Questions for Atheists and Agnostics

[ecco]

Why do you consider that uptight? I mean why do people have to have sex out of wedlock?

The real question is, why not have sex out of wedlock?

Humans become capable of reproducing around age 13. That also means that sexual activity is pleasurable from at least that age.

Why should ones marital status allow or deny them those pleasures?

Is masturbation frowned upon by your religion? Why? Ditto for all other forms of sexual activity - why?

I never had sex before I was a Baha’i because I always believed that it was sacred, reserved for marriage, and I was not raised in a religious home.

You do realize that the word "sacred" only has religious connotations.

What is sacred about sex? Is kissing sacred? Is dancing sacred? Is SCUBA diving sacred? Is hiking or skiing or going to a movie or fine dining sacred. All these things are pleasurable. What makes pleasurable sex sacred?

“The Bahá’í teachings on sexual morality centre on marriage and the family as the bedrock of the whole structure of human society and are designed to protect and strengthen that divine institution. Bahá’í law thus restricts permissible sexual intercourse to that between a man and the woman to whom he is married.”

Sex is an important part of marriage. It's far better to find out is two people are sexually compatible before marriage.

Homosexuality is prohibited by Baha’i Law. However, there are Baha’is who are homosexual and the Baha’i Faith administration does not ostracize, berate, or belittle homosexuals. If a member was openly declaring that they are a homosexual and a Baha’i, as in a gay bar, they might lose their voting rights, but they would never be ostracized from the Baha’i community.

Why? Some people are born heterosexual, some are born homosexual and there are countless shades between. All are natural. They are only frowned upon because of religious edicts.

An unmarried couple living together would not be ostracized either

Hypocrisy.

The caveat is that they are only “absolute truths” for the ages in which they are revealed (called a religious dispensation). Truth is never absolute because more truth is always revealed by the next Messenger of God. Religious truth is never ending... It evolves over time just as scientific truth evolves over time.

No. Truths are truths. The knowledge of science changes over time. Religious/societal morals change over time.

 

[ecco]

Why would you try to become an atheist?

I sometimes have “issues” with God and how He created the world in which suffering is inherent...
But if I was an atheist, I would not have to blame God for it.

True. You would just have to accept the reality of the universe.

 

[ecco]

I do not know a lot about Muhammad, but I am aware from an internet search that some people believe that Muhammad wrote the Koran. However, Baha’is believe it was dictated by Muhammad, and others wrote it down.

Of course that's their belief. If they were to accept that Muhammad actually got the words from God it would invalidate Baha'i belief.

I meant that from a Baha’i perspective they do not qualify as a revelation from God, ...

That's the same thing any religion says about the writings of any other religion. See your comments above regarding the Koran.

Anyone can say anything about anything, but opinions and beliefs do not create reality.

Anyone can create a fable, write about it, gather a following and declare itself the Only True Religion. But writings and beliefs do not create reality.

 

[ecco]

A man declares ‘There is an unplugged lamp in a room which gives gives off a bright light’ . The wise man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, he sees the unplugged lamp gives off no light.

Another man declares ‘There is an unplugged lamp in a room which gives gives off a bright light’ . The wise man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, he sees the unplugged lamp gives off no light, he begins to suspect the truth!

Another man declares ‘There is an unplugged lamp in a room which gives gives off a bright light’ . The wise man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, he sees the unplugged lamp gives off no light, he knows the truth!

Another man declares ‘There is an unplugged lamp in a room which gives gives off a bright light’ .
The wise man is not so foolish as to look again.

I gather from what you said previously that you think there is no light coming from any lamps.

Did you intentionally miss the word "unplugged" in the analogy I gave? I stated that the wise man came to realize that unplugged lamps do not give off light. So when told to look at yet another unplugged lamp, he realizes it's just the same old ruse.

Some people believe the man who declares ‘There is an unplugged lamp in a room which gives gives off a bright light’. They go into the room and convince themselves that the unplugged lamp is really giving off light. Then they declare "I have seen the light!" and try to convince other people that the lamp they are referring to really does give off light.

 

[ecco]

The evidence that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be is ...

the Bible prophecies that He fulfilled

If the Bible is not the true word of the true god of what matter is the fulfillment of its prophecies?

Contrariwise, if Biblical prophecies did come to pass, then the Bible must be the true word of the true god.

the predictions He made that have come to pass;

Such as?

 

[ecco]

Investigating, finding nothing, and rejecting is not being blind. Investigating, finding nothing, and rejecting is being rational.

Discovery is not a matter of rejecting nor accepting.

Discovery is a matter of rejecting or accepting evidence. If evidence is accepted or rejected it leads to the discovery of more evidence.

Investigating?? Where? How? Is religion your only source of knowledge about God?

Religions (plural) and history.

Do you see the world as a mess then assume there can be no God?

Contrary to popular opinion, atheists are not atheists because they "see the world as a mess". Atheists are atheists because they realize that gods are the creations of man's imaginings.

Occasionally, theists "see the world as a mess" and temporarily come to the conclusion that "There ain't no GOD". This usually doesn't last very long and they are soon back to their beliefs (or belief in a different god).

Logic dictates that any Being capable of creating all this has to be very very smart.

I wouldn't attribute to universe to being the creation of a "very very smart" entity.

Can you find no evidence of intelligence anywhere?

Sure, by the measurable standards of the human race, I'm intelligent. You probably are too. You can type and use the internet. However, you could just be an AI.

With the Great Intelligence that created this world came Great Thinking. Can you widen your view enough to Discover what it's all about?

What makes you think I haven't looked with a wide view? You are making assumptions based on your ignorance of me.

As I see it, in this time-based causal universe, God's actions can be seen. When one studies and understands some of these actions, it opens door to new things to study. In time, one comes to Understand God and what God is actually doing with this world.

As I see it. this will lead to God. Logic dictates. If God exists then God can be found. Perhaps, this is a good starting point for your investigation. On the other hand, I find few who actually want to find God.

The first thing God pointed out to me is that mankind carries such a narrow view. I cry that. I am always working on mine. For this hungry student, the knowledge one can acquire is almost limitless.

Self serving preaching.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm glad.

Huh?

 

[Bird123]

I am not talking about beliefs either. I am talking about facts. I do not think the universe is proof of God because there is no proof God created it... It is evidence of God, but only if one believes in God.

Assuming that God exists without proof is a bias.

With all due respect, I believe the only truth from God comes through revelation to Messengers, which then become religions. The older religions have been corrupted by humans through the course of time, so they no longer represent what was originally revealed. That is one reason why God sends a “new” Messenger in every new age, to renew the eternal religion of God.

That depends upon what you mean by God and what you mean by found.
Can God be located by a GPS tracking device?

We see God reflected in all of creation, if we believe in God, but we can never see God.
Logic dictates that if an ineffable transcendent God exists, that God is out of the reach of any human being.

That is true, if we accept the premise that God created the universe.

If you mean that God is beyond any beliefs of people and religion I can agree with that. God is infinite and people and religion are finite.

Logic only dictates that if one accepts the premise that God exists and is in control of everything. One could also use logic to argue for the nonexistence of God and humans being the highest entities who are in control of everything.

I can agree with that. As Baha’u’llah said in His Hidden Words, “let deeds not words be your adorning.”

I can agree with that. As Abdu’l-Baha said, we progress “little by little, day by day.”
Are you starting to get the picture? It's not beliefs. It's Math.

Me too... There is always more that we can learn, till the end of this life and thereafter.

They are not mutually exclusive if we “live” our beliefs.

God does not need our belief, but God wants us to believe in Him and His Messenger for our own benefit, and for the benefit of the whole world. What is wrong with this world is summed up here...

“The vitality of men’s belief in God is dying out in every land; nothing short of His wholesome medicine can ever restore it. The corrosion of ungodliness is eating into the vitals of human society; what else but the Elixir of His potent Revelation can cleanse and revive it? Is it within human power, O Hakím, to effect in the constituent elements of any of the minute and indivisible particles of matter so complete a transformation as to transmute it into purest gold? Perplexing and difficult as this may appear, the still greater task of converting satanic strength into heavenly power is one that We have been empowered to accomplish. The Force capable of such a transformation transcendeth the potency of the Elixir itself. The Word of God, alone, can claim the distinction of being endowed with the capacity required for so great and far-reaching a change.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 200

You do not understand. You do not accept that God exists or not. You are searching for Truth. You must be open for all possibilities.

In searching for anything not just God, one must define parameters of what they are searching for.

The Ebb and Flow of true knowledge when incorporated helps define the parameters of what one searches. Example: If one is to make a car, all cars must have an engine, a method of stopping, a place to sit, and let's not forget steering. Do you understand?

Incorporate Ebb and Flow with what is around you. Bunch until you discover something.

One can come up with any belief to prevent a journey to Discovery. There is learning in the process. I have given way too many short cuts as it is. Remember, I had no one to point me to a starting point.

God's messengers?? In a way, everyone is God's messengers. No one lives without doing something for God whether they realize it or not. Just being you is enough.

The idea that God is unreachable has been taught by religion since the beginning. They want you to believe you must go through them or what they say.

We are spiritual beings trapped in a physical body. God is Spiritual as well. Never think anything is unreachable. It's not true. In fact, everyone already knows God.

your quote;“The vitality of men’s belief in God is dying out in every land; nothing short of His wholesome medicine can ever restore it. The corrosion of ungodliness is eating into the vitals of human society; what else but the Elixir of His potent Revelation can cleanse and revive it? Is it within human power, O Hakím, to effect in the constituent elements of any of the minute and indivisible particles of matter so complete a transformation as to transmute it into purest gold? Perplexing and difficult as this may appear, the still greater task of converting satanic strength into heavenly power is one that We have been empowered to accomplish. The Force capable of such a transformation transcendeth the potency of the Elixir itself. The Word of God, alone, can claim the distinction of being endowed with the capacity required for so great and far-reaching a change.” My answer: This is NOT what it's all about!!! You just must get beyond the surface. More is going on than you could ever keep up with. The Dynamics are amazing.

It has never ever been about believing. Why do people think God needs a middle man?

On the journey to discovery, one must be open for all possibilities, including God does not exist. On the other hand one can not refuse to search for God because they do not want God to exist. You see. It works both ways.

AS I see it, it is just a matter of time that science will Discover God. They walk toward God and do not realize it. Sure, it will take a long time, but it will happen long before religion discovers God. Maybe you too.

 

[Bird123]

Straw man. Flight by mankind is down to advances in mechanics and understanding of aerodynamics. Until those skills were honed flight my man was just a dream because evolution took a different path.

You are welcome to belief, but tell me, why did not bronze age man use the internet to spread their religion globally if the evidence of quantum mechanics, particle physics and software engineering have there for all to see from the beginning?

Simple. They were Blind.

 

[Bird123]

Discovery is a matter of rejecting or accepting evidence. If evidence is accepted or rejected it leads to the discovery of more evidence.


Religions (plural) and history.


Contrary to popular opinion, atheists are not atheists because they "see the world as a mess". Atheists are atheists because they realize that gods are the creations of man's imaginings.

Occasionally, theists "see the world as a mess" and temporarily come to the conclusion that "There ain't no GOD". This usually doesn't last very long and they are soon back to their beliefs (or belief in a different god).


I wouldn't attribute to universe to being the creation of a "very very smart" entity.



Sure, by the measurable standards of the human race, I'm intelligent. You probably are too. You can type and use the internet. However, you could just be an AI.



What makes you think I haven't looked with a wide view? You are making assumptions based on your ignorance of me.



Self serving preaching.

If you search for God in only religions and history, aren't you just studying people and beliefs? Can you see beyond the surface?

Perhaps, I base my view of your narrow view on your replies.

Self serving preaching? I simply place truth in the world. What you or anyone decides to do with that truth is entirely up to them. Your journey has never been up to me. I am not a religion. I am not looking for anyone to believe. On the other hand, I have pointed a direction by which one can Discover for themselves.

 

[Trailblazer]

I guess so, and maybe even more ways than two.

Well, good. Now you know that God can communicate with you directly and there is no need for a middle man. I hope that helps you.

The middleman is needed to write stuff down and found a religion that is available for everyone. I am not going to get the communication he gets because I am not capable of receiving and understanding it.

You’d have to be more specific in what you want to know.

I asked you to demonstrate that Messengers of God had been qualified, as that is the statement you made. I still want that.

Their qualifications is too big of an area to cover. That is like asking me to show you all the United States in one day.

Anybody can talk to God in prayer so that is what I was referring to. We can pick our cell phone and call upon God. God might answer a prayer or not, but God won’t speak to us directly.

Please describe an answer you have received.

Nobody can “prove” that they got an answer from God as the result of a prayer. Once, a few weeks ago, I was at my wits end and I was riding my bike to work and I cried out to God to give me a sign and let me know if He wants me to continue posting so much on forums, especially to certain atheists and Christians. As I recall, shortly thereafter it all became clear what I was supposed to do. I was able to be less compulsive about answering every post and I was able to cut back on starting new threads. By that time I was in total desperation because I was on overload and I did not know what I was doing or exactly why. It is clearer now but I will probably have to put in another prayer request soon.

Also, after that prayer I started to get less posts, which was quite unusual. I still have days like last Saturday when I spent a whole day posting back and forth to this one atheist on another forum, but that is not the norm. It is almost as if God is telling me to slow down and take a break. I even ate lunch on a weekend on three separate occasions, and I have not done that in five years. I normally will not take a break if I have posts to write, except for coffee.

That does not mean God needs you to exist, but rather God wants you to exist. There is a big difference between need and want.

Not for omnipotence there isn't.

What do you mean by that?

No, God does not need anything from anyone. God is sully self-sufficient. You exist, and that means that God allows you to exist.

I'd like to see God try and stop me from existing.

I don’t think you would like it if He really did.

I know more about how God speaks to Messengers because Baha’u’llah described how God spoke. By contrast, I only know a couple of people who got signs and I am pretty sure that people who get a sign get different signs which are tailored to what they need and can understand. Does that make sense?

Yes, it makes sense. I said it to you like four posts ago and your are still in the process of rejecting the notion. Where is my "I win" emoji?

I am not rejecting the notion of getting signs; that is just not the same as hearing a Voice and getting a full data base revealed to you.

That is pretty much it, except that over time more than 1% of people get the message. As in the case of the message of Jesus, most everyone in the world knows about Jesus and His message, even though about one third of the world believe in Jesus.

That is true. It changes their life forever.

You obviously missed my point.

What was it?

For one thing, God wants people to choose to believe or not, and by using Messengers that gives them a choice. If God gave everyone a sign, everyone would believe because they would be sure God exists, but God does not want it to be that easy. God only wants people to believe in Him if they care enough to look for Him and find Him.

Except those who get signs. So I'm confused. Those who get signs are better than the rest of us (because they warrant special attention) or are worse than the rest of us (because they aren't worth wasting free will on)?

Those who get signs are not better or worse. They are in a special category. They get signs because (a) God knows they need signs and (b) they are worthy of getting signs. It is probably because God knows that they will not believe any other way and God wants them to believe. There are many people who would not believe any other way but if they are unworthy, God won’t give them a sigh. It is all about sincerity and attitude towards God. People who make demands upon God are probably not going to get anything because God does not like people questioning Hid Authority.

The other obvious reason God uses Messengers is because they can receive a lot of information and write it down so everyone in the world has access to it.

There is no such thing as 'a lot' to omnipotent God. It takes just as much effort to send one message as it does to send 7 billion messages. That is to say no effort at all.

I did not say it would be difficult for God to do, but it would be downright silly, because it is unnecessary to send 7 billion messages all containing the same information.

Signs are only successful to convey that God exists but there is no point knowing God exists unless you know something about God and what God wants you to do.

Unless you happen to be the (un)lucky atheist you know who got a sign.

What is unlucky about it?

 

[Trailblazer]

The real question is, why not have sex out of wedlock?

Because premarital sex is not good for society, and society as a whole is more important than individuals who want to enjoy themselves.

Humans become capable of reproducing around age 13. That also means that sexual activity is pleasurable from at least that age.
Why should ones marital status allow or deny them those pleasures?

Because life is about more than physical pleasure.

Besides that, all we have to do is look at what results from teenagers having sex out of wedlock. It results in unwanted pregnancies and girls dropping out of high school, not to mention the babies that are born without parents who are capable of caring for them, or worse yet abortions; and yes I believe that abortion is taking a life because life begins at the moment of conception.

Is masturbation frowned upon by your religion? Why? Ditto for all other forms of sexual activity - why?

Forms of sexual activity other than sexual intercourse are not mentioned in the Book of Laws.Regarding masturbation and sexual behavior in general, the following is from a letter of the Universal House of Justice (the highest governing body of the Baha’i Faith) to an individual believer:

"We have found in the Holy Writings no explicit references to masturbation, but there are a number of principles and teachings which can guide a Bahá’í to the correct attitude towards it. In a letter to an individual believer, written by the Guardian's secretary on his behalf, it is pointed out that:

'The Bahá’í Faith recognizes the value of the sex impulse, but condemns its illegitimate and improper expressions such as free love, companionate marriage and others, all of which it considers positively harmful to man and to the society in which he lives. The proper use of the sex instinct is the natural right of every individual, and it is precisely for this very purpose that the institution of marriage has been established. The Bahá’ís do not believe in the suppression of the sex impulse but in its regulation and control.'

"In response to another letter enquiring if there were any legitimate way in which a person could express the sex instinct if, for some reason, he were unable to marry or if outer circumstances such as economic factors were to cause him to delay marriage, the Guardian's secretary wrote on his behalf:

'Concerning your question whether there are any legitimate forms of expression of the sex instinct outside of marriage: According to the Bahá’í Teachings no sexual act can be considered lawful unless performed between lawfully married persons. Outside of marital life there can be no lawful or healthy use of the sex impulse. The Bahá’í youth should, on the one hand, be taught the lesson of self-control which, when exercised, undoubtedly has a salutary effect on the development of character and of personality in general, and on the other should be advised, nay even encouraged, to contract marriage while still young and in full possession of their physical vigour. Economic factors, no doubt, are often a serious hindrance to early marriage but in most cases are only an excuse, and as such should not be over stressed.'

"In another letter on the Guardian's behalf, also to an individual believer, the secretary writes:

'Amongst the many other evils afflicting society in this spiritual low water mark in history is the question of immorality, and over-emphasis of sex…'

"This indicates how the whole matter of sex and the problems related to it have assumed far too great an importance in the thinking of present-day society.

"Masturbation is clearly not a proper use of the sex instinct, as this is understood in the Faith. Moreover it involves, as you have pointed out, mental fantasies, while Bahá’u’lláh, in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, has exhorted us not to indulge our passions and in one of His well-known Tablets ‘Abdu'l-Bahá encourages us to keep our 'secret thoughts pure'. Of course many wayward thoughts come involuntarily to the mind and these are merely a result of weakness and are not blameworthy unless they become fixed or even worse, are expressed in improper acts. In 'The Advent of Divine Justice', when describing the moral standards that Bahá’ís must uphold both individually and in their community life, the Guardian wrote:

'Such a chaste and holy life, with its implications of modesty, purity, temperance, decency, and clean-mindedness, involves no less than the exercise of moderation in all that pertains to dress, language, amusements, and all artistic and literary avocations. It demands daily vigilance in the control of one's carnal desires and corrupt inclinations.'

"Your problem, therefore, is one against which you should continue to struggle, with determination and with the aid of prayer. You should remember, however, that it is only one of the many temptations and faults that a human being must strive to overcome during his lifetime, and you should not increase the difficulty you have by over-emphasising its importance. We suggest you try to see it within the whole spectrum of the qualities that a Bahá’í must develop in his character. Be vigilant against temptation, but do not allow it to claim too great a share of your attention. You should concentrate, rather, on the virtues that you should develop, the services you should strive to render, and, above all, on God and His attributes, and devote your energies to living a full Bahá’í life in all its many aspects."

(From a letter of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, a copy of which was sent to the compiler with a letter dated March 8, 1981)
Lights of Guidance/Chastity and Sex Education - Bahaiworks, a library of works about the Bahá’í Faith

You do realize that the word "sacred" only has religious connotations.

What is sacred about sex? Is kissing sacred? Is dancing sacred? Is SCUBA diving sacred? Is hiking or skiing or going to a movie or fine dining sacred. All these things are pleasurable. What makes pleasurable sex sacred?

Sorry, I jumped too quick to use that word. Sex is not in any way sacred. Years ago, I saved a post written by a Baha’i and he gave me permission to re-post it. He says it better than I can. Please keep in mind that this was just his personal opinion, based upon how he interprets the Baha’i Writings, but I fully agree with him. Mind you, there are Baha’is who disagree and consider sex spiritual, but they do not have a leg to stand on because that is not supported anywhere in the Baha’i Writings, thus it is just their personal opinion. Below is part of what he posted:

“Sex is primarily about reproduction. That's why it even exists in the first place. It's a biological mechanism that increases diversity in the gene pool, for one thing. Its role in relationships in some species is a secondary role, not the primary one, which evolved much later. Sex is not something only cute furry creatures do for bonding. Reptiles and amphibians and insects and even plants have sex lives. It evolved as a means of reproduction, and only later acquired secondary roles. Those who want to divorce it completely from its primary role (and they do exist; I've been in discussions where people have argued quite strenuously that sex isn't about reproduction at all!) are in a very real sense attempting to force it to conform to their own selfish desires . . . and that, ultimately, is what is against our spiritual nature.

Our spiritual nature cannot be developed except by "dying to self" and "living in God." God has given us a dual nature: one material and one spiritual. Sex is part of the material nature, however much it may be able to play a role in a truly loving relationship. It is not what we are, even though people insist that it is. God is calling us to struggle against our lower nature and to become who we truly are: not material beings, not sexual beings, but spiritual beings who are in control of the physical side of our nature and who can thus find true happiness living in conformity with His will. Although not scriptural, there is a possible explanation of why He has made it so hard that I ran across long ago in a Baha'i children's book: Because if it were too easy, it wouldn't be worth anything. Or put another way, because only by being challenged can we really prove our love for God.”

I do not expect you to understand this because you are an atheist. I got a lot of guff from my atheist friends regarding this, but we finally just decided to agree to disagree.

Sex is an important part of marriage. It's far better to find out is two people are sexually compatible before marriage.

Any two people can make sex work if they love one another. My husband and I were 42 and 32 respectively when we got married after having only known each other for three weeks. That was over 33 years ago. We are both Baha’is and neither one of us had ever had sex before marriage. The honeymoon was nothing to write home to mom about, and after that we kept a couple of sex therapists in business for about a year, but we made it work; I can safely say we really made it work. I won’t say any more than that.

What good do you think it does to “try out the model” before purchasing it? Human beings are not automobiles. Studies show that couples who wait have happier and longer lasting marriages. Having multiple partners only leads one to make unnecessary comparisons.

Finally, marriage is about a lot more than sex. We all get older so if that was all a marriage was based upon, there would be nothing to bind a couple together in old age. You would not have caught me saying this about 20 years ago, during the time I was into ignoring God and the Baha’i Faith but we all get older and hopefully wiser.

Why? Some people are born heterosexual, some are born homosexual and there are countless shades between. All are natural. They are only frowned upon because of religious edicts.

The only answer I can give you is that the “practice” of homosexuality it is against Baha’i Law. It is possible that could be changed in the future, with the coming of the next Messenger of God, but given homosexuality has always been against religions laws, I doubt it. Mind you, there are more than a few Baha’is who do not like this law, not because it affects them, but because they consider it discriminatory.

I just accept it as the Law, but I would never discriminate against a homosexual. In fact, I rented one of our houses to a homosexual man who also had a history of sex offenses against children. I cannot think of any landlords who would rent to a sex offender, but I checked out his offenses and got to know him and came to conclude he was a good person. Sexual orientation does not define anyone, nor does one’s past history. People can learn from their mistakes, change and move on.

All are equal in the sight of God. The Baha Laws on sex are mostly geared towards what is best for society as a whole, although they are also beneficial for the individual.

An unmarried couple living together would not be ostracized either.

Hypocrisy.

Why?

No. Truths are truths. The knowledge of science changes over time. Religious/societal morals change over time.

Indeed, spiritual truth is eternal. It does not alter or change over time. It is renewed in the cycle of every Prophet.

 

[Trailblazer]

I sometimes have “issues” with God and how He created the world in which suffering is inherent...
But if I was an atheist, I would not have to blame God for it.

True. You would just have to accept the reality of the universe.

Nobody can prove that God exists, except to themselves, so nobody can know the reality of the universe.

I take it you are happy being an atheist and you are not searching for God.

That’s perfectly fine... I get kind of tired of people telling me all atheists want to believe in God. That has not been my experience from posting to atheists for the last five years on a continuous basis. Many atheists are happy being atheists, some atheists would believe in God if they had “what they consider” sufficient evidence, and some atheists are avidly searching for God. Atheists are a heterogeneous group.

I started this thread because an atheist I have been posting to for over three years almost daily insists that if god existed god would want 100% of people in the world to believe in him, but I keep telling him that is just not so. God does not need anything because God is fully self-sufficient, so God does not need anyone’s belief. The only reason God wants humans to believe in Him is for their own benefit.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course that's their belief. If they were to accept that Muhammad actually got the words from God it would invalidate Baha'i belief.

Why do you think it would invalidate Baha’i belief? Baha’is believe that Muhammad got a direct revelation from God. Even though we do not believe that He wrote it down Himself, the Qur’an is the most authentic religious scripture there is, next to the Writings of Baha’u’llah. However, we consider the Qur’an almost as authentic as the Writings of Baha’u’llah.

From Letters Written on Behalf of the Guardian:

The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh.
(28 July 1936 to a National Spiritual Assembly)

We cannot be sure of the authenticity of any of the phrases in the Old or the New Testament. What we can be sure of is when such references or words are cited or quoted in either the Quran or the Bahá'í writings.
(4 July 1947 to an individual believer)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

I meant that from a Baha’i perspective they do not qualify as a revelation from God, ...

That's the same thing any religion says about the writings of any other religion. See your comments above regarding the Koran.

True, but of you are one of those “logical atheists” you would know that a religious claim is either true or false. It does not matter what people believe; it only matters what is. God determines reality. We just discover it or fail to do so.

Something to ponder.

Anyone can say anything about anything, but opinions and beliefs do not create reality.
Anyone can create a fable, write about it, gather a following and declare itself the Only True Religion. But writings and beliefs do not create reality.

Sheesh... that is essentially what I just wrote, before I read what you wrote. Is there an echo in here? I know there is an ecco.

Anyone can create a fable, write about it, gather a following and declare itself the Only True Religion, but logically speaking, that does not exclude the possibility that there is a True Religion.

 

[Trailblazer]

I gather from what you said previously that you think there is no light coming from any lamps.

Did you intentionally miss the word "unplugged" in the analogy I gave? I stated that the wise man came to realize that unplugged lamps do not give off light. So when told to look at yet another unplugged lamp, he realizes it's just the same old ruse.

I understood the analogy... Obviously, an unplugged lamp cannot give off any light. I was just confirming what you meant.

Unplugged lamps do not give off light, but plugged lamps might give off light or not, depending upon the lamp. The wise man goes to look at the lamp. If it is not plugged in, he plugs it in. Then he looks at the lamp to see if it gives off light. It might give off light or not, depending upon the lamp.

The wise man does not assume that the lamp is just like every other lamp he has ever seen before. That is the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization.

Hasty generalization is an informal fallacy of faulty generalization by reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence—essentially making a hasty conclusion without considering all of the variables.
Faulty generalization - Wikipedia

Hasty generalization usually shows this pattern:

1. messenger a was a false messenger
2. messenger b was a false messenger
3. messenger c was a false messenger
4. messenger d was a false messenger
5. Therefore, messenger e was a false messenger

Some people believe the man who declares ‘There is an unplugged lamp in a room which gives gives off a bright light’. They go into the room and convince themselves that the unplugged lamp is really giving off light. Then they declare "I have seen the light!" and try to convince other people that the lamp they are referring to really does give off light.

Let’s start over....

Nobody knows anything about the lamp before they go into the room... They just know there is lamp in the room. If they go in the room and the lamp is unplugged, they plug it in to see if it gives off light.

Man #1 reports that there is a lamp in the next room that gives no light... Man #2 is satisfied with the report, believing it is true just because man #1 said so, so he does not go to check in the next room.

The wise man, man #3, is not satisfied with the report of man #1, so he goes into the room to check out the lamp for himself. He might find a lamp that gives off no light or he might find a lamp that has light shining brilliantly from it, and then he knows the truth! If he finds the truth, man #3 does not go and try to convince others of the truth, because a wise man knows that everyone has to check out the lamp and determine the truth from himself.

By the way, in Baha’i parlance, that is called Individual Investigation of Truth:

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men.” Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8

“What does it mean to investigate reality? It means that man must forget all hearsay and examine truth himself, for he does not know whether statements he hears are in accordance with reality or not. Wherever he finds truth or reality, he must hold to it, forsaking, discarding all else; for outside of reality there is naught but superstition and imagination.” – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 62.

“The principles of the Teachings of Bahá’u’lláh should be carefully studied, one by one, until they are realized and understood by mind and heart—so will you become strong followers of the light, truly spiritual, heavenly soldiers of God, acquiring and spreading the true civilization in Persia, in Europe, and in the whole world.” Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks, p. 22

 

[Trailblazer]

The evidence that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be is ...
the Bible prophecies that He fulfilled

If the Bible is not the true word of the true god of what matter is the fulfillment of its prophecies?

Who said that the Bible is not the true Word of God? Some of it might be stories so not literally true but rather intended to convey spiritual truths, and some of it might not be exactly what Jesus said, but it is the “inspired” Word of God.

Contrariwise, if Biblical prophecies did come to pass, then the Bible must be the true word of the true god.

That is what happened alright. The prophecies of the OT and the NT were fulfilled by Baha’u’llah. How they were fulfilled is explained in this book: William Sears, Thief in the Night

The evidence that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be is ...
the predictions He made that have come to pass;

Such as?

Here is a partial list of specific things Baha’u’llah predicted that later came to pass:

1. The fall from power of the French Emperor Napoleon III and the consequent loss of his empire.
2. The defeat of Germany in two bloody wars, resulting in the 'lamentations of Berlin'.
3. The success and stability of Queen Victoria's reign.
4. The dismissal of 'All Pasha as prime minister of Turkey.
5. The overthrow and murder of Sultan 'Abdu'l-'Aziz of Turkey.
6. The break up of the Ottoman Empire, leading to the extinction of the 'outward splendour' of its capital, Constantinople.
7. The downfall of Nasiri'd-Din Shah, the Persian monarch.
8. The advent of constitutional government in Persia.
9. A massive (albeit temporary) decline in the fortunes of monarchy throughout the world.
10. A worldwide erosion of ecclesiastical authority.
11. The collapse of the Muslim Caliphate.
12. The spread of communism, the 'Movement of the Left', and its rise to world power.
13. The catastrophic decline of that same movement, triggered by the collapse of its egalitarian economy.
14. The rise of Israel as a Jewish homeland.
15. The persecution of Jews on the European continent (the Nazi holocaust).
16. America's violent racial struggles.
17. Baha'u'llah's release from the prison of 'Akka and the pitching of His tent on Mount Carmel.
18. The seizure and desecration of Baha'u'llah's House in Baghdad.
19. The failure of all attempts to create schism within the Baha'i Faith.
20. The explosive acceleration of scientific and technological progress.
21. The development of nuclear weapons.
22. The achievement of transmutation of elements, the age-old alchemist's dream.
23. Dire peril for all humanity as a result of that achievement.
24. The discovery that complex elements evolve in nature from simpler ones.
25. The recognition of planets as a necessary byproduct of star formation.
26. Space travel.
27. The realization that some forms of cancer are communicable.
28. Failure to find evidence for a 'missing link' between man and ape.
29. The non-existence of a mechanical ether (the supposed light-carrying substance posited by classical physics), and its redefinition as an abstract reality.
30. The breakdown of mechanical models (literal images) as a basis for understanding the physical world.

From: Gary L. Matthews, The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

 

[Sir Doom]

The middleman is needed to write stuff down and found a religion that is available for everyone. I am not going to get the communication he gets because I am not capable of receiving and understanding it.

Suit yourself.

Their qualifications is too big of an area to cover. That is like asking me to show you all the United States in one day.

Let's start with Florida. Tell me something that is definitely true about Bahuallah that could not be true unless he were a messenger of God.

Nobody can “prove” that they got an answer from God as the result of a prayer. Once, a few weeks ago, I was at my wits end and I was riding my bike to work and I cried out to God to give me a sign and let me know if He wants me to continue posting so much on forums, especially to certain atheists and Christians. As I recall, shortly thereafter it all became clear what I was supposed to do. I was able to be less compulsive about answering every post and I was able to cut back on starting new threads. By that time I was in total desperation because I was on overload and I did not know what I was doing or exactly why. It is clearer now but I will probably have to put in another prayer request soon.

Also, after that prayer I started to get less posts, which was quite unusual. I still have days like last Saturday when I spent a whole day posting back and forth to this one atheist on another forum, but that is not the norm. It is almost as if God is telling me to slow down and take a break. I even ate lunch on a weekend on three separate occasions, and I have not done that in five years. I normally will not take a break if I have posts to write, except for coffee.

I'm curious why you would be conflicted about posting on forums? I find it to be thoroughly thrilling.

What do you mean by that?

I mean that when one's every whim is satisfied need and want are identical.

I don’t think you would like it if He really did.

Like I said, God needs me. Nothing to worry about.

I am not rejecting the notion of getting signs; that is just not the same as hearing a Voice and getting a full data base revealed to you.

You literally said that God is not a tailor and then described him as tailoring. Seriously.

That is pretty much it, except that over time more than 1% of people get the message. As in the case of the message of Jesus, most everyone in the world knows about Jesus and His message, even though about one third of the world believe in Jesus.

And still paltry numbers in comparison to the 100% success rate of signs.

What was it?

That both methods are fundamentally identical and the only difference is that one works and one doesn't. The messenger being the one that doesn't.

Those who get signs are not better or worse. They are in a special category. They get signs because (a) God knows they need signs and (b) they are worthy of getting signs. It is probably because God knows that they will not believe any other way and God wants them to believe. There are many people who would not believe any other way but if they are unworthy, God won’t give them a sigh. It is all about sincerity and attitude towards God. People who make demands upon God are probably not going to get anything because God does not like people questioning Hid Authority.

Well, he must not like me much.

I did not say it would be difficult for God to do, but it would be downright silly, because it is unnecessary to send 7 billion messages all containing the same information.

Unnecessary? Hmm... Didn't you just say God doesn't need anything? Wouldn't that mean that everything is unnecessary and thus can't rule out anything based on it's unnecessaryness? Think about it...

In any case, you'll have to show that Messengers are necessary to make this argument work. And you can't do that. You are welcome to try.

What is unlucky about it?

I was continuing the previous notion that they are either better or worse. With the parentheses it's meant to be read as both lucky and unlucky.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@Trailblazer

I have two questions for you.

How do you reject something that does not exist to begin with?

and

How do I choose not to believe god exists when I never all my life believed he exists to begin with?

 

[ChristineM]

Simple. They were Blind.

Your opinion, without evidence, of sighted people who see reality and not woo is noted.

P.s. you should also note that the semiconductor, wifi, servers, browsers, electricity etc were not invented or controlled in the bronze age. What has blindness to do with what was non existent technology? So not so simple but if your choice of opinion saves you thinking about reality, so be it

 

[Bird123]

Your opinion, without evidence, of sighted people who see reality and not woo is noted.

P.s. you should also note that the semiconductor, wifi, servers, browsers, electricity etc were not invented or controlled in the bronze age. What has blindness to do with what was non existent technology? So not so simple but if your choice of opinion saves you thinking about reality, so be it

How long has lightning been around? How long has the materials to create all your items been around? Does one sit back and wait for others to come up with all the answers or does one Discover on their own?

So many just sit back deciding what beliefs to value, So many enjoy the inventions of others without understanding them or even attempting to discover on their own. Is a person supposed to just wait around for things to come to them through others?

Yes, there is an awful lot to learn. AS I see it, God has placed all the knowledge all around us. Perhaps the question is: Who will venture into undiscovered country to acquire knowledge or who will sit back waiting for everything to come to them, complaining not to know?

I have seen many many people box themselves within beliefs giving them an excuse to do nothing. All I can say is every choice brings lessons.