Questions for Atheists and Agnostics

[Unveiled Artist]

God can be described, but not defined.
Define: state or describe exactly the nature, scope, or meaning of.

Defined means we can describe exactly the nature of God, but we can't.

No, it is not illogical....
We do not need to know the nature of God in order to describe the Attributes of God because the Attributes and the Nature are entirely separate....

• The Attributes are the qualities of God such as good, just, merciful, loving, omnipotent, etc.

• The Nature of God (God's Essence) is what God is comprised of, where God resides, how God functions.

NOBODY can know the Essence of God, not even Baha'u'llah.
But Baha'u'llah did know God in a way that we are unable to know God. That is why He knew the Attributes of God.

My point (before I read). You cannot describe something you cannot define.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Do you have these quotes memorized?? Sounds regurgitated.

Define: state or describe exactly the nature, scope, or meaning of

You cant describe something you cant define (Yes,I know the definitions).

God can be described, but not defined.

Define: state or describe exactly the nature, scope, or meaning of.

Defined means we can describe exactly the nature of God, but we can't.

Since you cant define god, there is no way to describe him.

If you dont know the noun (person, place, or thing), you cant use adjectives (attributes that describe the noun) to describe it.

No, it is not illogical....

We do not need to know the nature of God in order to describe the Attributes of God because the Attributes and the Nature are entirely separate....

Of course you do. God is a noun. Bahaullah is describing his attributes. Yet, he doesnt know what hes describing.

Like describing a painting he admits he cant see

NOBODY can know the Essence of God, not even Baha'u'llah. But Baha'u'llah did know God in a way that we are unable to know God. That is why He knew the Attributes of God.

Yes, I know. Thats why my point still stands.

Baha'u'llah did not have to see God in order to know something about God.

How so? When you know something about god, that "something" is usually an adjective. But,,, since there is no noun, we dont know that something is to which he is describing. You can label it god, essense, jesus christ for that matter; the point still stansd.

We cannot know HOW the Prophets know God because we are not Prophets.
Prophets are another "order" of God's creation, above an ordinary human being.

Yes. Prophets have no meaning when they dont know what they are describing.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Baha'u'llah did not have to see God in order to know something about God.
We cannot know HOW the Prophets know God because we are not Prophets.
Prophets are another "order" of God's creation, above an ordinary human being.

"We will have experience of God's spirit through His Prophets in the next world, but God is too great for us to know without this Intermediary. The Prophets know God, but how is more than our human minds can grasp. We believe we may attain in the next world to seeing the Prophets. There is certainly a future life. Heaven and hell are conditions within our own beings."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, November 14, 1947)
From: Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File

Huh?

Baha'u'llah did not have to see God in order to know something about God.

See? I said define his nature.

Bahaullah needs to know what he is describing before he can list his attributes.

I am not reading your scriptures. Do you have these memorized??

 

[Trailblazer]

I am not talking about beliefs. There should be no bias in your investigation.

I am not talking about beliefs either. I am talking about facts. I do not think the universe is proof of God because there is no proof God created it... It is evidence of God, but only if one believes in God.

Assuming that God exists without proof is a bias.

As I became an adult I realized so much of religion simply did not add up. At this point, I started a journey to Discovery. I wanted to know the Real Truth. I was open to all possibilities even if it were to lead me to truth that I did not readily agree with.

With all due respect, I believe the only truth from God comes through revelation to Messengers, which then become religions. The older religions have been corrupted by humans through the course of time, so they no longer represent what was originally revealed. That is one reason why God sends a “new” Messenger in every new age, to renew the eternal religion of God.

Logic dictates that If God exists, then God can be found.

That depends upon what you mean by God and what you mean by found.
Can God be located by a GPS tracking device?

We see God reflected in all of creation, if we believe in God, but we can never see God.
Logic dictates that if an ineffable transcendent God exists, that God is out of the reach of any human being.

Logic dictates that any Being capable of creating this universe has to be very very smart and that I would have to stretch my capabilities and thinking to the limit.

That is true, if we accept the premise that God created the universe.

Logic dictates that if High Intelligence created this universe it would have to add up perfectly not as with the beliefs of people and religion.

If you mean that God is beyond any beliefs of people and religion I can agree with that. God is infinite and people and religion are finite.

Logic dictates that in a time-based causal universe, one's actions can be seen. The basic moves of God and the system have to be there in order for the system to work.

Logic only dictates that if one accepts the premise that God exists and is in control of everything. One could also use logic to argue for the nonexistence of God and humans being the highest entities who are in control of everything.

Logic dictates one can learn about someone through their actions much better than any other way. Others can not alter those actions regardless.

I can agree with that. As Baha’u’llah said in His Hidden Words, “let deeds not words be your adorning.”

Logic dictates the more one discovers the faster discovery comes simply because one has more information. Even with baby steps one moves forward.

I can agree with that. As Abdu’l-Baha said, we progress “little by little, day by day.”
Are you starting to get the picture? It's not beliefs. It's Math.

Yes, it has been a remarkable journey. On the other hand, there is so much to Discover. I will always be a hungry student of God.

Me too... There is always more that we can learn, till the end of this life and thereafter.

Reality is so much better than Beliefs.

They are not mutually exclusive if we “live” our beliefs.

Still, as I see it, Believing has never ever been important to God. That is not what is going on with this world.

God does not need our belief, but God wants us to believe in Him and His Messenger for our own benefit, and for the benefit of the whole world. What is wrong with this world is summed up here...

“The vitality of men’s belief in God is dying out in every land; nothing short of His wholesome medicine can ever restore it. The corrosion of ungodliness is eating into the vitals of human society; what else but the Elixir of His potent Revelation can cleanse and revive it? Is it within human power, O Hakím, to effect in the constituent elements of any of the minute and indivisible particles of matter so complete a transformation as to transmute it into purest gold? Perplexing and difficult as this may appear, the still greater task of converting satanic strength into heavenly power is one that We have been empowered to accomplish. The Force capable of such a transformation transcendeth the potency of the Elixir itself. The Word of God, alone, can claim the distinction of being endowed with the capacity required for so great and far-reaching a change.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 200

 

[Trailblazer]

My point (before I read). You cannot describe something you cannot define.

We can describe it in part.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

We can describe it in part.

In part?

Some parts of gods nature can be defined but not the rest?

His nature not his attributes

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I just accept that because there is nothing I can do about it, but I really don’t even want to know God’s nature because I do not need to know it.

Thats why it doesnt make sense. I see no reason to trust bahaullah is right about gods attributes when he, himself, doesnt know the nature to which those attributes describe.

God cannot be defined because we can never know the nature of God. All we can know are some things about God, His Attributes.

Thats why the attributes are empty. They have to describe something that actually exists. The nature in and of itself defines the existence of god. When you know the nature, god comes into being because its personal. I know thati s not what you believe; it make more sense to communicate with god on on one. I know you cant do it; but, many people can. I see nor eason to say they are wrong just because I believe different.

Thats the difference between us (going by below)

If we are Baha’is, we just accept what Baha’u’llah revealed about God.
For me, the Writings of Baha’u’llah equal Truth because of how I think about them.

Im not a prophet or sacred book person. The Dharma (practice) defines how I life. The suttas/scripure does not. I mean, you can feel below god or limited to god. Christian faith actually puts man eye to eye to god in the name of a person who he knows his fathers nature. I would not call him god nor a god-prophet because of it, but thats scripture.

God is described by Baha’u’llah and that is all I need to know about God. Any more I would not be able to understand.

We can trust anyone we want. That doesnt mean that trust makes something a fact. Its an opinion or belief.

We cannot do that with God because we cannot meet God.

Yes we can. Your belief says we cannot.

We all go about believing and living our beliefs differently. Even among Baha’is, we all think and process information differently For me, the Writings of Baha’u’llah equal Truth because of how I think about them.

I dont understand that. You would need to explain it in your words a bit deeper not Bahaullahs.

Baha’u’llah knew more than we can ever know, but we cannot understand how he knew or what He knew because we

I dont understand that. I never put people below me or worship people above me. We see eye to eye. Thats a true relationship with anyone god or not. Thats why jesus came to "dwell among the people." The purpose was to worship his father in his name not worship him (or bahaullah or anyone else) as if they know about the creator the rest of us dont know.

I do not believe we can have a personal relation with God directly because nobody has direct access to God.

People can believe they do if they want to, but I do not believe they really have access.

The first part is your belief. The last part, yes, they do have access despite what you believe. The thing is, do you accept it or tell them they are wrong.

I cannot say what God can do. I can only say what God chooses to do.

God chooses to only speak through Messengers (Prophets). We cannot override what God chooses to do because we are not omnipotent.

Huh? Know what god chooses to do but cant know what he can do? You know gods decisions but dont know if he has the ability to carry out those decisons?

God overrides our view by his being able to communicate with us not the other way around. Thats limiting god.

It is just too bad if people do not like what God chooses to do. If they don’t like it they can choose to be atheists.

Nope. Not too bad. Everyone benefits from god differently.

The thing is, do we accept it or call them out.

No one choses to be atheist. That makes no sense whatsoever.

Think about it. I never was raised in a religious family; never indoctrinated. Never heard of god until I was about seventeen. Did not know god only the person jesus. Then, at what thirty two I joined the catholic church.

I only knew what god is through jesus-the person. When I found out he pointed to god, I stoped going. Not because of catholicism but becuase you need to know god exists before you believe in his prophets and manifestations.

If not, all the quotes and scripture in the world is all foreign language both literally (depending on the text and language translation) and spiritualy (depending on what one believes).

I never heard the word atheist until I came on RF.

So, where does this choice come from to be an atheist?

Wouldnt it make sense that I believe in god first before I can chose to not believe in him?

The logic is off.

I would like an explanation of this, though. People get kicked out of their homes others mad at god because of how they should have chosen right when they chose wrong. If bahaullah and god were of peace, I think the language would be different.​

 

[Sir Doom]

No, saying anything does not make it so. One has to determine what is so if they want to know. Of course, we cannot prove anything about God, but we have the scriptures as evidence of what God is and what God does.

I was referring to you holding the notions you do regarding God and at the same time professing the goodness of an open mind.

A sign is some kind of communication, but it is not a revelation from God. Only Messengers of God get revelations from God, whereby they are able to found a new religion.

Then it is fair to say that God communicates in at least two ways, wouldn't it?

I cannot demonstrate that to you. You would have to read about them in order to know.

As I've said before, the words coming from you are better evidence. Thus, as you state, you cannot demonstrate neither can a book nor the dead man who wrote it demonstrate. I remain unconvinced.

It gets the point across and that point is that God is not going to send another Messenger any sooner than 2852 A.D.

No, it completely ignores the thread of conversation and amounts to a non sequitor. I assume because you had no useful response to the rhetorical question intended to imply that you personally admit to communication with God which you liken to a cell phone conversation, but still maintain the position that God only communicates through messengers.

Why would a God need you to exist? God is independent of, and transcends all His creatures.

Ask God. I don't have much choice in the matter.

“The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh,pp. 260

False dichotomy. Just because God gains nothing material doesn't mean God gains nothing at all. I exist, that tells me God considers me necessary.

The evidence that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be is His character; the history of His life; what He did during His mission on earth; the scriptures that He wrote; what others have written about Him; the Bible prophecies that He fulfilled and the prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled; the predictions He made that have come to pass; the religion that was established as the result of His Revelation, what His followers all over the world have done and are doing now.

All this constitutes evidence that is verifiable.

A person's character and deeds are meaningless in this context. People with bahuallahs influence (regardless of source) should result in positive change. That's a given. No one scores points for NOT being a megalomaniac. You aren't supposed to be that.

You seem to be keen on predictions and we'll go with that. What you can show me is the list of positive effects attributed to one of Bahaullahs predictions before it came true, by way of preparing for the inevitable events laid down within the prediction. Such that the prediction was successfully conveyed in time to make a difference. Good luck with that.

It is not actual speech as we think of speech, not an actual voice that they hear. It is a Voice that only a Messenger can hear because they are tuned into the “God wavelength.” Only Messengers have receptors that are able to receive the Voice of God through the Holy Spirit. Only Messengers have the ability to take what they receive and translate it into words that humans can understand, so in that sense they Mediators between God and man.

You seem very clear as to how God speaks to messengers (despite not being one) but you aren't so clear about what a sign is by comparison. Try that one.

Speech as I described it above is better than a sign because it conveys important information that can be written down and it is useful for all of humanity, not just for the one person who gets the sign.

Oh I see, so the difference is how many people it matters to. When God wants to communicate to everyone God picks one person, gives them an esoteric experience which then gets subjected to a decades long telephone game and eventually roughly 1% of human beings will very nearly get the message (nowhere near enough to explain it, apparently).

Or when God wants to communicate with just one person God gives that person... An equally esoteric experience that changes their life forever.

So, the problem here is that one method is 100% successful the other just isn't. Now, tell me again why God uses Messengers knowing God also uses signs that are infinitely more successful?

 

[Trailblazer]

In part?

Some parts of gods nature can be defined but not the rest?

No part of God's Nature can be defined.
Only God's Attributes can be described.

 

[Trailblazer]

I know that is not what you believe; it make more sense to communicate with god on on one. I know you cant do it; but, many people can. I see nor eason to say they are wrong just because I believe different.

I do not believe that anyone can communicate with God one on one, not even Messengers of God. People are free to believe anything they want to but that does not make it true.

We can trust anyone we want. That doesnt mean that trust makes something a fact. Its an opinion or belief.

I never said it was a fact. It is a belief.

We cannot do that with God because we cannot meet God

Yes we can. Your belief says we cannot.

No, my rational mind says we cannot meet God.

The first part is your belief. The last part, yes, they do have access despite what you believe. The thing is, do you accept it or tell them they are wrong.

Can they prove they have access? Can you prove they have access? Otherwise, it is just a belief.

I am not telling them they are wrong, but I consider it absurd for anyone to believe they have "direct" access to God. I do not have to accept what other people believe. I have a right to my own beliefs.

No one choses to be atheist. That makes no sense whatsoever.

That is not true. There are atheists who have told me they choose to be atheists.

 

[Trailblazer]

I was referring to you holding the notions you do regarding God and at the same time professing the goodness of an open mind.

My mind is open to other possibilities unless they are in stark contrast to what Baha’u’llah revealed.

Then it is fair to say that God communicates in at least two ways, wouldn't it?

I guess so, and maybe even more ways than two.

As I've said before, the words coming from you are better evidence. Thus, as you state, you cannot demonstrate neither can a book nor the dead man who wrote it demonstrate. I remain unconvinced.

You’d have to be more specific in what you want to know.

No, it completely ignores the thread of conversation and amounts to a non sequitor. I assume because you had no useful response to the rhetorical question intended to imply that you personally admit to communication with God which you liken to a cell phone conversation, but still maintain the position that God only communicates through messengers.

Anybody can talk to God in prayer so that is what I was referring to. We can pick our cell phone and call upon God. God might answer a prayer or not, but God won’t speak to us directly.

Why would a God need you to exist? God is independent of, and transcends all His creatures.

Ask God. I don't have much choice in the matter.

That does not mean God needs you to exist, but rather God wants you to exist. There is a big difference between need and want.

False dichotomy. Just because God gains nothing material doesn't mean God gains nothing at all. I exist, that tells me God considers me necessary.

No, God does not need anything from anyone. God is sully self-sufficient. You exist, and that means that God allows you to exist.

A person's character and deeds are meaningless in this context. People with bahuallahs influence (regardless of source) should result in positive change. That's a given. No one scores points for NOT being a megalomaniac. You aren't supposed to be that.

The Baha’i Faith has resulted in positive change, all over the world.

You seem to be keen on predictions and we'll go with that. What you can show me is the list of positive effects attributed to one of Bahaullahs predictions before it came true, by way of preparing for the inevitable events laid down within the prediction. Such that the prediction was successfully conveyed in time to make a difference. Good luck with that.

Why would there be positive effects attributed to one of Baha’u’llah’s predictions before they came true? Most of His predictions were warnings about negative events that would unfold.

You seem very clear as to how God speaks to messengers (despite not being one) but you aren't so clear about what a sign is by comparison. Try that one.

I know more about how God speaks to Messengers because Baha’u’llah described how God spoke. By contrast, I only know a couple of people who got signs and I am pretty sure that people who get a sign get different signs which are tailored to what they need and can understand. Does that make sense?

Oh I see, so the difference is how many people it matters to. When God wants to communicate to everyone God picks one person, gives them an esoteric experience which then gets subjected to a decades long telephone game and eventually roughly 1% of human beings will very nearly get the message (nowhere near enough to explain it, apparently).

That is pretty much it, except that over time more than 1% of people get the message. As in the case of the message of Jesus, most everyone in the world knows about Jesus and His message, even though about one third of the world believe in Jesus.

Or when God wants to communicate with just one person God gives that person... An equally esoteric experience that changes their life forever.

That is true. It changes their life forever.

So, the problem here is that one method is 100% successful the other just isn't. Now, tell me again why God uses Messengers knowing God also uses signs that are infinitely more successful?

For one thing, God wants people to choose to believe or not, and by using Messengers that gives them a choice. If God gave everyone a sign, everyone would believe because they would be sure God exists, but God does not want it to be that easy. God only wants people to believe in Him if they care enough to look for Him and find Him.

The other obvious reason God uses Messengers is because they can receive a lot of information and write it down so everyone in the world has access to it.

Signs are only successful to convey that God exists but there is no point knowing God exists unless you know something about God and what God wants you to do.

 

[Sir Doom]

My mind is open to other possibilities unless they are in stark contrast to what Baha’u’llah revealed.

Suit yourself, of course.

I guess so, and maybe even more ways than two.

Well, good. Now you know that God can communicate with you directly and there is no need for a middle man. I hope that helps you.

You’d have to be more specific in what you want to know.

I asked you to demonstrate that Messengers of God had been qualified, as that is the statement you made. I still want that.

Anybody can talk to God in prayer so that is what I was referring to. We can pick our cell phone and call upon God. God might answer a prayer or not, but God won’t speak to us directly.

Please describe an answer you have received.

That does not mean God needs you to exist, but rather God wants you to exist. There is a big difference between need and want.

Not for omnipotence there isn't.

No, God does not need anything from anyone. God is sully self-sufficient. You exist, and that means that God allows you to exist.

I'd like to see God try and stop me from existing.

The Baha’i Faith has resulted in positive change, all over the world.

Why would there be positive effects attributed to one of Baha’u’llah’s predictions before they came true? Most of His predictions were warnings about negative events that would unfold.

Because the prediction is useless otherwise. If no one prepared for the prediction to come true, then it failed in it's task.

I know more about how God speaks to Messengers because Baha’u’llah described how God spoke. By contrast, I only know a couple of people who got signs and I am pretty sure that people who get a sign get different signs which are tailored to what they need and can understand. Does that make sense?

Yes, it makes sense. I said it to you like four posts ago and your are still in the process of rejecting the notion. Where is my "I win" emoji?

That is pretty much it, except that over time more than 1% of people get the message. As in the case of the message of Jesus, most everyone in the world knows about Jesus and His message, even though about one third of the world believe in Jesus.

That is true. It changes their life forever.

You obviously missed my point.

For one thing, God wants people to choose to believe or not, and by using Messengers that gives them a choice. If God gave everyone a sign, everyone would believe because they would be sure God exists, but God does not want it to be that easy. God only wants people to believe in Him if they care enough to look for Him and find Him.

Except those who get signs. So I'm confused. Those who get signs are better than the rest of us (because they warrant special attention) or are worse than the rest if us (because they aren't worth wasting free will on)?

The other obvious reason God uses Messengers is because they can receive a lot of information and write it down so everyone in the world has access to it.

There is no such thing as 'a lot' to omnipotent God. It takes just as much effort to send one message as it does to send 7 billion messages. That is to say no effort at all.

Signs are only successful to convey that God exists but there is no point knowing God exists unless you know something about God and what God wants you to do.

Unless you happen to be the (un)lucky atheist you know who got a sign.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No part of God's Nature can be defined.
Only God's Attributes can be described.

You are repeating yourself. Im asking a different question.

My point (before I read). You cannot describe something you cannot define.

You can in part???

If his attributes is not his nature, what are the attributes describing to which I know it is god and not someone else?​

Anyone can have the attributes bahaullah talks about.

What makes it specific to god when we have no basis of comparison to know if its god or something or someone else?​

I am not asking what you believe.

I am asing the logic behind it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I do not believe that anyone can communicate with God one on one, not even Messengers of God. People are free to believe anything they want to but that does not make it true.

I know that is what you believe

I cant tell if what you believe is true, logically, because you dont describe the logistics behind it just repeat what it is you believe or dont.

I never said it was a fact. It is a belief.

I know. I said that.

If you know something is true because its your logical experience and spiritual conviction, by definition, it becomes fact.

If you dont believe what you believe is true because you dont know it, then it is not. If its not fact, why believe it?

No, my rational mind says we cannot meet God

I know.

Yes we can. Your belief says you cant.

It kinda puts a dent on the messengers purpose, though. If they cant describe god, what are his attributes to which describes something it cannot define in order to varify what he describes is true?

I am not asking what you believe; I know that

I am asking you the logic behind it

I am not telling them they are wrong, but I consider it absurd for anyone to believe they have "direct" access to God. I do not have to accept what other people believe. I have a right to my own beliefs.

If they are not wrong, are they right?

Are they right that they can have direct access to god?

You dont have to be mean to say someone is wrong or absurd or whatever

That is not true. There are atheists who have

But atheists, the people, dont define atheism; thats generalization.

I am asking the logic behind why and how you now some atheists of how one choose to not believe.

Can you you choose not to believe something you didnt believe to begin with?​

 

[ChristineM]

You do not need hope if you are satisfied with your own reality.
But you said you were "still waiting"
What are you waiting for if you already have reality?

More than satisfied thank you.

So many people tell me 'their god is real', or tell me ''my prophet is the only true messenger of god' or... or... or...
I am still waiting for evidence of their claim to materialise, its never happened yet despite their protestations that they have such evidence but are inexplicably unable to provide any valid evidence whatsoever. Until such evidence is offered those people are simply making claims of opinion.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@Trailblazer

Im asking the logtistics of your belief. For example,

1. I know god does not exist

2. How do you know?

3. I researched that the existence of god is embedded in culture, history, and psychological application and belief to explain the nature of their existence.

4. Whats the (real time) logistics in that?

5. For example, take christianity. They believe god created the earth. He must have or they wouldnt be here. Its a pattern. See. When someone needs to find origin, they ask questions about the place in the universe. They Feel there is something more. So, we develop cultural rituals (say prayer and ways of devotion) to bring out what that person feels. In this case, the christian feels inside someone created teh world and people. Just christianity mirrors the truth of their conviction.

Same with bahai, muslim, and jew. Excluding other god-beliefs since their view of god and/or origin and purpose is different if its even present at all.

6. But what about death and the afterlife? Dont you believe that?

7. No. I dont.The logistics behind it is people fear death. But, if you noticed, the way they explain the afterlife is interrelated to what they know of in this life. Carbon copy of wants, needs, and desires.

Oh. Another thing about god not existing is the prophetism.

8. What do you mean

9. The logistics behind a prophet is to connect what a person cant see through a person that can be seen. So, in that sense, when someone has a visual, written, or mental image of something to someone in this life, they can understand in their interpretation the role of the past.

For example, take a child who lost his mother. He is adopted at a young age, so all he knows about his mother is through his adopted one. His adopted mother because his actual mother because he cannot communicate with his mother so he knows nothing else.

Which makes sense, logicaly. Given the biological mother is god and the prophet is the adopted mother, how else can you know about ones biological mother unless the adopted mother says something.

That makes sense, but when one gets older, they start to reason. Is this my real mother? My adopted mother tells me about her alot, but I cant get to know her personaly.

The reason why people believe in prophets is because they believe they cant talk to their biological mother That is far from the truth. If one took the time, energy, and understanding to look for their biological mother, they may find her. That doesnt depreciate the adopted mother. It just means wha the adpted mother says relieves the faith and validates her statement with knowledge.

Its a different way of going about finding truth.

Trailer-thats the logics behind what I believe. I stated it as the theme and supported it with points related and gave examples personal, alagoric, an factual to validate my points to support my theme as a whole.

 

[ChristineM]

How long and how many people watched birds fly and could see no evidence it was possible for mankind to fly?

All the secrets of the universe stare us in the face just like flying birds. How many are Blind to what exists right in front of their noses?

The evidence is there for all to see. Further, it has been there from the beginning.

Straw man. Flight by mankind is down to advances in mechanics and understanding of aerodynamics. Until those skills were honed flight my man was just a dream because evolution took a different path.

You are welcome to belief, but tell me, why did not bronze age man use the internet to spread their religion globally if the evidence of quantum mechanics, particle physics and software engineering have there for all to see from the beginning?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

deja vu

 

[Trailblazer]

More than satisfied thank you.

I'm glad.

 

[ChristineM]

deja vu

Have you said that before?