Questions for Atheists and Agnostics

[Unveiled Artist]

I’ve seen no indication that either of you have any “Real Truth-with-a-capital-T.”

In fact, it seems to me that this argument has gone on as long as it has because neither of you has offered anything of substance to persuade the other one.

Interesting, huh?

I think a more productive debate would be to take out the "you-statements" and address the beliefs presented not the person presenting them. I cant figure how to phrase what the conversation is missing in substance without direct insult. But it is missing something. What examples of substance would you like seen?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I cannot speak for the motives of Bird123, but I am not trying to persuade him of anything.

Regardless of your motives, I'm saying that your posts don't ring true.

What do you think “Real Truth-with-a-capital-T” would look like, if it existed?
Just curious...

I have no idea, but when I see people capitalizing terms like "Truth" or "Messenger," it always reminds me of a line from Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency:

"The door was the way to... to... The Door was The Way. Good. Capital letters were always the best way of dealing with things you didn't have a good answer to.

 

[ukok102nak]

:smoke: it depends upon who's tellin the truth
becaused there is only one thing that is real and
that is
our lord god cannot do all the things
as what everyone thought what they could do in this world
but never our lord god could do such a thing
for as it is written
:read:
that by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie,
we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
Hebrews 6:18 KJVA

 

[Bird123]

To turn away from the Messenger of God is akin to turning away from God because He represents God on earth. The fact that I believe in Bahaullah and who he was does not mean I have a closed mind based upon Beliefs. You are obsessed about Beliefs and that nobody should have any religious beliefs but what you have are your own beliefs. Ecco pointed out to you. You probably had some kind of bad experience in childhood with religion so now you have rejected all religion. You are no different than an atheist who has turned away from religion because of Christianity.

What do you think you have done? Why not just be honest and open, or are you afraid to say? I do not have to believe in you because you are not a Messenger of God, but that does not mean I will not believe what you say. I might, or I might not. I have a rational mind I can use to make that determination and I have the free will to choose what to believe.

God needs a Messenger to receive and record His message which is intended for all of humanity because every one of the 7.44 billion people in the world cannot receive and record all the 15,000 Tablets Baha’u’llah received and recorded. That is why we need a Messenger. At a certain point people need to use their rational minds.

Interact with His children? How do you think God interacts with humans? Moreover, how do you think you can know it is God interacting and not your own imagination? These are important questions that rational people ask and need answers to.

God cannot be accessed directly by humans, period. I do not even a religion to tell me that. I just need a logical mind. God cannot even be accessed by the Messengers, so how do you think that ordinary human beings can access God?

God is the Inaccessible, the Most High.

“How wondrous is the unity of the Living, the Ever-Abiding God—a unity which is exalted above all limitations, that transcendeth the comprehension of all created things! He hath, from everlasting, dwelt in His inaccessible habitation of holiness and glory, and will unto everlasting continue to be enthroned upon the heights of His independent sovereignty and grandeur. How lofty hath been His incorruptible Essence, how completely independent of the knowledge of all created things, and how immensely exalted will it remain above the praise of all the inhabitants of the heavens and the earth!” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 261-262​

And you are accessing God? Please explain exactly how you are accessing an inaccessible God.

You follow yourself which is Mankind. You have no access to God. Nobody has any access to God, except through His Messengers.

God has the Real Truth. Where do you think you are getting the Real Truth? Answer the question.

You keep saying that Real Discovery takes work, but you cannot explain how you are discovering anything. You cannot Discover God by looking at human actions. That is not God.

Religion is mankind's attempt to Understand God. I have found no holy book nor religion that really Understands God. On the other hand, each do carry pieces of the puzzle. How can I argue the part of religions that teach Unconditional Love? I can't.

As for my childhood, it wasn't until I became an adult did I start to question. As a child, I was a blind believer as you. When one discovers so many things that do not add up, one must search for the Real Answers.

As far as Believing in me or not. that has never been an issue. I am not a religion that requires followers. What I have given you is the gift of Real Truth. Feel free to do as you please. There will be some people who will be ready for their next step.

God and God's system has never depended on messengers. You are mistaken if you think God values any one person over another. You should not either.

God can be accessed by anyone. On the other hand, For most, the experience would end up being confusing. God is very High Intelligence. On top of that most work harder at telling rather than listening. Of course, if one was prepared, I think most would get something out of it.

How can one access God? I think the first step is to learn more about God, God's system, and how and why God does things. Looks like we have come full circle back to a journey to Discovery.

In this time-based causal universe God's actions can be seen. Study God and Discover for yourself. Open enough Doors and you will find God. When you do, God will never be a mere Belief again. Never forget while on your journey Everything about God will add up completely. If it doesn't, you are walking away from God.

Stop thinking you are going to find God and God will give you all the answers. Just like what God is doing with this world. Discover the answers first. Wisdom is gained on the path to Discover any knowledge. There are no short cuts. God isn't going to do it for you. On the other hand, if you do really well and are ready, God might bless you with a visit.

 

[Bird123]

I never said that we could learn everything in this lifetime. We have all of eternity to learn.

Does it matter that people make bad choices and hurt themselves and other people when some of this can be avoided by having some guidelines? Do you think the world is just like a child’s playground where it is okay for evil people to hurt good people just so they can learn something? That sounds awfully selfish to me.

The bad news is that some people do not learn by experience. That is self-evident.

Widen that narrow view. There is so much more going on beyond the surface.

People can be very stubborn and set in their ways. Take you for example. You cling so hard on those beliefs that you leave little room for anything to get in.

All people do change, on the other hand, they might not change as fast as you want them to. Even with baby steps, change does come in time. When one truly understands all sides, intelligence will make the best choices.

Yes, look at this world, God's creation. How does it all add up? How could it really be a Masterpiece? How does it all really work? Ignore what religion has taught you while you do this. Start New! What can you Discover for yourself?

 

[Bird123]

God is the Ruler of all things. That is just who God is. Everyone knows that but you.

God has all the Power and Control but God does not control people. God gave us free will so we could make our own decisions

God did not give anyone any views. People get their own views. That is why we have a mind and free will.

I have no interest in controlling anybody.

How did God point that out to you? Did God communicate to you? I guess you must think you are a Prophet.

The quotes from Baha’u’llah tell me that it is coming from God. Sorry you cannot see that.

God is the Ruler of all things. That is God101 stuff. The fact that you know that means there is no way you ever heard from God and you know nothing about who God is. You have made God in your own image because you want God to be a certain way. You do not want a God that might have any power over you, but any God that does not have power over you is an imaginary God. Everyone knows that but you.

God uses Messengers who reveal Holy Books. That is God101 stuff. The fact that you know that means there is no way you ever heard from God.

The fact that someone believes in a Holy Book in no way precludes them Living their Lessons. They are still living and learning from experience just like you are. You are completely illogical if you think that a Holy Book prevents people from learning.

Your quote:I guess you must think you are a Prophet. My Answer: I am You.

Your quote:God is the Ruler of all things. That is just who God is. Everyone knows that but you. My Answer: Mankind is Big on Ruling others. Everybody wants to Rule the world is mankind's greatest problem. God is at a much Higher Level. When one reaches that Higher Level, does one really need to be Ruled? Think about that? You just must let go of those petty things you have been taught to value.

You are right. Everyone will Live their Lessons regardless of their Beliefs or what others convince you to do.

 

[Bird123]

I’ve seen no indication that either of you have any “Real Truth-with-a-capital-T.”

In fact, it seems to me that this argument has gone on as long as it has because neither of you has offered anything of substance to persuade the other one.

I am not here to persuade. I will reply to a comment. People who search for Real Truth must Discover it for themselves rather than rely on accepting Beliefs or what anyone else says.

 

[lukethethird]

I am not here to persuade. I will reply to a comment. People who search for Real Truth must Discover it for themselves rather than rely on accepting Beliefs or what anyone else says.

Then why am I here reading what anyone else says?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I am not here to persuade.

All your attempts to persuade notwithstanding.

 

[Bird123]

I dont mean to be rude, kinda, or ironic but this is the same exact thing many non-believers in abrahamic gods get about our own beliefs. Its weird seeing the defense come from another belief. I know Im off but not many believers get a boomerang affect on how their religions and beliefs affect others.

Interesting.

Sharing your view is important. I never consider the free speech of anyone rude. Interaction is key to learning. If there is Drama, it is not a thing to be avoided. I have found more is learned around Drama that at any other time.

Atheists and religious people are at odds so many times. On the other hand, both have things the others need to learn. Religious people are taught that Beliefs are everything and yet Beliefs are not always true. One should never ever settle for mere Beliefs. One should always strive to Discover the Real Truth for themselves.

Atheists can learn from religious people that there is a Spiritual side. There is much more that exists beyond the sensory input this physical world supplies. Some might even remember this from a small child, however for so many, the focus is on just what exists right in front of them at the moment.

I realize many people have been hurt by religion and religion's goal to gain followers. On the other hand, simply because one is hurt or one can not agree with religion's teachings does not mean God does not exist. I have found no religion that really Understands God.

I think if one searches for the Real Truth, one must be open to all possibilities. The Real Truth will come to the surface in time if one has the will and persists on the journey to Discover.

Everything we do returns in time to teach us what our choices really mean. Just as you say, the view changes when it looks back at ourselves.

 

[Bird123]

Then why am I here reading what anyone else says?

Entertainment??

 

[Trailblazer]

Regardless of your motives, I'm saying that your posts don't ring true.

I understand that they do not ring true to you but do you understand that is not makes them true? God’s Truth just is, and it has nothing to do with what we believe it is.

We humans do not create Truth, we just discover it or fail to do so, but truth is everywhere, not just in the Revelation of Baha’u’llah. The Revelation of Baha’u’llah is simply the most “direct source” of God’s Truth for this age in history. Many other truths spring forth from that Truth.

When another Messenger appears, that Messenger will reveal more of God’s Truth, as much as humanity needs and is able to understand at that time. This process of revelation from God to man will continue as long as mankind exists.

I have no idea, but when I see people capitalizing terms like "Truth" or "Messenger," it always reminds me of a line from Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency:

"The door was the way to... to... The Door was The Way. Good. Capital letters were always the best way of dealing with things you didn't have a good answer to.

The capital T just stands for what “I consider” Truth from God, as opposed to truth from man.

 

[Trailblazer]

Religion is mankind's attempt to Understand God.

That is not what religion is. Religion comes from God, not from mankind. Baha’u’llah explains the nature of religion:

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81​

I have found no holy book nor religion that really Understands God.

I have found that every holy book Understands God. You understand nothing about God because the only way to understand God is from what is revealed in the scriptures.

On the other hand, each do carry pieces of the puzzle. How can I argue the part of religions that teach Unconditional Love? I can't.

But you argue everything else you do not agree with, as if you could ever know as much as a Messenger of God who reveals scriptures. God loves us unconditionally but there is a lot more to God than that.

As for my childhood, it wasn't until I became an adult did I start to question. As a child, I was a blind believer as you.

Please do not speak for me. I am not a blind believer. I researched my religion before I joined it and I continue to research it every day, even after 48 years. I do not believe in it blindly.

When one discovers so many things that do not add up, one must search for the Real Answers.

You are not going to get any Real Answers about God anywhere except from religion. Anything else you conjure up is just an imaginary god because there is no way to know anything about God except from Messengers of God.

As far as Believing in me or not. that has never been an issue. I am not a religion that requires followers. What I have given you is the gift of Real Truth.

What Truth? Where did you get Real Truth, from yourself?

Feel free to do as you please. There will be some people who will be ready for their next step.

And follow you?

God and God's system has never depended on messengers. You are mistaken if you think God values any one person over another. You should not either.

History refutes everything you say. God and God’s system has always depended on Messengers. The world would have completely perished long ago if God had not continually sent Messengers.

You do not know anything about God because there is no way to know anything about God without a Messenger of God and what he reveals. God loves all men but God does not consider all men equal. That would be totally unjust.

“Let no one imagine that by Our assertion that all created things are the signs of the revelation of God is meant that—God forbid—all men, be they good or evil, pious or infidel, are equal in the sight of God.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 187​

God can be accessed by anyone.

God cannot be accessed by anyone at all, not even the Messengers. God contacts them and reveals a message, but they cannot access God, how much less could any ordinary human being ever access God. God is completely inaccessible.

“How wondrous is the unity of the Living, the Ever-Abiding God—a unity which is exalted above all limitations, that transcendeth the comprehension of all created things! He hath, from everlasting, dwelt in His inaccessible habitation of holiness and glory, and will unto everlasting continue to be enthroned upon the heights of His independent sovereignty and grandeur. How lofty hath been His incorruptible Essence, how completely independent of the knowledge of all created things, and how immensely exalted will it remain above the praise of all the inhabitants of the heavens and the earth!” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 261-262​

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I feel as long as we are looking for our own Real Truth and no one elses, we are fine. The observation was based on what I see online. A part from that, shrugs. I live among christians; so, I rarely hear anything to nothing about any other religion and worldview but christ.

Sharing your view is important. I never consider the free speech of anyone rude. Interaction is key to learning. If there is Drama, it is not a thing to be avoided. I have found more is learned around Drama that at any other time.

Free speech can be rude when used to hurt others. It is also rude when you coerce and also when you use it to indoctrinate in an unhealthy way. Americans take for granted the use of free speech. Free speech isnt granted on RF no more than other parts of real life. Its an illusion, really; and, we learn when we get repremended rather than taught.

But I dont think many people who view things as you do (though you are calm aout it) know how much internal harm you all do to people. Kinda like someone in an abusive relationship but because of the nature of it, the abuser doesnt see himself doing wrong and the victim doesnt think he needs help because thats all the environment he knows. Thank god (pun intended) America isnt a religious-government runed country; but still...states got their thing giong.

I realize many people have been hurt by religion and religion's goal to gain followers. On the other hand, simply because one is hurt or one can not agree with religion's teachings does not mean God does not exist. I have found no religion that really Understands God.

That is your belief, though not a fact. Being hurt (abused, for example), isnt something to throw under the rug and say they hurt, but I know I still love them hit-hit-hit. Its not all intentional, for some, but to be ignorant of it when its told to you (all) point blank is a totally different story.

I think like many atheist, many believers have an unhealthy definition of religion. Probably why the new age and spiritual and not religous thing came out. The more I hear people step away from religion, the more new age they seem.

Atheists can learn from religious people that there is a Spiritual side. There is much more that exists beyond the sensory input this physical world supplies. Some might even remember this from a small child, however for so many, the focus is on just what exists right in front of them at the moment.

Not all atheist are physical-side only. We just dont believe in deities. Everyone has their own definitions. For me, its just ignorance. I knew no diety, no god, or anything like that so I dont experience supernatural stuff like that.

Got to be open to different individual experiences. Believers arent under one umbrella (though we tend to think thatway) no more thana theists (though we tend to think that way) Confirmation bias

I just think many RF atheist and some non-believers have that view to an extent but I wouldnt blanked them all for atheists as a whole.

I think if one searches for the Real Truth, one must be open to all possibilities. The Real Truth will come to the surface in time if one has the will and persists on the journey to Discover.

There are millions of Real Truths. Many people are still looking for their own, some of us have found it, some of us are living it as we speak. More than one with no common denominator.

Everything we do returns in time to teach us what our choices really mean. Just as you say, the view change

Pretty much. Each lesson we learn brings us to our own Real Truth.

But I usually see opposition between believers and non-believers (not really the other god-religions but more the anti-religious and some non-religious here). I never saw it among two believers; so, this is a first. It also confirmed what I already know about abrahamic god-beliefs.

The honest need for all people to understand and believe the Real Truth regardles if its listing quote by quote or the way one speaks is very distinct that many other faiths dont have. Abrahamics stand pretty much solo on that.

You dont have to reply to everything. Just sayin'

 

[Trailblazer]

Widen that narrow view. There is so much more going on beyond the surface.

People can be very stubborn and set in their ways. Take you for example. You cling so hard on those beliefs that you leave little room for anything to get in.

I can speak for myself. I do not have a narrow view just because I have a religion. You are completely biased against religion. Biased people cannot see clearly. They have made up their mind and there is no room to let anything in that could be of value.

All you have is beliefs. I also have beliefs, but the difference is that my beliefs come from a real religion and yours are made up by you. So your religion is a man-made religion as opposed to a religion of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

My quote: I guess you must think you are a Prophet.

Your Answer: I am You.

No, you are not me. You are you and I am me.

My quote: God is the Ruler of all things. That is just who God is. Everyone knows that but you.

Your Answer: Mankind is Big on Ruling others. Everybody wants to Rule the world is mankind's greatest problem. God is at a much Higher Level. When one reaches that Higher Level, does one really need to be Ruled? Think about that? You just must let go of those petty things you have been taught to value.

God does not need to be Ruled. God cannot be Ruled by mankind because God is the Ruler of all things.

 

[lukethethird]

No, you are not me. You are you and I am me.

God does not need to be Ruled. God cannot be Ruled by mankind because God is the Ruler of all things.

When did we decide that God is the Ruler of all things?

 

[Trailblazer]

When did we decide that God is the Ruler of all things?

I did not decide that. I believe that because my religion teaches that. Here is some context which explains why God is a Ruler of all things...

“Sanctified be the Lord of all mankind, at the mention of Whose name all the atoms of the earth have been made to vibrate, and the Tongue of Grandeur hath been moved to disclose that which had been wrapt in His knowledge and lay concealed within the treasury of His might. He, verily, through the potency of His name, the Mighty, the All-Powerful, the Most High, is the ruler of all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 16-17

“All praise to the unity of God, and all honor to Him, the sovereign Lord, the incomparable and all-glorious Ruler of the universe, Who, out of utter nothingness, hath created the reality of all things, Who, from naught, hath brought into being the most refined and subtle elements of His creation, and Who, rescuing His creatures from the abasement of remoteness and the perils of ultimate extinction, hath received them into His kingdom of incorruptible glory.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 64-65​

“All praise to the unity of God, and all honor to Him, the sovereign Lord, the incomparable and all-glorious Ruler of the universe, Who, out of utter nothingness, hath created the reality of all things, Who, from naught, hath brought into being the most refined and subtle elements of His creation, and Who, rescuing His creatures from the abasement of remoteness and the perils of ultimate extinction, hath received them into His kingdom of incorruptible glory. Nothing short of His all-encompassing grace, His all-pervading mercy, could have possibly achieved it. How could it, otherwise, have been possible for sheer nothingness to have acquired by itself the worthiness and capacity to emerge from its state of non-existence into the realm of being?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 64-65​

 

[lukethethird]

I did not decide that. I believe that because my religion teaches that. Here is some context which explains why God is a Ruler of all things...

“Sanctified be the Lord of all mankind, at the mention of Whose name all the atoms of the earth have been made to vibrate, and the Tongue of Grandeur hath been moved to disclose that which had been wrapt in His knowledge and lay concealed within the treasury of His might. He, verily, through the potency of His name, the Mighty, the All-Powerful, the Most High, is the ruler of all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 16-17

“All praise to the unity of God, and all honor to Him, the sovereign Lord, the incomparable and all-glorious Ruler of the universe, Who, out of utter nothingness, hath created the reality of all things, Who, from naught, hath brought into being the most refined and subtle elements of His creation, and Who, rescuing His creatures from the abasement of remoteness and the perils of ultimate extinction, hath received them into His kingdom of incorruptible glory.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 64-65​

“All praise to the unity of God, and all honor to Him, the sovereign Lord, the incomparable and all-glorious Ruler of the universe, Who, out of utter nothingness, hath created the reality of all things, Who, from naught, hath brought into being the most refined and subtle elements of His creation, and Who, rescuing His creatures from the abasement of remoteness and the perils of ultimate extinction, hath received them into His kingdom of incorruptible glory. Nothing short of His all-encompassing grace, His all-pervading mercy, could have possibly achieved it. How could it, otherwise, have been possible for sheer nothingness to have acquired by itself the worthiness and capacity to emerge from its state of non-existence into the realm of being?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 64-65​

You decided that these writings are valid.

 

[Trailblazer]

You decided that these writings are valid.

Yes I did.