Questions for Atheists and Agnostics

[Trailblazer]

Yeah, she was utterly dishonest and selfish. Maybe they did discuss it and she lied. One has to wonder what would make a person so deceitful.

How did she expect to have kids if she wouldn't have sex?

Maybe, maybe, maybe.... How do you know what happened? I just told you a story that my husband's mother told him. We do not have any details about what happened. Maybe they discussed it, maybe not. Maybe she wanted kids but did not realize she would react this way when the prospect of what she had to do to get them became a reality. Maybe this was a complete surprise to both her and her husband. Anything is possible.

A person is not selfish just because they won't give their body to someone else. A person's body is their own. Forcing someone to have sex when they don't want it is selfish. Go get it somewhere else. I don't have a problem with men going to a prostitute of they need to. That's what they're there for.

 

[ecco]

Every Discovery in science stems from seeking to find, opening eyes to the possibilities, being willing to venture into Undiscovered Country. Let's not forget that Discovery takes lots of work. It's never served up on a plate as Beliefs are.

So?

What I have been speaking of has not been isolated in only religion. AS I see it religion is a creation of mankind.

Yep, right after man created gods he created religion in order to tell the sheeples how to worship those gods.

Even science started with Beliefs,

More accurately, science started with disbelief - disbelief in GodDidIt.

This is why I see science discovering God before religion will.

Which god? Are any scientists trying to verify that everything was created Last Thursday?

Perhaps, religions were really created by people because deep down they knew we are all Spiritual Beings in our true natures.

I'll repeat it in case you missed it:
Yep, right after man created gods he created religion in order to tell the sheeples how to worship those gods.

Can you tell the difference between your physical and spiritual self?

What makes you think I have a spiritual self?

 

[ecco]

It is illogical to say that because men have a certain nature that all men have more than one wife for the reason “you think they do.” I will send you another post about the three wives of Baha’u’llah and you can draw your own conclusions.

It isn’t uptight just because you say it is. That is nothing but a personal opinion, to which you have a right.

Uptight: anxious or angry in a tense and overly controlled way. https://www.google.com/search

There is no “reason” to think that anyone is uptight just because they do not believe in sex outside of marriage.

I do not know if God was pondering. Maybe God was just waiting for when the time was right to create humans. Hell if I know, God’s actions are far above my pay grade.

By reading about Him, according to documented history, people who knew Him personally. That is documented in The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892. The ministry of Baha'u'llah from1953-1892, is covered in God Passes By.

No, you do not know that Baha’is shame their children if they are homosexuals.

Nobody dumps guilt on anyone else. We are all responsible fro our own feelings. If someone feels guilty about sex, they cannot blame anyone else. Even if children were raised that way they can break free later.

No, we do not lay guilt trips on anyone, we just have Laws. Moreover, there is no reason to think that any Baha’is feel guilty. If they break a Law they might feel guilty but that is appropriate guilt, because they are going against the Laws if their own religion.

Of course I cannot know for certain anything that God did, not in an objective way... But I do know that God spoke to Baha’u’llah because of all the evidence that indicates that, without having to be there when Baha’u’llah got His Revelation. There were witnesses to His Revelation but even they could not know that God was speaking to Baha’u’llah, only Baha’u’llah and God knew.

I certainly did not take “His Word” for it. If that is all I had, it would be circular reasoning to believe in Him... I looked at all the categories of evidence I posted to you on the other thread.

It is illogical to assume that all believers believe in a religion just because they want to, because there can be other reasons, and that might not even be one of the reasons.

You are certainly wrong about my “wanting to believe it.” For about 42 years I did not want to believe it and I turned by back on the Baha’i Faith almost completely. But about five years ago, I decided I was ready to come back and take it seriously.

Yes it does; because we know that most people have overcome it that means that it is possible to overcome it. There are much worse things than feeling guilty about sex.

Who says I do? I do have an issue with people who do not practice what they believe but if I judge them it is my issue to overcome. I would never shame anyone over their behavior but I have a right to have an opinion about it and it would be dishonest if I said I thought hypocrisy was good behavior.

See my post #800.

 

[ecco]

No, my beliefs do not create reality. Reality just is. I just believe I have discovered it. I could be wrong but I am 100% sure I am right. That does not mean I am right, I am either right or wrong. I’ll find out later after I die, or not find out anything at all. I am not the least bit worried.

Realistically, my beliefs have more basis in reality than do the beliefs of those who believe Nyame or Shiva are the Only One REAL God because my beliefs have good evidence to support them. The fact that they are tied into by all the previous major religions is no small thing. Moreover, my beliefs can be true at the same time that the older religions can be true. No other religion can say that.

I said “That is my belief but it is also drop dead logical...” I NEVER said that or even insinuated that my belief is logical because I believe it. Nothing is logical because I believe it. That is exactly what this atheist I have been posting to on another forum thinks. He thinks that something is logical just because he says so and he has nothing to support his arguments except a personal opinion. I have now posted four threads on this forum to get opinions from other atheists and he won’t even consider opinions of other atheists because he is so sure he is right about everything...

For over three years he has been repeating the mantra that if god existed, god would communicate directly with everyone, to all 7.44 billion people in the world... God is obligated to communicate directly with everyone because a real Messenger of God cannot be distinguished from all the messengers who represented imaginary gods. He cannot even understand how utterly illogical that is on its very face, to dictate to an Omnipotent/Omniscient God how it should communicate with humanity. It is incredible.

See my post #800.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's a really lazy and dishonest way to have a discussion - see a headline, believe it supports your point of view, post a link and hope the readers will not take the time to actually read the article.

Well, sometimes I do read the articles. Often I find that the article does not really support what the poster thought it would. That was true in this case.

But I'll lessen your burden. I have no desire to continue wasting my time with you.

"post a link and hope the readers will not take the time to actually read the article."
How do you know what I am hoping for? I hope for nothing. This is not a game for me, win or lose. I am not trying to prove anything. If what I say is not supported by research I want to know that. I do not need to be right. I like being wrong because then I learn something when I find out what is right.

I do not consider it lazy to post a link to an article for others to read before reading it thoroughly. It is hardly lazy when one has over 30 posts to answer and spends the entire day and night answering them. It is a higher priority for me to respond to posts than read articles.

 

[ecco]

It also appears this comment was made without the knowledge why it was neccessary at times to have multipul wives.

You obviously did not take into consideration the context in which that comment was made.

Also your comment on the nature of men is not applicable to all men and is not appropriate, just as it would not be appropriate to make such comments about women.

You did not take into consideration the context in which I made that comment and since I did not say "all men" it is your comment that is inappropriate.

I don't mind you jumping into the middle of a conversation I'm having with someone else. But if you're going to do that, take the time to understand what the conversation is about. And then, make sure you don't misquote me.


It was Trailblazer who said:

All Muslim men had several wives.​

To which I responded:

All Muslim men?​

 

[Subduction Zone]

"post a link and hope the readers will not take the time to actually read the article."
How do you know what I am hoping for? I hope for nothing. This is not a game for me, win or lose. I am not trying to prove anything. If what I say is not supported by research I want to know that. I do not need to be right. I like being wrong because then I learn something when I find out what is right.

I do not consider it lazy to post a link to an article for others to read before reading it thoroughly. It is hardly lazy when one has over 30 posts to answer and spends the entire day and night answering them. It is a higher priority for me to respond to posts than read articles.

Actually he had a point. When citing an article it is always a good idea to quote a phrase from it, in context of course, and then linking it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You did not take into consideration the context in which I made that comment and since I did not say "all men" it is your comment that is inappropriate.

I don't mind you jumping into the middle of a conversation I'm having with someone else. But if you're going to do that, take the time to understand what the conversation is about. And then, make sure you don't misquote me.

Fair enough, I leave you with what I commented on from your remarks, which was;

"...Do you really think men have multiple wives for altruistic reasons? If you do you understand very little about the nature of men...."

I would note what nature other than altruistic, would you offer!

Peace be with you

 

[Trailblazer]

I think it's better than being miserable in a loveless marriage.

Baha’is are allowed to divorce, but only if one or both has an aversion for the other. Had I not followed that, I would have divorced because we had problems, but we never an aversion. I am sure Baha’is divorce for other reasons because not everyone follows the injunctions.

If that's what you think, why have you already drawn your conclusions?

I haven’t. I was just in a hurry so I did not have time to research it further.

I'm more interested in the practical truth as it exists right now, not with hypothetical fantasies about what you wish would happen.

All we can do is move forward and try to do the right thing. We cannot change the past. I do not know how you think this can be resolved.

"Instilling morals" has more to do with encouraging love and respect for LGBTQ people than it does with following your arbitrary rules.

I agree with that. Sex is just one aspect of morality, and not the most important one. Love and respect is much more important.

Because you expect God to inflict real punishment on gay people?

No, absolutely not. God will not inflict punishment on gay people. People need to get their heads out of the Bible. It has been abrogated by the Revelation of Baha’u’llah. As such, the OT laws no longer apply to this new age.

You just said, effectively, that you'll violate your own conscience if you can be convinced that it's "God's will." You've abdicated moral responsibility for your positions.

I never said that. I cannot know more than an Omniscient God. That is illogical. I might not “like” the Baha’i Laws regarding homosexuality, many Baha’is don’t, but I do not question an Omniscient God. Since I believe in God and my religion, it is my moral responsibility to follow the Laws of my religion, even if I do not agree with them. I cannot know more than God because that is logically impossible.

But you just said you didn't. And it doesn't violate any law to work to change the law.

Maybe it is okay for a Baha’i to work to change laws as long as we do not affiliate with a political party.

Voting is enough. If through your vote, your religion impacts me, then your religion is my business.

What can I do about that, change my religion because people don’t like it?

So you do have a problem with same-sex marriage, then.

The Baha’i law applies to Baha’is only, but a person becomes a Baha’i by choice. If it is a big enough issue for them, they do not have to become a Baha’i. I have a good friend who is a Bahai and he is married to a Bahai who is a homosexual. They only had sex over 30 years ago in order to have a child. They love each other dearly and have a good marriage. Sex is not an issue.

You agree that it's hypocritical not to support same-sex marriage? Really?

That is not what I agreed with... I agreed that they're going to end up being a hypocrite either way... so they might as well be a kind hypocrite.

As you said “so in a situation where a person has to choose between being uncharitable by opposing same-sex marriage or violating their religion's other teachings to support it, they're going to end up being a hypocrite either way... so they might as well be a kind hypocrite instead of one who throws stumbling blocks in the way of people who are already having a difficult time.”

 

[Trailblazer]

Actually he had a point. When citing an article it is always a good idea to quote a phrase from it, in context of course, and then linking it.

Yes, I know. I should not have cited the article since I was in such a big hurry... Live and learn.

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

Is there any reason to think that God, if God exists, would want 100% of people in the world to believe in Him?

If God wanted everyone to believe in Him, what do you think God would do in order to accomplish that?

Do you think that God can show up on earth? If so, how would God do that?

Do you think that maybe God doesn't believe in us?

 

[ChristineM]

God magic?? I'm not dealing with magic nor beliefs.

You call 'god made everything' whatever you want. Ill call it how it is depicted in the torah and its clone the bible that god poofed the earth and heavens out of nothing by magic.

your quote:How about this for a suggestion, you are making the claims, how about you validating your claims. My Answer: I have pointed you in the direction by which you can Discover the proof for yourself. Is there a need to wait for me? This isn't about Beliefs. I am not here to convince you to Believe. Burden of Proof rests on the person who seeks the knowledge. Do you seek?

So you dont have anything that can validate your claims such as evidence, fair enough, good of you to be so honest.

You make claims, the burden of proof is with you. Without validation of your claims how am i to know you are not making up nonsense just to waist my time. It is a question of credibility and as you are so fond of saying, 'you just dont get it do you?'

There is evidence of God's actions in Everything. On the other hand, God is a Spiritual Being. Are you seeking physical evidence based on the physical laws of this universe? If you seek real evidence, the only way I know of is to start a journey to Discovery for yourself.

Your opinion is noted. What you seem to be saying is, the only evidence you have is pretend and non real.

By now you must know the starting point and process that will guide you there. You must realize this will take you much time. On the other hand, you have it easier than I. No one pointed the direction to be. I had to Discover it all. Perhaps that is the best way with no short cuts.

Starting point of what? Delusion, denial of facts, pretend evidence. Nope ill stick with reality thanks.

your quote;In 10,000 years plus of god worship literally billions of people have failed to provide evidence for any sort of god. My Answer: No one has provided you with physical evidence that you would not create a belief to the contrary to discount. Can billions upon billions of people be 100% wrong about everything? WE are all Spiritual Beings in our true natures. I have direct experience to this. Perhaps these billions of people deep down realize they are spiritual as well and attempt to Discover God. Since, they lack method as I have pointed out to you, they must rely on Beliefs. Mankind's controlling nature brainwashes many into thinking beliefs are all important and are all true.

Billions of people have had faith, none have had evidence. We are physical beings. The last bit seems a bit tin foil hat outside biblical fundimental literalism and actually explains a lot about your thinking

your quote:So if you can provide evidence of god magic you would put an end to faith, decimate atheism and have world religious leaders on your speed dial. My answer: You still don't get it, do you. None of these things matter to me. AS I see it, God places knowledge and truth all around us so it can be Discovered. I merely copy God. For those who are ready, it will be a priceless gift. For those not, does seeing truth ever hurt anyone whether they realize what they are seeing? Of course not. Anyone's journey has never been up to me. On the other hand, someone will see the door.

As you see it? Sure is a convenient way you avoid hard work
Ike education.

You forgot to emphasize the word truth with a capital T or enclose it in quotes (or both) in order to differentiate it from the actual definition of truth.
The quality or state of being true. That which is true or in accordance with fact or reality.

Yes you are dealing with belief, without evidence, in other words.. faith. Just as billions of faithful have believed throughout the history of god worship.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you think that maybe God doesn't believe in us?

I don't know what God believes, but He is probably getting pretty fed up about now, since most people keep turning way from His Messenger.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't know what God believes, but He is probably getting pretty fed up about now, since most people keep turning way from His Messenger.

Sounds like he needs some more effective messengers, then.

BTW: why would an omnipotent god ever have reason to be fed up? If he doesn't like how things are, he has the power to make them however he wants.

Also: weren't you the one who complained about other people claiming to know the mind of God?

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

I don't know what God believes, but He is probably getting pretty fed up about now, since most people keep turning way from His Messenger.

I doubt God is that petty, but I've know followers of his that are.

 

[Bird123]

Religion did not stop anywhere; religion is the continuous unfolding of revelation from God to man... The tide of God’s mercy that comes through the Messengers of God to humanity will never cease from flowing.

God is inerrant so God does not make errors. Followers of religion are human so they can and do make errors. That is what we see happened in all the older religions. We are trying to prevent the same things from happening in the Baha’i Faith. Because we understand what went wrong in the older religions, we can head it off at the pass.

Science will never discover God. Religion will never discover God. Nobody will ever discover God.

Religions were originally revealed by God through Messengers and then people messed them up over time, like people mess up a pristine lake by swimming around in it for a long time.

your quote:God is inerrant so God does not make errors. Followers of religion are human so they can and do make errors. My Answer:This does not add up. Is it not an error to allow others to mess up the religion God is supposed to want people to have? See, you are giving me more stories and beliefs that do not add up.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

your quote:God is inerrant so God does not make errors. Followers of religion are human so they can and do make errors. My Answer:This does not add up. Is it not an error to allow others to mess up the religion God is supposed to want people to have? See, you are giving me more stories and beliefs that do not add up.

The perfection of free will is having it in the first place.

Learning to use it was always going to be difficult.

This is all explained in Gods messages.

Peace be with you and all.

 

[Bird123]

So?


Yep, right after man created gods he created religion in order to tell the sheeples how to worship those gods.


More accurately, science started with disbelief - disbelief in GodDidIt.


Which god? Are any scientists trying to verify that everything was created Last Thursday?


I'll repeat it in case you missed it:
Yep, right after man created gods he created religion in order to tell the sheeples how to worship those gods.


What makes you think I have a spiritual self?

Ask a scientist today, they will tell you it's about the need to know or the need to overcome an adversity. They are not concerned with God. They want to Discover what actually is. I know you do not think this is true, however wanting to Discover what actually is leads to God.

I can not confirm you have a Spiritual Self. You just might be a computer program giving random answers. On the other hand, by asking me what makes you think you have a Spiritual Self tells me that if you are a person you do not know for yourself.

Do you want to explore the possibilities? How about this? Find a dark, quiet comfortable room free of any distractions. Sit quietly and focus inward. Don't rush this. Say to yourself. It's ME. Are you sure you do not know who you are?

How about this? Seek out the very youngest of people. At a very very early age, some can clearly tell the difference from who they really are and their physical bodies. They must be very young since I have found that there is so much sensory input that it isn't long before one is seduced into thinking the physical is all there is. I think if you work on this, you have the ability to Discover who you really are. Who knows. If you open that door, it might lead you to others you can open.

 

[Bird123]

You call 'god made everything' whatever you want. Ill call it how it is depicted in the torah and its clone the bible that god poofed the earth and heavens out of nothing by magic.



So you dont have anything that can validate your claims such as evidence, fair enough, good of you to be so honest.

You make claims, the burden of proof is with you. Without validation of your claims how am i to know you are not making up nonsense just to waist my time. It is a question of credibility and as you are so fond of saying, 'you just dont get it do you?'



Your opinion is noted. What you seem to be saying is, the only evidence you have is pretend and non real.



Starting point of what? Delusion, denial of facts, pretend evidence. Nope ill stick with reality thanks.



Billions of people have had faith, none have had evidence. We are physical beings. The last bit seems a bit tin foil hat outside biblical fundimental literalism and actually explains a lot about your thinking



As you see it? Sure is a convenient way you avoid hard work
Ike education.

You forgot to emphasize the word truth with a capital T or enclose it in quotes (or both) in order to differentiate it from the actual definition of truth.
The quality or state of being true. That which is true or in accordance with fact or reality.

Yes you are dealing with belief, without evidence, in other words.. faith. Just as billions of faithful have believed throughout the history of god worship.

your quote;that god poofed the earth and heavens out of nothing by magic. My Answer: Poof creation is not Reality. You underestimate God's Intelligence. How about considering this: God created the universe to unfold in such a way, mankind , given enough time, will be able to figure it all out. The knowledge waits around us all for those who can Discover it.

your quote;So you dont have anything that can validate your claims such as evidence, fair enough, good of you to be so honest. My Answer: No! No! No! I will not serve it up as religion does trying to convince you to believe. If you want proof, take your journey to Discover. If you do not want proof, do nothing. I'll be just as happy. This isn't about beliefs.

your quote:You make claims, the burden of proof is with you. Without validation of your claims how am i to know you are not making up nonsense just to waist my time. It is a question of credibility and as you are so fond of saying, 'you just dont get it do you?' My Answer: Say you are walking lost in a desert. You have been wandering for days. You come across me in your travels. I tell you that there is a city two miles west after climbing a large hill. You tell me prove it that you do not want me to waste your time. You are right. It is your time to choose. Your Journey has Never been up to me. On the other hand, isn't it easier to Discover something after someone else has already discovered it. Seek what you want. You can Discover the Proof for yourself.

your quote;Your opinion is noted. What you seem to be saying is, the only evidence you have is pretend and non real. My Answer; Surely your view is wider than this.

 

[Bird123]

The perfection of free will is having it in the first place.

Learning to use it was always going to be difficult.

This is all explained in Gods messages.

Peace be with you and all.

Don't you Understand? It doesn't matter what you choose. You will Discover the Best Choices through the Process. On the other hand, making the most intelligence choices one can is always a good thing. It prevents many hard lessons one can choose for themselves.