.

None of which I (and many others) will never read, thus they have less than 100% success rate. In fact, based on the current estimate there are only 7 million Baha'i. That's 1/10th of a percent. Even though everyone has the message ready to be received a vast majority of us will not ever even read it let alone understand it or adopt it. But everyone who gets a sign will. Won't they? Assuming the sign is from the God you speak of, naturally.

It is not that. It is that you might not need a sign. The jury is still out on that. God does not just go handing out signs to everyone, like a guy on a street corner handing out fliers. If you really need a sign and you ask for a sign there is a chance you will get one, but you’d have to be able to understand the sign. It is like Johnny wants dad to get him a new bike but he needs to be able to ride that bike. Dad is not going to get Johnny a ten speed until he is old enough to ride one.

I meant because I challenge his authority.

I meant it is unnecessary for every human on earth to each get a separate message, and as such it is unnecessary for God to send 7 billion messages, all containing the same information.

Your thinking is right though. It is not necessary for God to send any messages at all because God doesn't need anything for Himself. God only communicates with humanity for humanity’s sake, not for God’s sake. It is a free gift, since God is not obligated to give it.

“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 140

Again, you've missed my point. There is nothing more or less necessary about a messenger vs individual communication. Neither is necessary at all. Neither task is difficult or complex to omnipotent God thus the only real factor is success of the goal.

Stay tuned to this channel and I will demonstrate that. This is such a big subject, I don’t know where to even start. I could start by finding some passages in Gleanings and explaining what they mean, a weekend project for sure – Why do we need Messengers of God?

Not we. God. Why does God need messengers? That is the question.

“Unless you happen to be the (un)lucky atheist you know who got a sign.”

Okay I get it now. You are not so sure you want a sign from God. You might have a good point. With knowledge come responsibility. Janitors and physicians have completely different jobs.

No. I am not an atheist. I was talking about the atheist in your anecdote, remember?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

you never believed in God then you have already made your choice not to believe

How do you make a choice to not believe something g when there is nothing to chose from to which this action is even possible?

For example, that's like saying I chose not to believe I have two biological mothers. It doesn't make sense logically so I have no reason to believe since it's false to begin with.

How do you chose to not believe something that doesn't exist in order to form a belief or rejection about it?

How do you know God does not exist? If we could prove that God does not exist we would not be talking so much about God all the time.

We can prove god does not exist and the nature of god. I explained it so many times but no one addresses my statements. They just went to argue repetitive debates without moving on to a different topic relating to gods existence.

The fact that there is no objective proof of God does not mean God does not exist. A logical person would not expect to have objective proof of God. They would just accept that God is a Mystery which is beyond human comprehension.

My question is how do I chose not to believe something that does not exist to begin with?

I did not mention god in this question so his existence is irrelevant to it.

 

[ecco]

Investigating, finding nothing, and rejecting is not being blind. Investigating, finding nothing, and rejecting is being rational.

If you search for God in only religions and history, aren't you just studying people and beliefs? Can you see beyond the surface?

First you stated that my rejection of gods was because I looked only at religions. When I explained that I also used history, you said that wasn't good enough either.


Well, let's look at how you came to your beliefs.

At this point, I started a journey to Discovery.

OK

All the secrets of the universe stare us in the face just like flying birds. How many are Blind to what exists right in front of their noses? The evidence is there for all to see.

You don't say what evidence?

Logic dictates that If God exists, then God can be found.

Gods have been found by all cultures for tens of thousands of years. But you believe these are not really gods, only you have found the real, true god. Logic dictates you are completely wrong.

Logic dictates that if High Intelligence created this universe it would have to add up perfectly

Whose logic about which god? Your logic about your god? Why do you believe a god must have high intelligence? Is the state of mankind reflective of a highly intelligent creator?

Logic dictates one can learn about someone through their actions

Are you referring to the actions of your god? If so, then please give some examples.

Self serving preaching? I simply place truth in the world.

Why do you believe what you think, say or write is truth? All religious leaders say they are preaching the truth. You say they are all wrong. Has your god taken you aside and whispered truth into your ear?

What you or anyone decides to do with that truth is entirely up to them. On the other hand, I have pointed a direction by which one can Discover for themselves.

I'm sure that with a little effort I could find similar statements from Jesus, Jehova, Bahá’u’lláh, Muhammed, Jim Jones, Marshall Applewhite, et al.

 

[ecco]

Let's go back to the beginning ...

So, like most other religions Baha’i Law permits sexual relations only between a man and wife.

Why so uptight? Does Baha’i teach that life is just black and white? Does Baha’i not recognize there are many shades of gray between?

Does Baha’i not recognize homosexuals, bi-sexuals, transgenders?

You responded...

Why do you consider that uptight?

Here are some of your comments and quotes from your religious leaders:

Because premarital sex is not good for society

Because life is about more than physical pleasure.

'The Bahá’í Faith recognizes the value of the sex impulse, but condemns its illegitimate and improper expressions such as free love,

The Bahá’ís do not believe in the suppression of the sex impulse but in its regulation and control.'

According to the Bahá’í Teachings no sexual act can be considered lawful unless performed between lawfully married persons.

Outside of marital life there can be no lawful or healthy use of the sex impulse.

'Amongst the many other evils afflicting society in this spiritual low water mark in history is the question of immorality, and over-emphasis of sex…'

"Masturbation is clearly not a proper use of the sex instinct, as this is understood in the Faith.

'Such a chaste and holy life, with its implications of modesty, purity, temperance, decency, and clean-mindedness, involves no less than the exercise of moderation in all that pertains to dress, language, amusements, and all artistic and literary avocations. It demands daily vigilance in the control of one's carnal desires and corrupt inclinations.'

“Sex is primarily about reproduction. That's why it even exists in the first place. ​

So, just as, if not more so, uptight as the beliefs of many other other religions, especially from the more fundamentalist followers.

I do not expect you to understand this because you are an atheist.

One does not have to be an atheist to believe in evolution. If one understands evolution then one realizes that most of the things "frowned upon" by uptight theists are very natural.

.



One of the most telling comments from your post is:

The Bahá’ís do not believe in the suppression of the sex impulse but in its regulation and control.'​

That's really what this is all about: Regulation and control and providing a big platform for instilling guilt on followers. Guilt which can be assuaged by prayer, confessions, tithing and dependence on the god for forgiveness. Do you see the circle? It's something religions have done for millennia. It's a vital tactic for keeping followers in line.



RE: Masturbation, homosexuality, etc...

All are equal in the sight of God. The Baha Laws on sex are mostly geared towards what is best for society as a whole, although they are also beneficial for the individual.

"Beneficial for the individual"? Then please explain why suicide rates are far higher among homosexuals and transgenders than for straights.

 

[ecco]

Besides that, all we have to do is look at what results from teenagers having sex out of wedlock. It results in unwanted pregnancies and girls dropping out of high school, not to mention the babies that are born without parents who are capable of caring for them, or worse yet abortions.

Better sexual education and access to contraception lead to fewer unwanted pregnancies. Yet religions fight to suppress these because it encourages extra-marital sex. Per your comments:

The Bahá’í youth should ... be taught the lesson of self-control.
​

 

[ecco]

...

From your post #693...

ecco said: ↑
I sometimes have “issues” with God and how He created the world in which suffering is inherent...
But if I was an atheist, I would not have to blame God for it.

True. You would just have to accept the reality of the universe.​

Please do not put your words into a box showing that I made those comments.

 

[ecco]

Nobody can prove that God exists, except to themselves

The word "prove" is misused in your comment.

Anyone can convince themselves that their god exists and that all other gods are mere creations of man's imaginings.

​

 

[ecco]

...some atheists are avidly searching for God.

I haven't read any comments from any atheists on this or any forum that would substantiate that comment.
I don't personally know any atheists that are avidly searching for God.

 

[ecco]

...

 

[ecco]

I do not know a lot about Muhammad,...
some people believe that Muhammad wrote the Koran. However, Baha’is believe it was dictated by Muhammad, and others wrote it down.

just that they were not revealed by a Messenger of God (which Baha’is usually refer to as a Manifestation of God), so they are not the Word of God.

Baha’is believe that Muhammad got a direct revelation from God.

What a contradictory word salad...

• Muhammad got a direct revelation from God
• dictated by Muhammad, and others wrote it down
• not revealed by a Messenger of God
• so they are not the Word of God.

God says to Muhammad: A,B and C are true; D and E are false
Muhammad says to his scribes: A,B and C are true; D and E are false

How is Muhammad not a true Messenger?
How is the Koran not the word of god?

In any case, Muslims believe Muhammad did the actual writing. Baha'is cannot disprove this. Did God tell Bahá'u'lláh that Muhammad was lying when he said he did the actual writing?

 

[ecco]

Anyone can create a fable, write about it, gather a following and declare itself the Only True Religion, but logically speaking, that does not exclude the possibility that there is a True Religion.

Tens of thousands of gods/religions over tens of thousands of years. No True God/Religion.

In 1844 someone comes up with a new version and 174 years later you believe it is the "True Religion". Moreover, you believe that your viewpoint is logical.



There is a brief and informative history of Baha'i here...
BBC - Religions - Bahai: Origins of Bahá'í history

Its origins and progressions are no different than any other religion/sect.

Someone is upset with the way things are.
Someone "borrows" from other religions.
Someone starts preaching that His religion is the True religion.
Someone gets a following.
Someone's followers all believe Their religion is the True religion.​

 

[ChristineM]

How long has lightning been around? How long has the materials to create all your items been around? Does one sit back and wait for others to come up with all the answers or does one Discover on their own?

So many just sit back deciding what beliefs to value, So many enjoy the inventions of others without understanding them or even attempting to discover on their own. Is a person supposed to just wait around for things to come to them through others?

Yes, there is an awful lot to learn. AS I see it, God has placed all the knowledge all around us. Perhaps the question is: Who will venture into undiscovered country to acquire knowledge or who will sit back waiting for everything to come to them, complaining not to know?

I have seen many many people box themselves within beliefs giving them an excuse to do nothing. All I can say is every choice brings lessons.

And as i see t magic is woo.

Interesting that you utilize the power of quantum mechanics, particle physics, micro and nano technology, software engineering, microwave research and much much more, without understanding any of them.

 

[Bird123]

I am not searching for God; I already know God exists. Now, I am searching to know more about God and get closer to God in my heart.

I do not think that religious beliefs prevent Discovery, not unless they are so rigid that they restrict free thinking, such as certain doctrines that tell us what we are supposed to believe.

I believe we are all God’s servants and that is the highest station to which we can attain. One thing an Omnipotent God cannot be is a servant which is why God wants us to occupy that station.

The “Messengers of God” heard the Voice of God through the Holy Spirit and they revealed what they heard to humanity in scriptures, a form we can understand. If we avail ourselves of that revelation and share it with others then we can be messengers as well as servants of God.

I believe that God is unreachable. The only way we can know anything about God is through what the Messengers of God reveal, which is not very much, but all we need to know and are able to understand. I do not believe we can have any direct intercourse with God because God is ineffable, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. Only the Messengers can understand God, because they have a divine nature as well as a human nature, but how they understand God is beyond what we are able to comprehend.

I agree with that wholeheartedly. We are spiritual beings, not physical bodies. If we are in tune with our spiritual nature then our thoughts will be on the spiritual world and not this physical one. We have to live in this world but we do not have to be “of this world.”

I do not know what you mean by that. What do you think it is “all about?” What do you think is beyond the surface? How do you know I am not aware of that?

I believe that God needs a middleman (or what I call a Mediator) to receive and transmit information that God wants humans to have. I do not believe we can get information directly from God.

I am not open to the possibility that God does not exist; I know God exists. I know because of the Revelation of Baha’u’llah. That constitutes proof for me.

Not all people are interested in searching for God. God leaves that up to the individual. However, if they do not search, they will not find.

Science will never “discover God.” God is ineffable, immensely exalted beyond all that can ever be perceived. The acme of human understanding is our confession of helplessness to ever be able to understand the mystery of the Living God.

“Wert thou to ponder in thine heart, from now until the end that hath no end, and with all the concentrated intelligence and understanding which the greatest minds have attained in the past or will attain in the future, this divinely ordained and subtle Reality, this sign of the revelation of the All-Abiding, All-Glorious God, thou wilt fail to comprehend its mystery or to appraise its virtue. Having recognized thy powerlessness to attain to an adequate understanding of that Reality which abideth within thee, thou wilt readily admit the futility of such efforts as may be attempted by thee, or by any of the created things, to fathom the mystery of the Living God, the Day Star of unfading glory, the Ancient of everlasting days. This confession of helplessness which mature contemplation must eventually impel every mind to make is in itself the acme of human understanding, and marketh the culmination of man’s development.”Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 165-166

All we are able to know about God are some Attributes of God that are revealed by Messengers and reflected in Creation. We can also know God’s will for man in every age because it is revealed by the Messengers of God, but we can never know the intrinsic nature of God. Not even the Messengers know that. God sits on the All-Highest Throne, the Habitation of everlasting might and glory. We cannot know any more about God than Messengers reveal. The “sacred Lote-Tree” refers to the Sadratu’l-Muntahá, the “Tree beyond which there is no passing” symbolically referring to Baha’u’llah.

You think like mankind. Widen your view. In reality, God has no servants. God has no messengers. God is not Unreachable.

You are right. Beliefs do not prevent discovery. For this to be possibly one can not value beliefs over discovery. Beliefs merely point a direction by which one can search for the truth.

Religions teach people to value beliefs above all else. That is because beliefs are all they have. They will not correct errors nor venture into undiscovered country to Discover what they do not know. This is why science will discover God before religion will. You might not see this but science is walking toward God.

I find it funny how religions get people to belief their words are God's words or that some messenger's words are God's words. When do people Question?? To Question is the start on the journey to Discovery.

I have heard the Voice of God. I have not found any religion that really Understands God. On the other hand, each carries parts of the picture.

Your quote:Not all people are interested in searching for God. God leaves that up to the individual. However, if they do not search, they will not find. My Answer: True, indeed. This leaves the question. If they do not want to find God, why do they follow religion? Of course, there are a million variables and a million different answers to that. How about you? Are you so convinced God is unreachable you do not try? Do you want to find God? What hold does religion have on you?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You think like mankind.

And you don’t?

 

[Bird123]

First you stated that my rejection of gods was because I looked only at religions. When I explained that I also used history, you said that wasn't good enough either.


Well, let's look at how you came to your beliefs.



OK



You don't say what evidence?



Gods have been found by all cultures for tens of thousands of years. But you believe these are not really gods, only you have found the real, true god. Logic dictates you are completely wrong.




Whose logic about which god? Your logic about your god? Why do you believe a god must have high intelligence? Is the state of mankind reflective of a highly intelligent creator?


Are you referring to the actions of your god? If so, then please give some examples.




Why do you believe what you think, say or write is truth? All religious leaders say they are preaching the truth. You say they are all wrong. Has your god taken you aside and whispered truth into your ear?




I'm sure that with a little effort I could find similar statements from Jesus, Jehova, Bahá’u’lláh, Muhammed, Jim Jones, Marshall Applewhite, et al.

your quote:Gods have been found by all cultures for tens of thousands of years. But you believe these are not really gods, only you have found the real, true god. Logic dictates you are completely wrong. My answer:The gods from people of the past do not add up. Truth always adds up. Your logic is flawed. Simply because people of the past were wrong does not mean truth can not be discovered. On the other hand, statistically the odds would say you are right.

Are we living entirely on statistics? Even with statistics, it will not be 100% against. Are you living on Beliefs, just like people of religion? If you were after the Real Truth, just as I was in the past, you would start a journey to Discover the real truth rather than wallow in beliefs, thinking you are sure of the truth, but , in reality, never knowing.

your quote: Why do you believe a god must have high intelligence? Is the state of mankind reflective of a highly intelligent creator? My Answer: Yes, indeed. I see Genius behind it all.

There is learning in the journey. I am reluctant to tell all. It is all up to you. What you believe does not matter. What you Discover is everything.

your quote;Has your god taken you aside and whispered truth into your ear? My answer:You have so much to learn and discover before you are ready. You would just be confused by the experience. There exists Intelligence far beyond mankind. We are but mere ants.

Look around you. See God's action. God does not whisper truth in your ear. You must go out and Discover it!! God will not influence your choices. You must know first before you are ready.

How smart are you? Having heard of Great Intelligence behind everything provides you with a great opportunity to Discover. Are you up for the task? Look around you. How is there High Intelligence is what is around you? How does it add up or does it add up? If you look for God's actions, aren't they staring you in the face when you see this world?

 

[Bird123]

And as i see t magic is woo.

Interesting that you utilize the power of quantum mechanics, particle physics, micro and nano technology, software engineering, microwave research and much much more, without understanding any of them.

Perhaps, I see more than you realize. What does Evolution, Fractals and Quantum Entanglement tell you about God? If you tell me nothing, then there is something you might not see. Perhaps, it's something to work on.

 

[Bird123]

And you don’t?

Knowledge always changes the view. How many people will tell you this world and all it's people are a Masterpiece? I will.