Questions for Atheists and Agnostics

[Trailblazer]

I did say I wasn't going to respond to any of your posts in this thread. However, the above is just utter, ignorant, BS for many reasons.

Please explain why.
I am all ears.

 

[Bird123]

What's with the red herring? Why can't you respond to what ecco said?

ecco said: "Talk about wearing blinders. The real truth is that gods are the creation of man's imaginings. You probably believe that to be be true for all gods except the one you "discovered". You don't see that you are no different from all the people who believe in any god.

Just look at the back and forth posts between you and another poster.
You're both asserting your beliefs are right and the other's are wrong.
You're both exactly the same."

Why doesn't ecco exist? Because he does not agree with your the god you think you have discovered, the god for which you have no evidence?

Do you not understand my reply? If one has contact with someone, they exist beyond beliefs. If I say God does not exist, then I can equally say no one here exists, however I can't do that because reality is where I am going to exist.

 

[Bird123]

You are so lost. You are lost because you think you know something about God that you do not know. By contrast, atheists are not lost because at least they know that they do not know anything about God. For atheists there is a chance that they can come to know God if they want to and if they have an open mind. By contrast, your arrogance stands in the way of you ever knowing the One True God. You think all you need is yourself in order to know God. Nothing could be further from the truth because it is the ego self that stands in between us and God. You know nothing about God because there is no way to know anything about God without a revealed religion. That is the Reality. What you are living is a Fantasy.

You have created your own Belief system based upon your own ego. How sad.

God communicates only through Messengers. Religious scriptures are the Truth from God. They are the ONLY Truth from God. There is nothing you can ever do to change that. Nothing you have is Truth, it is an illusion.

Not ready for what? Not ready to follow your man-made religion? That is what you have done, set up a religion. Unfortunately, it is a false religion. Real religions have real Messengers with real messages. You have no message.

How do I know you are not a prophet of God? Jesus explained how we know who is a prophet of God. Do you have any fruits?
Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: fruit Meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.​

You do not have a clue what God wants because the ONLY way to know that is through what the Messengers of God reveal.

First and foremost, God wants us to recognize Baha’u’llah and secondly God wants us to follow His ordinances.

You cannot find God without religion. All you have found is a figment of your imagination and you call it God. Your problem is that you have to have complete control and if you follow a religion you lose that control. This is psych 101 stuff.

I have no hate. To say the word is a mess is the truth. It is a mess because most people have turned away from Baha’u’llah and the remedy He brought to clean up the mess humanity has made.
If you cannot even see what a mess the world is in you have your head in the sand.

“The Great Being saith: O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity. This is the straight Path, the fixed and immovable foundation. Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure. Our hope is that the world’s religious leaders and the rulers thereof will unitedly arise for the reformation of this age and the rehabilitation of its fortunes. Let them, after meditating on its needs, take counsel together and, through anxious and full deliberation, administer to a diseased and sorely-afflicted world the remedy it requireth…. It is incumbent upon them who are in authority to exercise moderation in all things. Whatsoever passeth beyond the limits of moderation will cease to exert a beneficial influence. Consider for instance such things as liberty, civilization and the like. However much men of understanding may favorably regard them, they will, if carried to excess, exercise a pernicious influence upon men…. Please God, the peoples of the world may be led, as the result of the high endeavors exerted by their rulers and the wise and learned amongst men, to recognize their best interests. How long will humanity persist in its waywardness? How long will injustice continue? How long is chaos and confusion to reign amongst men? How long will discord agitate the face of society?… The winds of despair are, alas, blowing from every direction, and the strife that divideth and afflicteth the human race is daily increasing. The signs of impending convulsions and chaos can now be discerned, inasmuch as the prevailing order appeareth to be lamentably defective. I beseech God, exalted be His glory, that He may graciously awaken the peoples of the earth, may grant that the end of their conduct may be profitable unto them, and aid them to accomplish that which beseemeth their station.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 215-217
​

Who are you to speak for me? How dare you say I have hate? I have no hate. I just see the Reality all around me. I love humanity and I want to serve it. That is why I am a Baha’i. The world might have been a Masterpiece when it was created but it has been practically destroyed by the selfish desires of humanity.

“A tempest, unprecedented in its violence, unpredictable in its course, catastrophic in its immediate effects, unimaginably glorious in its ultimate consequences, is at present sweeping the face of the earth. Its driving power is remorselessly gaining in range and momentum. Its cleansing force, however much undetected, is increasing with every passing day. Humanity, gripped in the clutches of its devastating power, is smitten by the evidences of its resistless fury. It can neither perceive its origin, nor probe its significance, nor discern its outcome. Bewildered, agonized and helpless, it watches this great and mighty wind of God invading the remotest and fairest regions of the earth, rocking its foundations, deranging its equilibrium, sundering its nations, disrupting the homes of its peoples, wasting its cities, driving into exile its kings, pulling down its bulwarks, uprooting its institutions, dimming its light, and harrowing up the souls of its inhabitants.” The Promised Day Is Come, p. 3​

Nobody really understands what is happening in the world or why it is happening except the Baha’is, but at least most people understand that there are problems in the world and many people actually care and are trying to do something about these problems. By contrast, you are living in a fantasy that all is well. But that way you do not have to do anything about what is wrong in the world.

“Dear friends! The powerful operations of this titanic upheaval are comprehensible to none except such as have recognized the claims of both Bahá’u’lláh and the Báb. Their followers know full well whence it comes, and what it will ultimately lead to. Though ignorant of how far it will reach, they clearly recognize its genesis, are aware of its direction, acknowledge its necessity, observe confidently its mysterious processes, ardently pray for the mitigation of its severity, intelligently labor to assuage its fury, and anticipate, with undimmed vision, the consummation of the fears and the hopes it must necessarily engender.” The Promised Day Is Come, p. 4​

I am sorry True Reality does not conform to your Belief system. In time, you will Discover Reality is better than the stories you live with today.

Thanks for confirming with me that your messengers do not come from God. How do I know this? They do not have a clue what this world is all about nor what God is doing with this world. You can choose to look at others, value a blame against them and label them evil, however isn't that just a form of hate? I think so.

In spite of what you have been taught or what you think, the world is getting Better. You say people are moving away from each other but the opposite is true. The Internet alone connects people and cultures together with the Interaction that is crucial to God's system. As communications get better so will interaction.

As intelligence advances it will make religions obsolete simply because people with greater knowledge and intelligence will be greater at Math. Why is Math important? Everything about God and God's system adds up completely and that is not just emotionally as religions are teaching people to value.

This has nothing to do with Ego. I am not making a religion. I am not gathering followers. I am not trying to control others.Life is about living. It is important people choose for themselves and walk their own path. I simply copy God and place a bit of Real Truth in the world. No one's journey is up to me. God grants everyone total freedom of choice. I would not want it any other way.

The reason I say you are not ready is because you have walled yourself away from Truth in favor of a box of Beliefs. As I see it, you are not ready to see anything other than your box of Beliefs. Saying these things are with no intention of hurting you. Math, they simply exist.

 

[Bird123]

So you see how humans interact in God’s Creation. That does not tell you anything about God. It tells you something about humans.

You did not answer my question. How will it work for everyone to decide for themselves what is right and wrong, what is moral and immoral?

It is not God’s system for everyone to choose for themselves. That is man’s system. God’s system has Laws. Sorry you don’t like the constraints but that is the way it has always been... God sets the standards for our moral behavior through the Messengers.

You can always tell that beliefs are coming from mankind when someone thinks they know more than the revealed Word of God.

God only says anything through the Messenger and that is God.

Can you draw a black and white line between good and evil? Where is that line? Does your holy book define that line 100%. What about exceptions?

In God's system, there is no need to define that line simply because each will discover what the best choices are and after acquiring knowledge of all sides, intelligence will make the best choices. Who cares where the line is? It doesn't really matter. You will make the Best choice.

 

[Bird123]

It is God ruling on the Throne, not mankind.
Those who choose not to be ruled will not enter the court of God's presence.
Note the word Inaccessible. That is why God sends Messengers, to make God Accessible.

“Give ear, O My servant, unto that which is being sent down unto thee from the Throne of thy Lord, the Inaccessible, the Most Great. There is none other God but Him. He hath called into being His creatures, that they may know Him, Who is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful. Unto the cities of all nations He hath sent His Messengers, Whom He hath commissioned to announce unto men tidings of the Paradise of His good pleasure, and to draw them nigh unto the Haven of abiding security, the Seat of eternal holiness and transcendent glory.

Some were guided by the Light of God, gained admittance into the court of His presence, and quaffed, from the hand of resignation, the waters of everlasting life, and were accounted of them that have truly recognized and believed in Him. Others rebelled against Him, and rejected the signs of God, the Most Powerful, the Almighty, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 144-145​

How little your messenger and you really understand God. You have made God in mankind's image. God is at a much much Higher Level. You have no concept.

God is Unconditional Love. God is not a RULER. God is a TEACHER!!!!!!

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you not understand my reply? If one has contact with someone, they exist beyond beliefs. If I say God does not exist, then I can equally say no one here exists, however I can't do that because reality is where I am going to exist.

Is this your roundabout way of saying that you have been in contact with God?
If that is what you are saying, how do you know that?
Unless you can prove it, it is not a fact, it is a belief.
It is real to you because you believe it, but that does not mean it really happened.
Anyone can imagine that they were in contact with God. That does not make it true.

 

[Trailblazer]

I am sorry True Reality does not conform to your Belief system. In time, you will Discover Reality is better than the stories you live with today.

I am sorry. Only God knows the True Reality, and the only way to know anything about God is through what the Messengers of God reveal which becomes a religion. You call that a box of Beliefs and it is the Word of God. What you have is a box of Beliefs and it does not come from God. It is the word of one man and you call it True Reality. This is so arrogant. You try to gloss over the arrogance by saying that we can all Discover True Reality just like you did; but notice, this is all about YOU and what you think you know, what you think you have Discovered. YOU have the solution for everything. That is why it is arrogant. The sad thing is that you are too arrogant to even know that you are arrogant.

Thanks for confirming with me that your messengers do not come from God. How do I know this? They do not have a clue what this world is all about nor what God is doing with this world. You can choose to look at others, value a blame against them and label them evil, however isn't that just a form of hate? I think so.

How do you think you know what this world is all about or what God is doing with this world? What you see in this world are not the actions of God, they are the actions of humans. God does not control human behavior because we have free will. IF God is doing anything it is not discernible by humans.

The Messengers of God are the only ones who know what this world is all about because they received Knowledge from God. You don’t have any knowledge from God so you do not know anything unless you read what they revealed. It is really that simple.

Why is it that you cannot admit that someone knows more than you do? To say that you know more than all the revealed religions in the world is very arrogant. I am sorry you cannot see this.

In spite of what you have been taught or what you think, the world is getting Better. You say people are moving away from each other but the opposite is true. The Internet alone connects people and cultures together with the Interaction that is crucial to God's system. As communications get better so will interaction.

I agree, the world is getting better, but it is getting better because of Baha’u’llah and the message He brought.

As intelligence advances it will make religions obsolete simply because people with greater knowledge and intelligence will be greater at Math. Why is Math important? Everything about God and God's system adds up completely and that is not just emotionally as religions are teaching people to value.

Nobody has greater intelligence than the Messengers of God because they have innate intelligence and they have Knowledge from God.

You do not know anything about God or God’s System because the only way to know that is from God reveals through Messengers who establish religions. It has been that way since the dawn of human history and it will never change. Religions will never become obsolete. They are the only reason the world still exists at all.

This has nothing to do with Ego. I am not making a religion. I am not gathering followers. I am not trying to control others. Life is about living. It is important people choose for themselves and walk their own path.

You are trying to gather followers every time you tell people that you have Discovered “the way.”

I simply copy God and place a bit of Real Truth in the world. No one's journey is up to me. God grants everyone total freedom of choice. I would not want it any other way.

You do not copy God because you have no way to know what God is doing. You just imagine you know. You have no way to know Real Truth because what we can know of the Real Truth comes from God through His Messengers and you reject that in favor of your own truth. When you reject the Messenger you are rejecting God’s Love and Mercy. That is your choice because you have free will.

You think you understand the workings of God. Even the Messengers do not understand the workings of God. They just get a message from God and reveal God’s attributes and God’s will in every age.

“The conceptions of the devoutest of mystics, the attainments of the most accomplished amongst men, the highest praise which human tongue or pen can render are all the product of man’s finite mind and are conditioned by its limitations. Ten thousand Prophets, each a Moses, are thunderstruck upon the Sinai of their search at His forbidding voice, “Thou shalt never behold Me!”; whilst a myriad Messengers, each as great as Jesus, stand dismayed upon their heavenly thrones by the interdiction, “Mine Essence thou shalt never apprehend!” From time immemorial He hath been veiled in the ineffable sanctity of His exalted Self, and will everlastingly continue to be wrapt in the impenetrable mystery of His unknowable Essence. Every attempt to attain to an understanding of His inaccessible Reality hath ended in complete bewilderment, and every effort to approach His exalted Self and envisage His Essence hath resulted in hopelessness and failure.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 62-63​

The reason I say you are not ready is because you have walled yourself away from Truth in favor of a box of Beliefs. As I see it, you are not ready to see anything other than your box of Beliefs. Saying these things are with no intention of hurting you. Math, they simply exist.

You are wrong. Beliefs come from God through Messengers of God. To say that is a box of Beliefs is to shun and reject God. That is exactly what you are doing whenever you reject the Messenger of God; you are rejecting God in favor of self.

"Give ear, O My servant, unto that which is being sent down unto thee from the Throne of thy Lord, the Inaccessible, the Most Great. There is none other God but Him. He hath called into being His creatures, that they may know Him, Who is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful. Unto the cities of all nations He hath sent His Messengers, Whom He hath commissioned to announce unto men tidings of the Paradise of His good pleasure, and to draw them nigh unto the Haven of abiding security, the Seat of eternal holiness and transcendent glory.

Some were guided by the Light of God, gained admittance into the court of His presence, and quaffed, from the hand of resignation, the waters of everlasting life, and were accounted of them that have truly recognized and believed in Him. Others rebelled against Him, and rejected the signs of God, the Most Powerful, the Almighty, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 144-145​

 

[Trailblazer]

Can you draw a black and white line between good and evil? Where is that line? Does your holy book define that line 100%. What about exceptions?

Good and evil is defined in the holy books, but there are degrees of good and degrees of evil and there are always exceptions. Some things are black and white, such as that murder is evil, but not all is that clear cut.

In God's system, there is no need to define that line simply because each will discover what the best choices are and after acquiring knowledge of all sides, intelligence will make the best choices. Who cares where the line is? It doesn't really matter. You will make the Best choice.

That is not God’s system, it is human’s system. In God’s System people follow a revealed religion which has guidelines, teachings and laws, so they can avoid many pitfalls.

If what you are saying is true, everyone would learn by experience and they would never repeat the same mistakes again. If what you are saying is true, criminals would never reoffend but we know that in Reality most criminals re-offend.

Where do you get the idea that everyone will make the Best choice? Does it look like everyone is making the Best choice?

 

[Trailblazer]

How little your messenger and you really understand God. You have made God in mankind's image. God is at a much much Higher Level. You have no concept.

God is Unconditional Love. God is not a RULER. God is a TEACHER!!!!!!

You understand nothing about God. You have made God in your own image.

God is not a teacher. God teaches through the Messenger who is the teacher. You have a false concept of God because you ignore the teacher.

God is Love, and God is also a Ruler. God rules the entire Universe.

“Sanctified be the Lord of all mankind, at the mention of Whose name all the atoms of the earth have been made to vibrate, and the Tongue of Grandeur hath been moved to disclose that which had been wrapt in His knowledge and lay concealed within the treasury of His might. He, verily, through the potency of His name, the Mighty, the All-Powerful, the Most High, is the ruler of all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 16-17​

“All praise to the unity of God, and all honor to Him, the sovereign Lord, the incomparable and all-glorious Ruler of the universe, Who, out of utter nothingness, hath created the reality of all things, Who, from naught, hath brought into being the most refined and subtle elements of His creation, and Who, rescuing His creatures from the abasement of remoteness and the perils of ultimate extinction, hath received them into His kingdom of incorruptible glory. Nothing short of His all-encompassing grace, His all-pervading mercy, could have possibly achieved it. How could it, otherwise, have been possible for sheer nothingness to have acquired by itself the worthiness and capacity to emerge from its state of non-existence into the realm of being?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 64-65​

 

[Bird123]

Is this your roundabout way of saying that you have been in contact with God?
If that is what you are saying, how do you know that?
Unless you can prove it, it is not a fact, it is a belief.
It is real to you because you believe it, but that does not mean it really happened.
Anyone can imagine that they were in contact with God. That does not make it true.

God has ways far beyond my or mankind's capabilities.

It is also not a belief that you exist. You want what I say to not be true so badly that you close your mind to the possibilities for yourself.

 

[Bird123]

I am sorry. Only God knows the True Reality, and the only way to know anything about God is through what the Messengers of God reveal which becomes a religion. You call that a box of Beliefs and it is the Word of God. What you have is a box of Beliefs and it does not come from God. It is the word of one man and you call it True Reality. This is so arrogant. You try to gloss over the arrogance by saying that we can all Discover True Reality just like you did; but notice, this is all about YOU and what you think you know, what you think you have Discovered. YOU have the solution for everything. That is why it is arrogant. The sad thing is that you are too arrogant to even know that you are arrogant.

How do you think you know what this world is all about or what God is doing with this world? What you see in this world are not the actions of God, they are the actions of humans. God does not control human behavior because we have free will. IF God is doing anything it is not discernible by humans.

The Messengers of God are the only ones who know what this world is all about because they received Knowledge from God. You don’t have any knowledge from God so you do not know anything unless you read what they revealed. It is really that simple.

Why is it that you cannot admit that someone knows more than you do? To say that you know more than all the revealed religions in the world is very arrogant. I am sorry you cannot see this.

I agree, the world is getting better, but it is getting better because of Baha’u’llah and the message He brought.

Nobody has greater intelligence than the Messengers of God because they have innate intelligence and they have Knowledge from God.

You do not know anything about God or God’s System because the only way to know that is from God reveals through Messengers who establish religions. It has been that way since the dawn of human history and it will never change. Religions will never become obsolete. They are the only reason the world still exists at all.

You are trying to gather followers every time you tell people that you have Discovered “the way.”

You do not copy God because you have no way to know what God is doing. You just imagine you know. You have no way to know Real Truth because what we can know of the Real Truth comes from God through His Messengers and you reject that in favor of your own truth. When you reject the Messenger you are rejecting God’s Love and Mercy. That is your choice because you have free will.

You think you understand the workings of God. Even the Messengers do not understand the workings of God. They just get a message from God and reveal God’s attributes and God’s will in every age.

“The conceptions of the devoutest of mystics, the attainments of the most accomplished amongst men, the highest praise which human tongue or pen can render are all the product of man’s finite mind and are conditioned by its limitations. Ten thousand Prophets, each a Moses, are thunderstruck upon the Sinai of their search at His forbidding voice, “Thou shalt never behold Me!”; whilst a myriad Messengers, each as great as Jesus, stand dismayed upon their heavenly thrones by the interdiction, “Mine Essence thou shalt never apprehend!” From time immemorial He hath been veiled in the ineffable sanctity of His exalted Self, and will everlastingly continue to be wrapt in the impenetrable mystery of His unknowable Essence. Every attempt to attain to an understanding of His inaccessible Reality hath ended in complete bewilderment, and every effort to approach His exalted Self and envisage His Essence hath resulted in hopelessness and failure.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 62-63​

You are wrong. Beliefs come from God through Messengers of God. To say that is a box of Beliefs is to shun and reject God. That is exactly what you are doing whenever you reject the Messenger of God; you are rejecting God in favor of self.

"Give ear, O My servant, unto that which is being sent down unto thee from the Throne of thy Lord, the Inaccessible, the Most Great. There is none other God but Him. He hath called into being His creatures, that they may know Him, Who is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful. Unto the cities of all nations He hath sent His Messengers, Whom He hath commissioned to announce unto men tidings of the Paradise of His good pleasure, and to draw them nigh unto the Haven of abiding security, the Seat of eternal holiness and transcendent glory.

Some were guided by the Light of God, gained admittance into the court of His presence, and quaffed, from the hand of resignation, the waters of everlasting life, and were accounted of them that have truly recognized and believed in Him. Others rebelled against Him, and rejected the signs of God, the Most Powerful, the Almighty, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 144-145​

All I hear from you is a closed mind based upon Beliefs. You tell me all the things I can't do after I have already done them. I think you have been so conditioned by your religion that out of fear, you will find an excuse not to leave them,

Does it really make sense that God needs a middleman in order to interact with His children? The only ones who believe this are the middlemen themselves, the religions they founded and the people they convinced that God can not be accessed except through them.

In reality, you are not accessing God at all. You follow Mankind.

I have found that religious believers get angry when their beliefs are challenged. Why is that? You call me arrogant when I speak the Truth. Others have called me the devil. Others say I hate God. In Reality, I do not hate at all. I make no demands of anyone, so relax. If you want to stay in that box of beliefs for any reason, it's your choice. On the other hand, there will come a time when Real Truth will become more important to you.

Religion makes it easy for people. They serve up there beliefs and all people have to do is accept. Real Discovery takes much much more work.

You have all my Love and Kindness!

 

[Bird123]

Good and evil is defined in the holy books, but there are degrees of good and degrees of evil and there are always exceptions. Some things are black and white, such as that murder is evil, but not all is that clear cut.

That is not God’s system, it is human’s system. In God’s System people follow a revealed religion which has guidelines, teachings and laws, so they can avoid many pitfalls.

If what you are saying is true, everyone would learn by experience and they would never repeat the same mistakes again. If what you are saying is true, criminals would never reoffend but we know that in Reality most criminals re-offend.

Where do you get the idea that everyone will make the Best choice? Does it look like everyone is making the Best choice?

your quote; Where do you get the idea that everyone will make the Best choice? Does it look like everyone is making the Best choice?[/QUOTE]

My Answer: Patience. You will never learn all you need to learn in one mere lifetime.

Everyone learns in their lifetime. Even with baby steps, one will get there given enough time. The good news is that there are no time limits on learning.

 

[Bird123]

You understand nothing about God. You have made God in your own image.

God is not a teacher. God teaches through the Messenger who is the teacher. You have a false concept of God because you ignore the teacher.

God is Love, and God is also a Ruler. God rules the entire Universe.

“Sanctified be the Lord of all mankind, at the mention of Whose name all the atoms of the earth have been made to vibrate, and the Tongue of Grandeur hath been moved to disclose that which had been wrapt in His knowledge and lay concealed within the treasury of His might. He, verily, through the potency of His name, the Mighty, the All-Powerful, the Most High, is the ruler of all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 16-17​

“All praise to the unity of God, and all honor to Him, the sovereign Lord, the incomparable and all-glorious Ruler of the universe, Who, out of utter nothingness, hath created the reality of all things, Who, from naught, hath brought into being the most refined and subtle elements of His creation, and Who, rescuing His creatures from the abasement of remoteness and the perils of ultimate extinction, hath received them into His kingdom of incorruptible glory. Nothing short of His all-encompassing grace, His all-pervading mercy, could have possibly achieved it. How could it, otherwise, have been possible for sheer nothingness to have acquired by itself the worthiness and capacity to emerge from its state of non-existence into the realm of being?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 64-65​

Isn't it petty to want to Rule and Control others? God gave everyone a different view to guaranty mankind a larger view than any one person could have. If you control others to your view, aren't you missing a part of the real picture?

The first thing that God pointed out to me is that Mankind carries such a narrow view. I work on mine every day. How much are you missing with yours?

Just the quotes from Bahaullah you have given me tell me it is coming from mankind. Mankind values so many petty things like Ruling and Controlling.

God does not need or use holy books. Why? It's because you are Living your Lessons. It's a much better learning tool than mere words to someone.

 

[Trailblazer]

God has ways far beyond my or mankind's capabilities.

That is absolutely true.

It is also not a belief that you exist. You want what I say to not be true so badly that you close your mind to the possibilities for yourself.

Of course it is not a belief that I exist. I exist, so that is a reality.
I close my mind to no possibilities. My mind is as open as the sky above.

 

[Trailblazer]

All I hear from you is a closed mind based upon Beliefs. You tell me all the things I can't do after I have already done them. I think you have been so conditioned by your religion that out of fear, you will find an excuse not to leave them.

To turn away from the Messenger of God is akin to turning away from God because He represents God on earth. The fact that I believe in Bahaullah and who he was does not mean I have a closed mind based upon Beliefs. You are obsessed about Beliefs and that nobody should have any religious beliefs but what you have are your own beliefs. Ecco pointed out to you. You probably had some kind of bad experience in childhood with religion so now you have rejected all religion. You are no different than an atheist who has turned away from religion because of Christianity.

What do you think you have done? Why not just be honest and open, or are you afraid to say? I do not have to believe in you because you are not a Messenger of God, but that does not mean I will not believe what you say. I might, or I might not. I have a rational mind I can use to make that determination and I have the free will to choose what to believe.

Does it really make sense that God needs a middleman in order to interact with His children? The only ones who believe this are the middlemen themselves, the religions they founded and the people they convinced that God can not be accessed except through them.

God needs a Messenger to receive and record His message which is intended for all of humanity because every one of the 7.44 billion people in the world cannot receive and record all the 15,000 Tablets Baha’u’llah received and recorded. That is why we need a Messenger. At a certain point people need to use their rational minds.

Interact with His children? How do you think God interacts with humans? Moreover, how do you think you can know it is God interacting and not your own imagination? These are important questions that rational people ask and need answers to.

God cannot be accessed directly by humans, period. I do not even a religion to tell me that. I just need a logical mind. God cannot even be accessed by the Messengers, so how do you think that ordinary human beings can access God?

God is the Inaccessible, the Most High.

“How wondrous is the unity of the Living, the Ever-Abiding God—a unity which is exalted above all limitations, that transcendeth the comprehension of all created things! He hath, from everlasting, dwelt in His inaccessible habitation of holiness and glory, and will unto everlasting continue to be enthroned upon the heights of His independent sovereignty and grandeur. How lofty hath been His incorruptible Essence, how completely independent of the knowledge of all created things, and how immensely exalted will it remain above the praise of all the inhabitants of the heavens and the earth!” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 261-262​

In reality, you are not accessing God at all. You follow Mankind.

And you are accessing God? Please explain exactly how you are accessing an inaccessible God.

You follow yourself which is Mankind. You have no access to God. Nobody has any access to God, except through His Messengers.

I have found that religious believers get angry when their beliefs are challenged. Why is that? You call me arrogant when I speak the Truth. Others have called me the devil. Others say I hate God. In Reality, I do not hate at all. I make no demands of anyone, so relax. If you want to stay in that box of beliefs for any reason, it's your choice. On the other hand, there will come a time when Real Truth will become more important to you.

God has the Real Truth. Where do you think you are getting the Real Truth? Answer the question.

Religion makes it easy for people. They serve up there beliefs and all people have to do is accept. Real Discovery takes much much more work.

You keep saying that Real Discovery takes work, but you cannot explain how you are discovering anything. You cannot Discover God by looking at human actions. That is not God.

 

[Trailblazer]

My quote; Where do you get the idea that everyone will make the Best choice? Does it look like everyone is making the Best choice?

Your Answer; Patience. You will never learn all you need to learn in one mere lifetime.

Everyone learns in their lifetime. Even with baby steps, one will get there given enough time. The good news is that there are no time limits on learning.

I never said that we could learn everything in this lifetime. We have all of eternity to learn.

Does it matter that people make bad choices and hurt themselves and other people when some of this can be avoided by having some guidelines? Do you think the world is just like a child’s playground where it is okay for evil people to hurt good people just so they can learn something? That sounds awfully selfish to me.

The bad news is that some people do not learn by experience. That is self-evident.

 

[Trailblazer]

Isn't it petty to want to Rule and Control others? God gave everyone a different view to guaranty mankind a larger view than any one person could have. If you control others to your view, aren't you missing a part of the real picture?

God is the Ruler of all things. That is just who God is. Everyone knows that but you.

God has all the Power and Control but God does not control people. God gave us free will so we could make our own decisions

God did not give anyone any views. People get their own views. That is why we have a mind and free will.

I have no interest in controlling anybody.

The first thing that God pointed out to me is that Mankind carries such a narrow view. I work on mine every day. How much are you missing with yours?

How did God point that out to you? Did God communicate to you? I guess you must think you are a Prophet.

Just the quotes from Bahaullah you have given me tell me it is coming from mankind. Mankind values so many petty things like Ruling and Controlling.

The quotes from Baha’u’llah tell me that it is coming from God. Sorry you cannot see that.

God is the Ruler of all things. That is God101 stuff. The fact that you know that means there is no way you ever heard from God and you know nothing about who God is. You have made God in your own image because you want God to be a certain way. You do not want a God that might have any power over you, but any God that does not have power over you is an imaginary God. Everyone knows that but you.

God does not need or use holy books. Why? It's because you are Living your Lessons. It's a much better learning tool than mere words to someone.

God uses Messengers who reveal Holy Books. That is God101 stuff. The fact that you know that means there is no way you ever heard from God.

The fact that someone believes in a Holy Book in no way precludes them Living their Lessons. They are still living and learning from experience just like you are. You are completely illogical if you think that a Holy Book prevents people from learning.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I have found that religious believers get angry when their beliefs are challenged. Why is that? You call me arrogant when I speak the Truth. Others have called me the devil. Others say I hate God. In Reality, I do not hate at all. I make no demands of anyone, so relax. If you want to stay in that box of beliefs for any reason, it's your choice. On the other hand, there will come a time when Real Truth will become more important to you.

I’ve seen no indication that either of you have any “Real Truth-with-a-capital-T.”

In fact, it seems to me that this argument has gone on as long as it has because neither of you has offered anything of substance to persuade the other one.

 

[Trailblazer]

I’ve seen no indication that either of you have any “Real Truth-with-a-capital-T.”

In fact, it seems to me that this argument has gone on as long as it has because neither of you has offered anything of substance to persuade the other one.

I cannot speak for the motives of Bird123, but I am not trying to persuade him of anything.
I just answer posts because I like talking to people of myriad beliefs and non-beliefs since I always learn something from talking to people. I am going to present what I believe and why but I certainly do not expect Bird123 to ever agree with me, and that does not matter one iota to me.

On my other forum, I have been posting to four atheists regularly for four years and I know they will never agree with me either. They are now my friends. They have free will so they should never believe in anything that does not make sense to them.

What do you think “Real Truth-with-a-capital-T” would look like, if it existed?
Just curious...

 

[Unveiled Artist]

All I hear from you is a closed mind based upon Beliefs. You tell me all the things I can't do after I have already done them. I think you have been so conditioned by your religion that out of fear, you will find an excuse not to leave them,

Does it really make sense that God needs a middleman in order to interact with His children? The only ones who believe this are the middlemen themselves, the religions they founded and the people they convinced that God can not be accessed except through them.

In reality, you are not accessing God at all. You follow Mankind.

I have found that religious believers get angry when their beliefs are challenged. Why is that? You call me arrogant when I speak the Truth. Others have called me the devil. Others say I hate God. In Reality, I do not hate at all. I make no demands of anyone, so relax. If you want to stay in that box of beliefs for any reason, it's your choice. On the other hand, there will come a time when Real Truth will become more important to you.

Religion makes it easy for people. They serve up there beliefs and all people have to do is accept. Real Discovery takes much much more work.

You have all my Love and Kindness!

I dont mean to be rude, kinda, or ironic but this is the same exact thing many non-believers in abrahamic gods get about our own beliefs. Its weird seeing the defense come from another belief. I know Im off but not many believers get a boomerang affect on how their religions and beliefs affect others.

Interesting.