Questions for Atheists and Agnostics

[ChristineM]

Yes many waiting. I came across this about waiting in this day;

"...They confidently assert that such traditions as indicate the advent of the expected Qá’im have not yet been fulfilled, whilst they themselves have failed to inhale the fragrance of the meaning of these traditions, and are still oblivious of the fact that all the signs foretold have come to pass, that the way of God’s holy Cause hath been revealed, and the concourse of the faithful, swift as lightning, are, even now, passing upon that way, whilst these foolish divines wait expecting to witness the signs foretold. Say, O ye foolish ones! Wait ye even as those before you are waiting!"

That quote is from Baha'u'llah.

Peace be with you

Still waiting

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Still waiting

Ha ha, great response - I can see why you wait. What I have found is, that in life, we will be offered the opportunity to consider that we may be more then flesh.

Peace be upon you always.

 

[Trailblazer]

“So, like most other religions Baha’i Law permits sexual relations only between a man and wife.”

Why so uptight? Does Baha’i teach that life is just black and white? Does Baha’i not recognize there are many shades of gray between?

Why do you consider that uptight? I mean why do people have to have sex out of wedlock? I never had sex before I was a Baha’i because I always believed that it was sacred, reserved for marriage, and I was not raised in a religious home.

There are other reasons I could list, but below is the primary reason why sex is restricted to a man and wife, from the The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, which is the Book of Laws, considered the Most Holy Book of the Baha’i Faith.

“The Bahá’í teachings on sexual morality centre on marriage and the family as the bedrock of the whole structure of human society and are designed to protect and strengthen that divine institution. Bahá’í law thus restricts permissible sexual intercourse to that between a man and the woman to whom he is married.”
The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 223

Does Baha’i not recognize homosexuals, bi-sexuals, transgenders?

Homosexuality is prohibited by Baha’i Law. However, there are Baha’is who are homosexual and the Baha’i Faith administration does not ostracize, berate, or belittle homosexuals. If a member was openly declaring that they are a homosexual and a Baha’i, as in a gay bar, they might lose their voting rights, but they would never be ostracized from the Baha’i community.

An unmarried couple living together would not be ostracized either although the LSA (Local Spiritual Assembly) might talk to them about it.

Baha’is are not perfect so we do not follow all the Laws perfectly and Bahaullah has written that it is the “spirit” of the Law that is more important than the “letter” of the Law. That does not mean we should not struggle, but I am not going to hell just because I miss saying my daily obligatory prayer. I forget to say that a lot.

Again, that's pretty much the same as is taught by all other religions. The bible is the absolute truth of god; the Koran is the absolute truth of Allah.

All different absolute truths.
All different absolute truths.

The caveat is that they are only “absolute truths” for the ages in which they are revealed (called a religious dispensation). Truth is never absolute because more truth is always revealed by the next Messenger of God. Religious truth is never ending... It evolves over time just as scientific truth evolves over time.

However, the spiritual truths of all the major religions are the same and they are eternal. Only the social teachings and laws differ among the religions and also a new message that is suited for the times is revealed in every age. For example, the “new message” for this age is that humanity is one people and that we must be unified... That does not mean we should be uniform, but that we must work together for common goals, given all the problems the world is facing in this new age.

“The Bahá'í writings teach that there is but one humanity and all people are equal in the sight of God. The Bahá'í Faith emphasizes the unity of humanity transcending all divisions of race, nation, gender, caste, and social class, while celebrating its diversity.[5] `Abdu'l-Bahá states that the unification of mankind has now become "the paramount issue and question in the religious and political conditions of the world."[6] The Bahá'í writings affirm the biological, political, and spiritual unity of mankind.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahai_teachings

“I tried to become an atheist but it didn’t work because I cannot refute Baha’u’llah.”

Why would you try to become an atheist?

I sometimes have “issues” with God and how He created the world in which suffering is inherent, but logically speaking, disbelieving in God would not change that, would it?

But if I was an atheist, I would not have to blame God for it.

Also, the life of a believer is not as easy as “some atheists” think it is, at least not when a believer takes God seriously. I am sure not a good advertisement for becoming a believer, but I cannot be less than honest.

 

[Trailblazer]

“They do, but Muhammad did not write the Koran because He was illiterate.”

Many believe that is exactly why the Koran must be believed - the only way an illiterate man could write to Koran is through the divine guidance of Allah.
RE: JW Golden Tablets

I do not know a lot about Muhammad, but I am aware from an internet search that some people believe that Muhammad wrote the Koran. However, Baha’is believe it was dictated by Muhammad, and others wrote it down.

“No, they don’t qualify.”

That's a bold assertion with nothing to back it up. Anyone can say the Baha'i writings "don't qualify". Does that mean they are worthless as scripture?

Did you mean a bald assertion?

I meant that from a Baha’i perspective they do not qualify as a revelation from God, which is what would make them scriptures. That does not mean they are worthless, just that they were not revealed by a Messenger of God (which Baha’is usually refer to as a Manifestation of God), so they are not the Word of God.

Anyone can say anything about anything, but opinions and beliefs do not create reality. Logically speaking, the Baha’i Faith is either true or false, just like a woman is either pregnant of not pregnant. She cannot be both.

 

[Sir Doom]

God doeth whatsoever He willeth so it is good to keep an open mind.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

I do not believe God communicates to anyone but Messengers, but God can give people signs and there is evidence of that.

Again, you are splitting hairs. Please tell me, how much information can a 'sign' contain before it qualifies as 'communication'? Where is the line and why do you suppose God maintains this dubious distinction?

Messengers of God have successfully qualified their right to know what God wants as well as their ability to know.

Demonstrate that. I remain unconvinced.

It is not broken but God won’t pick it up and use it again until at least 2852 A.D.

Again, nonplussed. I can't begin to fathom how you thought this was a good response.

I don’t tell God what it won’t do, I just know what God won’t do.

There is no difference in this context.

Why do you think God needs you?

I exist.

That was cute and comprehensive, but that is not what Messengers do. They have evidence to back up their claims to be Messengers so it is not circular reasoning. I do not believe anyone is a Messenger just because they said they were a Messenger. That would be circular reasoning although it still could be true that they were a Messenger.

You've offered nothing more. Please be frank, what aside from their word is your evidence?

Forget the text message analogy. I was just trying to be cute. A sign is a sign and comes with no message. The Messenger hears a Voice. Nobody else hears the Voice of God through the Holy Spirit.

So we are talking about actual speech. Why do you consider speech to be superior to 'sign' considering the source?

I gathered that, but you did make me laugh. I needed some comic relief after what the atheists have put me through all day on another forum.

Mkay.

 

[Trailblazer]

However, they cannot see what they never even looked at.

“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp, he knows the truth!” Paris Talks, p. 103

A man declares ‘There is an unplugged lamp in a room which gives gives off a bright light’ . The wise man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, he sees the unplugged lamp gives off no light.

Another man declares ‘There is an unplugged lamp in a room which gives gives off a bright light’ . The wise man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, he sees the unplugged lamp gives off no light, he begins to suspect the truth!

Another man declares ‘There is an unplugged lamp in a room which gives gives off a bright light’ . The wise man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, he sees the unplugged lamp gives off no light, he knows the truth!

Another man declares ‘There is an unplugged lamp in a room which gives gives off a bright light’ .
The wise man is not so foolish as to look again.

I gather from what you said previously that you think there is no light coming from any lamps.
You said: “Investigating, finding nothing, and rejecting is not being blind. Investigating, finding nothing, and rejecting is being rational.”

Whereas that is true, that does not mean there is not “something” somewhere else. It would be illogical to say that there is nothing just because you have not found something yet. There was a time in history when the entire world had not been discovered, but that did not mean it did not exist.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes many waiting. I came across this about waiting in this day;
"...They confidently assert that such traditions as indicate the advent of the expected Qá’im have not yet been fulfilled, whilst they themselves have failed to inhale the fragrance of the meaning of these traditions, and are still oblivious of the fact that all the signs foretold have come to pass, that the way of God’s holy Cause hath been revealed, and the concourse of the faithful, swift as lightning, are, even now, passing upon that way, whilst these foolish divines wait expecting to witness the signs foretold. Say, O ye foolish ones! Wait ye even as those before you are waiting!"
That quote is from Baha'u'llah.

Yes many waiting. Below is one of my favorite passages;

“So blind hath become the human heart that neither the disruption of the city, nor the reduction of the mountain in dust, nor even the cleaving of the earth, can shake off its torpor. The allusions made in the Scriptures have been unfolded, and the signs recorded therein have been revealed, and the prophetic cry is continually being raised. And yet all, except such as God was pleased to guide, are bewildered in the drunkenness of their heedlessness!”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 39

 

[Trailblazer]

Why do i need hope when i have reality?

You do not need hope if you are satisfied with your own reality.
But you said you were "still waiting"
What are you waiting for if you already have reality?

 

[Trailblazer]

God doeth whatsoever He willeth so it is good to keep an open mind.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

No, saying anything does not make it so. One has to determine what is so if they want to know. Of course, we cannot prove anything about God, but we have the scriptures as evidence of what God is and what God does.

I do not believe God communicates to anyone but Messengers, but God can give people signs and there is evidence of that.

Again, you are splitting hairs. Please tell me, how much information can a 'sign' contain before it qualifies as 'communication'? Where is the line and why do you suppose God maintains this dubious distinction?

A sign is some kind of communication, but it is not a revelation from God. Only Messengers of God get revelations from God, whereby they are able to found a new religion.

Messengers of God have successfully qualified their right to know what God wants as well as their ability to know.

Demonstrate that. I remain unconvinced.

I cannot demonstrate that to you. You would have to read about them in order to know.

It is not broken but God won’t pick it up and use it again until at least 2852 A.D.

Again, nonplussed. I can't begin to fathom how you thought this was a good response.

It gets the point across and that point is that God is not going to send another Messenger any sooner than 2852 A.D.

Why do you think God needs you?

I exist.

Why would a God need you to exist? God is independent of, and transcends all His creatures.

“The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh,pp. 260

You've offered nothing more. Please be frank, what aside from their word is your evidence?

The evidence that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be is His character; the history of His life; what He did during His mission on earth; the scriptures that He wrote; what others have written about Him; the Bible prophecies that He fulfilled and the prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled; the predictions He made that have come to pass; the religion that was established as the result of His Revelation, what His followers all over the world have done and are doing now.

All this constitutes evidence that is verifiable.

So we are talking about actual speech.

It is not actual speech as we think of speech, not an actual voice that they hear. It is a Voice that only a Messenger can hear because they are tuned into the “God wavelength.” Only Messengers have receptors that are able to receive the Voice of God through the Holy Spirit. Only Messengers have the ability to take what they receive and translate it into words that humans can understand, so in that sense they Mediators between God and man.

Why do you consider speech to be superior to 'sign' considering the source?

Speech as I described it above is better than a sign because it conveys important information that can be written down and it is useful for all of humanity, not just for the one person who gets the sign.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you dont know the nature of god then you cant say his attributes are interconnected with his nature. Either his nature is his attributes that you know or the attributes describe the nature to which you cannot define.

Since you said you do not know the nature of god, his attributes only describes his external nature (i.e. color of pants and type of shirt) but not his nature (i.e. human being).
What is god to which these attributes describe?

We cannot EVER KNOW the intrinsic nature of God. All we can know are His Attributes, and only because Messengers such as Baha’u’llah revealed and reflected those Attributes.

If not, attributes can describe anything. Anyone god(s) can have the attributes to which you use for your god. You have to explain his nature in order to specify why these attributes go to your god and not general any god can have.
So god wont be vague.

God is very vague, since God is beyond anything that can EVER be recounted or perceived by anyone.

Some of those Attributes that God has are reflected in His Creation. Humans have the capacity to reflect God’s Attributes although some Attributes such as omnipotence and omniscience are unique to God.

I mean, anyone can trust a message but if they dont know the source of the message, I see no reason to trust it. You gotta know the source before the message. Its blind faith when you trust the message without wanting to know the source.

Nobody can KNOW the Source of the Message. All we can know is that the Source exists and we can know the Attributes of that Source.

How can you trust what bahaullah says about god without you even meeting or hearing for yourself what bahaullah says and know the nature to the god in order to correlate whether or not he is telling you the truth?

How do we trust anyone? We do not always get to meet those people we trust. If we vote for President, we have to find out what we can about the candidates, but we do not get to meet the candidates.

I researched the Life and Mission of Baha’u’llah and read His Writings, so I trust what He said about God is the truth.

If my life is based on someone elses words (say The Buddha), I would want to know who The Buddha is before I trust The Dharma. The way I do this, since The Buddha is not god nor did he teach of god in relation to enlightenment, is practice. I do what The Buddha did and find out for myself whether what he says is true based on practice.

Baha’is do the same with Baha’u’llah. We find out who He was before we trust Him, and we try to put what He taught into practice.

Without getting to know god personally, his attributes mean nothing. Personally, I have to know who Im believing in before I believe anything he says.

The only way that we can know God is through the Messengers of God such as Baha’u’llah or Jesus, etc., what they revealed about God. We can only have a relationship with God through them.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Im just in front of my computer bored as heck; but, I will try to answer these in one sentence or two

We cannot EVER KNOW the intrinsic nature of God. All we can know are His Attributes, and only because Messengers such as Baha’u’llah revealed and reflected those Attributes.

What is god to which these attributes describe?

If his nature is not his attributes, then there is no sense in believing in the attributes because they mean nothing without knowing to which these attributes describe.

God is very vague, since God is beyond anything that can EVER be recoun

Since god is vague, and his attributes does not define his nature, what exactly does god-being-vague mean? What is vague? aka whats the definition of god?

Some of those Attributes that God has are reflected in His Creation. Humans have the capacity to reflect God’s Attributes although some Attributes such as omnipotence and omniscience are unique to God.

Yes. Creation but that does not make sense. If god has no defined nature, to what in creation can we determine god or who god is if we only have a vague subject to compare it to?

Nobody can KNOW the Source of the Message. All we can know is that the Source exists and we can know the Attributes of that Source.

We cant know the source exists. Its too vague and has no definition to which these attributes describe. Youre believing in idea of god to which you cant define.

How do we trust anyone? We do not always get to meet those people we trust. If we vote for President, we have to find out what we can about the candidates, but we do not get to meet the candidates.

Thats why we build relationships.

However, in doing so, we build them with the actual person ot his friends, family, and coworkers.

I researched the Life and Mission of Baha’u’llah and read His Writings, so I trust what He said about God is the truth.

I dont understand that. I researched the writings of The Buddha's disciples but I didnt accept them as truth until I practiced them. So, instead of quoting scripture and idolizing the Dharma, I idolize my practice since the Practice is the Dhrama not the suttas.

So written book=truth doest add up in my head.

Baha’is do the same with Baha’u’llah. We find out who He was before we trust Him, and we try to put what He taught into practice.

But you have to know the thing bahaullah is talking about to which his words are valid of your trust. Since you cant define god, who and what exactly is bahaullah talking about to which he doesnt know himself?

The only way that we can know God is through the Messengers of God such as Baha’u’llah or Jesus, etc., what they revealed about God. We can only have a relationship with God through them.

Yes. I know that. Thats bahai and christian belief. Cant get to god but through his manifestations.

Doesnt make sense to people whose god is so personal that no prophet can replace.

I know if I believed in god, its just between god and me. Yes, the saints and jesus help me understand him but they are not the core of the relationship itself.

God and me

not god then bible then jesus than me
not god then bahai writings then bahauallah and me

Just me and god.

Can you explain in your words and intepretation how god can only speak through prophets when he is, well god?

No quotes. I cant read them. Go deeper than repeating what you said.

Well Almost two sentences

In other words (sum from above)

Go deeper and tell me your interpretaton and your words of how god can only speak through prophets given he is, well, god?

Why would I trust what you and bahauallah say if you cant do this?

 

[Bird123]

Evidence doesnt work like that. If its evidence its evidenc e for all otherwise its just opinion

How long and how many people watched birds fly and could see no evidence it was possible for mankind to fly?

All the secrets of the universe stare us in the face just like flying birds. How many are Blind to what exists right in front of their noses?

The evidence is there for all to see. Further, it has been there from the beginning.

 

[Trailblazer]

If his nature is not his attributes, then there is no sense in believing in the attributes because they mean nothing without knowing to which these attributes describe.

We cannot know the nature of God, only God’s Attributes.

I just accept that because there is nothing I can do about it, but I really don’t even want to know God’s nature because I do not need to know it.

Since god is vague, and his attributes does not define his nature, what exactly does god-being-vague mean? What is vague? aka whats the definition of god?

God cannot be defined because we can never know the nature of God. All we can know are some things about God, His Attributes.

Yes. Creation but that does not make sense. If god has no defined nature, to what in creation can we determine god or who god is if we only have a vague subject to compare it to?

If we are Baha’is, we just accept what Baha’u’llah revealed about God.
For me, the Writings of Baha’u’llah equal Truth because of how I think about them.

We cant know the source exists. Its too vague and has no definition to which these attributes describe. Youre believing in idea of god to which you cant define.

God is described by Baha’u’llah and that is all I need to know about God. Any more I would not be able to understand.

Thats why we build relationships.
However, in doing so, we build them with the actual person or his friends, family, and coworkers.

We cannot do that with God because we cannot meet God.

I dont understand that. I researched the writings of The Buddha's disciples but I didnt accept them as truth until I practiced them. So, instead of quoting scripture and idolizing the Dharma, I idolize my practice since the Practice is the Dhrama not the suttas.
So written book=truth doest add up in my head.

We all go about believing and living our beliefs differently. Even among Baha’is, we all think and process information differently.
For me, the Writings of Baha’u’llah equal Truth because of how I think about them.

But you have to know the thing bahaullah is talking about to which his words are valid of your trust. Since you cant define god, who and what exactly is bahaullah talking about to which he doesnt know himself?

Baha’u’llah knew more than we can ever know, but we cannot understand how he knew or what He knew because we are not a Manifestation of God.

Yes. I know that. Thats bahai and christian belief. Cant get to god but through his manifestations.

Doesnt make sense to people whose god is so personal that no prophet can replace.

I know if I believed in god, its just between god and me. Yes, the saints and jesus help me understand him but they are not the core of the relationship itself.

I do not believe we can have a personal relation with God directly because nobody has direct access to God. People can believe they do if they want to, but I do not believe they really have access.

Can you explain in your words and intepretation how god can only speak through prophets when he is, well god?

No quotes. I cant read them. Go deeper than repeating what you said.

I cannot say what God can do. I can only say what God chooses to do. God chooses to only speak through Messengers (Prophets). We cannot override what God chooses to do because we are not omnipotent.

It is just too bad if people do not like what God chooses to do. If they don’t like it they can choose to be atheists.

 

[Trailblazer]

How long and how many people watched birds fly and could see no evidence it was possible for mankind to fly?

All the secrets of the universe stare us in the face just like flying birds. How many are Blind to what exists right in front of their noses?

The evidence is there for all to see. Further, it has been there from the beginning.

Pardon the interruption, but I think the "issue" for atheists is that they do not attribute what they see all around them to God because they do not believe in God.

I do not think the universe is proof of God because there is no proof God created it... It is evidence of God, but only if one believes in God.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Ima go back and read it again; but, this stuck out at me.

God is described by Baha’u’llah and that is all I need to know about God. Any more I would not be able to understand.

God cannot be described.

His attributes is not his nature (as so reading from bahai, not all share this opinion). By definition, he cant explain anything.

Baha’u’llah knew more than we can ever know, but we cannot understand how he knew or what He knew because we are not a Manifestation of God.

He couldnt have. If you dont know gods nature, its hard to find its attributes. Thats like describing an invisible (actual invisible, not an analogy) friend but cant define what he is since he is invisible. Its illogical.

Edit.

 

[Bird123]

Investigating, finding nothing, and rejecting is not being blind. Investigating, finding nothing, and rejecting is being rational.

Discovery is not a matter of rejecting nor accepting.

Investigating?? Where? How? Is religion your only source of knowledge about God?

Do you see the world as a mess then assume there can be no God?

Logic dictates that any Being capable of creating all this has to be very very smart. Can you find no evidence of intelligence anywhere?

People want everything to be their way. People want to have it made. Is everyone having it made really what is best for everyone?

With the Great Intelligence that created this world came Great Thinking. Can you widen your view enough to Discover what it's all about?

Time and time again people tell me this world is a mess. That is because they do not understand. This world is not a mess. It is a Masterpiece!!!

As I see it, in this time-based causal universe, God's actions can be seen. When one studies and understands some of these actions, it opens door to new things to study. In time, one comes to Understand God and what God is actually doing with this world.

As I see it. this will lead to God. Logic dictates. If God exists then God can be found. Perhaps, this is a good starting point for your investigation. On the other hand, I find few who actually want to find God.

The first thing God pointed out to me is that mankind carries such a narrow view. I cry that. I am always working on mine. For this hungry student, the knowledge one can acquire is almost limitless.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Good analogy

Bahaullah is trying to describe a painting he cannot see.

 

[Trailblazer]

God cannot be described.

God can be described, but not defined.
Define: state or describe exactly the nature, scope, or meaning of.

Defined means we can describe exactly the nature of God, but we can't.

He couldnt have. If you dont know gods nature, its hard to find its attributes. Thats like describing an invisible (actual invisible, not an analogy) friend but cant define what he is since he is invisible. Its illogical.

No, it is not illogical....
We do not need to know the nature of God in order to describe the Attributes of God because the Attributes and the Nature are entirely separate....

• The Attributes are the qualities of God such as good, just, merciful, loving, omnipotent, etc.

• The Nature of God (God's Essence) is what God is comprised of, where God resides, how God functions.

NOBODY can know the Essence of God, not even Baha'u'llah.
But Baha'u'llah did know God in a way that we are unable to know God. That is why He knew the Attributes of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Good analogy

Bahaullah is trying to describe a painting he cannot see.

Baha'u'llah did not have to see God in order to know something about God.
We cannot know HOW the Prophets know God because we are not Prophets.
Prophets are another "order" of God's creation, above an ordinary human being.

"We will have experience of God's spirit through His Prophets in the next world, but God is too great for us to know without this Intermediary. The Prophets know God, but how is more than our human minds can grasp. We believe we may attain in the next world to seeing the Prophets. There is certainly a future life. Heaven and hell are conditions within our own beings."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, November 14, 1947)
From: Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File

 

[Bird123]

Pardon the interruption, but I think the "issue" for atheists is that they do not attribute what they see all around them to God because they do not believe in God.

I do not think the universe is proof of God because there is no proof God created it... It is evidence of God, but only if one believes in God.

I am not talking about beliefs. There should be no bias in your investigation.

As I became an adult I realized so much of religion simply did not add up. At this point, I started a journey to Discovery. I wanted to know the Real Truth. I was open to all possibilities even if it were to lead me to truth that I did not readily agree with.

Logic dictates that If God exists, then God can be found.
Logic dictates that any Being capable of creating this universe has to be very very smart and that I would have to stretch my capabilities and thinking to the limit.
Logic dictates that if High Intelligence created this universe it would have to add up perfectly not as with the beliefs of people and religion.
Logic dictates that in a time-based causal universe, one's actions can be seen. The basic moves of God and the system have to be there in order for the system to work.
Logic dictates one can learn about someone through their actions much better than any other way. Others can not alter those actions regardless.
Logic dictates the more one discovers the faster discovery comes simply because one has more information. Even with baby steps one moves forward.

Are you starting to get the picture? It's not beliefs. It's Math.
Yes, it has been a remarkable journey. On the other hand, there is so much to Discover. I will always be a hungry student of God.

Reality is so much better than Beliefs.

Still, as I see it, Believing has never ever been important to God. That is not what is going on with this world.

The only advice I can give is to Be who you must! It's a part of the Plan!