Questions for Atheists and Agnostics

[ChristineM]

If it mattered what was on a planet 5 billion light years to me, it would be up to me to Discover the Truth. As of now, I have to figure a way to get there. You also were not specific which planet you refer to.

your quote:Its up to the person making the statement of fact to justify his claim. My Answer: You do not understand. I pointed you in a direction by which you can Discover God and your evidence. What you do from here is up to you. God places truth all around you. Does God justifies anything to anyone? No, you must Discover truth for yourself. You see. what you decide to do with Truth is up to you. I have nothing to gain or prove.

From where I stand, I will not feed Beliefs and I can not do your journey to Discovery for you. I'm afraid it's all up to you. Do nothing or see how deep the rabbit hole goes. I will not convince you to make a specific choice.

If you make the statement, its up to you to prove the statement, it does not matter how far away. You cannot expect others to do your work for you.

"You do not understand" seems to be a common mantra in your posts. You have done insulting my intelligence, im finished.

 

[Bird123]

Everything I believe adds up completely with everything else. That is one reason I believe it, it makes sense. The picture is clear to me but it gets clearer as time goes on. As one progresses towards truth, more truth will, come, but we will never know all truth.

I already told you more than once that my Messenger does not tell us not to question. The Messenger does not seek to control our choices any more than God seeks to control them. Doing what was revealed by the Messenger is a choice we make if we believe He speaks for God it makes sense to me to listen to what He had to say and follow it.

How do you think you can know when you have Discovered the Real Truth? What is there to measure it and test it to determine if it is Real?

How do you think we know God before we are born? Where do you think we were before that? How do you think you can have a basic understanding of God?

How do you think you can know how God works or what God is doing or what was said?

How do you think you know about God and what God is all about? That is the hundred-dollar question.

your quote;I already told you more than once that my Messenger does not tell us not to question. My Answer; Perhaps you should go back and read that quote you supplied.

your quote;How do you think you can know when you have Discovered the Real Truth? What is there to measure it and test it to determine if it is Real? My Answer: When you put a puzzle together,you make sure everything adds up, everything fits. As you open more doors, it leads to more knowledge and more doors. At some point you will know what it takes to make a connection. Keep things adding up with everything, let God confirm when you have Discovered enough that you really Understand.

your quote;How do you think we know God before we are born? Where do you think we were before that? How do you think you can have a basic understanding of God? My Answer: You understand someone by understanding their actions. Watch the system. Put the pieces of the puzzle together. Your journey must be yours.

your quote;How do you think you can know how God works or what God is doing or what was said? My Answer:I made a connection.

Language is such a funny thing. Someone asked me what is God's name. Names are not needed. Do you know why? Everyone already knows who everyone is. Does that help? There are ways far beyond mankind.

 

[Bird123]

If you make the statement, its up to you to prove the statement, it does not matter how far away. You cannot expect others to do your work for you.

"You do not understand" seems to be a common mantra in your posts. You have done insulting my intelligence, im finished.

I do not expect anyone to do my work for me just as you should not expect me to do your work for you.
I do not intend to anger you. It's just the way it is. Your journey has never been up to me. My work was to simply place truth in the world. I have done that. From here, it's all up to you.

 

[Bird123]

I did not say there were flaws in the other holy books. I said they are out of date because they were written for another time in history, not for this new age.

How do you think you can know what God’s actions are?

My beliefs were not written by mankind, they were written by a Manifestation of God, which is the closest to God’s Truth one can ever have. What Baha’u’llah wrote is identical to the will of God.

I could probably come up with more, however do you see? Do you feel empty without some version of one of these petty things? Is there a religion that does not incorporate this stuff? If you get rid of it, what are you left with? Anything? Think about it.

My religion does not incorporate all of what you listed; only Believing, Good and Evil, and Laws.

Who decides what is petty, you or God? What happens when people Choose to value Evil and Sin?

your quote;How do you think you can know what God’s actions are? My Answer: If I park a car at your house, can you see any actions even if you did not see me drive up? Can you see the actions of the person who assembled the car? Can you understand the thinking involved on how the car works? Given enough time, how much can you Discover? Look around you. Can you really see no action of God? It stares us all in the face. God hides nothing. Can you see?

Your quote:Who decides what is petty, you or God? My Answer: Don't you know? Each will choose for themselves.

 

[ChristineM]

I do not expect anyone to do my work for me just as you should not expect me to do your work for you.
I do not intend to anger you. It's just the way it is. Your journey has never been up to me. My work was to simply place truth in the world. I have done that. From here, it's all up to you.

Anger??? Don't flatter yourself. Insults from the hard of thinking don't warrant anger, just pity.

 

[ecco]

My work was to simply place truth in the world. I have done that.

You believe in God
Trailblazer believes in the same God
You have placed your "truth" about God
Trailblazer posts her "truth" about God

The two "truths" conflict with each other.

Your "truths" have no more validity than those of any and all religious people who assert that their version is the "real truth".

 

[Bird123]

You believe in God
Trailblazer believes in the same God
You have placed your "truth" about God
Trailblazer posts her "truth" about God

The two "truths" conflict with each other.

Your "truths" have no more validity than those of any and all religious people who assert that their version is the "real truth".

I do not believe in God. God is no longer a belief to me. I know God exists.

As I see it, religion has convinced people to value beliefs over all else. Being so conditioned, how many take the effort to Discover the Real Truth for themselves? Everyone stops at beliefs.

You are right. You are getting lots of information from many sources about God. I also have to say that most of what you hear isn't true. How can you know what the truth really is? In this time-based causal universe God's action can be seen. These actions can not be altered by mankind. If you really seek the truth, it lives within what you see.

Perhaps, you should stop depending on others for your information about God and Discover the Real Truth for yourself. Nothing is hidden. I would rather everyone do that than to merely accept or reject what others say.

 

[Trailblazer]

My quote; I already told you more than once that my Messenger does not tell us not to question.

Your Answer; Perhaps you should go back and read that quote you supplied.

I do not know which quote you are referring to; I have posted a lot of quotes. But now I am telling you that my Messenger does not tell us not to question. In fact, it is the exact opposite:

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.​

“What does it mean to investigate reality? It means that man must forget all hearsay and examine truth himself, for he does not know whether statements he hears are in accordance with reality or not. Wherever he finds truth or reality, he must hold to it, forsaking, discarding all else; for outside of reality there is naught but superstition and imagination.” – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 62.​

My quote; How do you think you can know when you have Discovered the Real Truth? What is there to measure it and test it to determine if it is Real?

Your Answer; When you put a puzzle together,you make sure everything adds up, everything fits. As you open more doors, it leads to more knowledge and more doors. At some point you will know what it takes to make a connection. Keep things adding up with everything, let God confirm when you have Discovered enough that you really Understand.

What I asked you is how you know the pieces of the puzzle represent the Real Truth. How do you know what is behind the doors is the Real Truth? What is there to measure it and test it to determine if it is Real?

How does God confirm when you have Discovered enough that you really Understand? Do you think that God communicates to you?

My quote; How do you think we know God before we are born? Where do you think we were before that? How do you think you can have a basic understanding of God?

Your Answer; You understand someone by understanding their actions. Watch the system. Put the pieces of the puzzle together. Your journey must be yours.

You did not answer my specific questions.

Who is the “someone” that you think you understand by actions? What is the system? Are you referring to God’s actions and God’s system? How do you think you can know either one? What you observe in the world around you is the result of human actions and a human system, not God’s actions or God’s system. There is no way you can infer what God is doing by observing human actions.

My quote; How do you think you can know how God works or what God is doing or what was said?

Your Answer; I made a connection.

How do you know you made a connection with God?

Language is such a funny thing. Someone asked me what is God's name. Names are not needed. Do you know why? Everyone already knows who everyone is. Does that help? There are ways far beyond mankind.

No, names are not needed to know who a person is, but I do not understand how you think you can know who God is.

 

[Trailblazer]

My quote; How do you think you can know what God’s actions are?

Your Answer; If I park a car at your house, can you see any actions even if you did not see me drive up? Can you see the actions of the person who assembled the car? Can you understand the thinking involved on how the car works? Given enough time, how much can you Discover? Look around you. Can you really see no action of God? It stares us all in the face. God hides nothing. Can you see?

No, I do not see. What you see are human actions that you are attributing to God. Nothing that God does is discernible by humans. Anything else that you think God is “doing” is pure conjecture. God hides everything except for the fact that He sends Messengers. They are all we ever get to see of God. The Creation reflects God’s Attributes but not God’s Actions.

My quote; Who decides what is petty, you or God?

Your Answer; Don't you know? Each will choose for themselves.

So the criteria by which we decide what is petty is whatever each person decides is petty? So if a murderer decides it is petty to kill someone is that petty? Do you think you know more than God about what is petty vs. important?

 

[Trailblazer]

I know God exists.

So do I.

 

[1robin]

Do you think that God can show up on earth? If so, how would God do that?

How could a being claim to be God and not be able to appear on Earth? That kind of God wouldn't be omniscient, omnipresent, or omnipotent. If you want to know how he could accomplish this simply look at the bible.

New International Version
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Or

New International Version
"The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" (which means "God with us").

What better examples could there be?

 

[Trailblazer]

How could a being claim to be God and not be able to appear on Earth? That kind of God wouldn't be omniscient, omnipresent, or omnipotent.

Omniscient does not mean "can do anything." It means All-Powerful.
An immaterial Spirit cannot appear in a material world.

If you want to know how he could accomplish this simply look at the bible.

New International Version
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Or

New International Version
"The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" (which means "God with us").

What better examples could there be?

I do not believe that God became a man.
I do not believe that God can incarnate His Essence and reveal it to man. God is, and has ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived.

Jesus was a Manifestation of God in the flesh but not God in the flesh.

Jesus said that no man has ever seen God. We know that people saw Jesus so we know Jesus was not God.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
​

Jesus said He was from God and that God sent Him, differentiating Himself from God:

John 17:3 And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

John 7:28-29 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.​

 

[1robin]

Omniscient does not mean "can do anything." It means All-Powerful.

Actually it is about adequacy. Not all power is strength. God has the power to appear on the Earth. In fact he has even done so.

An immaterial Spirit cannot appear in a material world.

So God can do al things except those things you deem he can't. Your God isn't much of a God. A spirit can appear in a body. Half the bible is about this on subject.

God is one being composed of three persons. The father, the son (a spirit in human form), and the holy spirit.

I do not believe that God became a man.

Then you are going to have to show that the NT authors were in error. The entire NT concerns God becoming a man and dwelling with us.

I do not believe that God can incarnate His Essence and reveal it to man. God is, and has ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived.

Then your God is not as great as my own. You need to show that God is not capable of putting on flesh.

Jesus was a Manifestation of God in the flesh but not God in the flesh.

Jesus forgave sins, only God can do that. Jesus existed before the universe, he has never not existed, he did miracles in his own name, he is the only being to be resurrected, he created everything, he has been placed over everything etc.... He sure sounds like a deity.

Jesus said that no man has ever seen God. We know that people saw Jesus so we know Jesus was not God.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. ​

New International Version
No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Jesus is not the father yet still divine. Are you familiar with the trinity?

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

New International Version
No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

If God is in us then he can manifest himself in the flesh.
​

Jesus said He was from God and that God sent Him, differentiating Himself from God:

John 17:3 And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent. ​

That they might know thee the only true God.--Better, That they might recognize Thee as the only true God.
John 17:3 Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

John 7:28-29 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.

Christ is differentiating between the father and he the son as far as their rolls are concerned not whether they are both divine.

Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”
Revelation 1:17-18;

2 Peter 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”


1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Titus 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

Bible Verses that show Jesus is God​

 

[ecco]

You believe in God
Trailblazer believes in the same God
You have placed your "truth" about God
Trailblazer posts her "truth" about God

The two "truths" conflict with each other.

Your "truths" have no more validity than those of any and all religious people who assert that their version is the "real truth".

I do not believe in God. ...I know God exists.

I'm sure you understand there are two different definitions of the word "believe". So, right off the top, you should stop playing silly word games if you want to try to make a decent argument.

As I see it, religion has convinced people to value beliefs over all else. Being so conditioned, how many take the effort to Discover the Real Truth for themselves? Everyone stops at beliefs.

See above.

You are right. You are getting lots of information from many sources about God. I also have to say that most of what you hear isn't true. How can you know what the truth really is? In this time-based causal universe God's action can be seen. These actions can not be altered by mankind. If you really seek the truth, it lives within what you see.

My previous comments about your truths and other theists' truths still stand.

Perhaps, you should stop depending on others for your information about God and Discover the Real Truth for yourself. Nothing is hidden. I would rather everyone do that than to merely accept or reject what others say.

Your comments are no different than comments from all other theists. Everyone believes, knows, says their god and the truths surrounding "him" are correct and everyone else's are wrong.

If only they would Discover the Real Truth... the same mantra that has been repeated for tens of thousands of years. You are not different. In essence, your views are not different.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Omniscient does not mean "can do anything." It means All-Powerful.
An immaterial Spirit cannot appear in a material world.

At all?

Isn't your entire religion based on the belief that this sometimes isn't true?

 

[Trailblazer]

At all?

Isn't your entire religion based on the belief that this sometimes isn't true?

God does not appear in the material world.
God manifests Himself in the material world in the form of a Manifestation of God which I normally refer to as a Messenger or Prophet. He releases the Holy Spirit into the world, but God never becomes a man and makes a "personal appearance" as most Christians believe that Jesus did.

 

[Bird123]

So do I.

How do you know? Through Beliefs? Through contact? To know God exists through beliefs is not really knowing. It's believing.

 

[Bird123]

I do not know which quote you are referring to; I have posted a lot of quotes. But now I am telling you that my Messenger does not tell us not to question. In fact, it is the exact opposite:

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.​

“What does it mean to investigate reality? It means that man must forget all hearsay and examine truth himself, for he does not know whether statements he hears are in accordance with reality or not. Wherever he finds truth or reality, he must hold to it, forsaking, discarding all else; for outside of reality there is naught but superstition and imagination.” – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 62.​

What I asked you is how you know the pieces of the puzzle represent the Real Truth. How do you know what is behind the doors is the Real Truth? What is there to measure it and test it to determine if it is Real?

How does God confirm when you have Discovered enough that you really Understand? Do you think that God communicates to you?

You did not answer my specific questions.

Who is the “someone” that you think you understand by actions? What is the system? Are you referring to God’s actions and God’s system? How do you think you can know either one? What you observe in the world around you is the result of human actions and a human system, not God’s actions or God’s system. There is no way you can infer what God is doing by observing human actions.

How do you know you made a connection with God?

No, names are not needed to know who a person is, but I do not understand how you think you can know who God is.

your quote;“The Prophets of God should be regarded as physicians whose task is to foster the well-being of the world and its peoples, that, through the spirit of oneness, they may heal the sickness of a divided humanity. To none is given the right to question their words or disparage their conduct, for they are the only ones who can claim to have understood the patient and to have correctly diagnosed its ailments. No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 80
My Answer: Can you read starting: To none is given the right to question....
With the Real God, everyone has the right to question.

your quote:How do you know you made a connection with God? My Answer;You will know when you do. You will also know God because you have been with God before.

your quote;You did not answer my specific questions. My Answer: You seem to want all the answers without taking your journey. The actions of God are all around us. Example: Knowledge is not just given to us. It must be Discovered. Why would God do this? God created illness, viruses, bacteria and disease. This is an action of God. Why do people die? This is an action of God.

Ok. If God wants you to do something, how does He get you to do it? Does God appear and say do it? No. Does God threaten you like mankind does of what will happen to you if you don't? No. Does God send messengers to tell you what to do then tell you how bad you are going to get it if you don't? Of course not. Look around you and Discover something about God.

For the population to exist, God must have a constant supply of physical bodies for people. God doesn't command this. God makes sex so good that there will always be kids.

God's system depends on interaction between people.Does God command that everyone interact? No. If you do not interact after a given amount of time, you start to get lonely. Further, the more isolated one becomes; the more lonely one becomes.

Do you see and understand God's actions? No words are needed. No rules. No laws. No threats. No enforcement needs. It just works all on it's own. God is High Intelligence, You going to have to Stretch if you are going to understand. On the other hand, you just might not be ready.

Your quote;How does God confirm when you have Discovered enough that you really Understand? My Answer: God hears and sees it all. God can know you simply by watching your actions. This is not just one way.

 

[Bird123]

No, I do not see. What you see are human actions that you are attributing to God. Nothing that God does is discernible by humans. Anything else that you think God is “doing” is pure conjecture. God hides everything except for the fact that He sends Messengers. They are all we ever get to see of God. The Creation reflects God’s Attributes but not God’s Actions.

So the criteria by which we decide what is petty is whatever each person decides is petty? So if a murderer decides it is petty to kill someone is that petty? Do you think you know more than God about what is petty vs. important?

Why does God hide things like you said? What purpose is there to hide? Is God afraid you might find out something you are not supposed to know? Does this really add up for you? What is the purpose of hiding everything? God hides nothing!!

Study God's actions and God's system. Why is it important that each decides for themselves what is petty? Yes, even a murderer decides for themselves.

Put the pieces of the puzzle together. Just like God's actions of guarantying having kids and the interaction of people as a part of God's system. How does it fit? Why is it important everyone decides for themselves what is petty? It's going to take work to Discover.

 

[Bird123]

I'm sure you understand there are two different definitions of the word "believe". So, right off the top, you should stop playing silly word games if you want to try to make a decent argument.



See above.



My previous comments about your truths and other theists' truths still stand.



Your comments are no different than comments from all other theists. Everyone believes, knows, says their god and the truths surrounding "him" are correct and everyone else's are wrong.

If only they would Discover the Real Truth... the same mantra that has been repeated for tens of thousands of years. You are not different. In essence, your views are not different.

You do not understand because religion has convinced everyone that the way to the truth is by being convinced. If I was like religion and valued followers. I would work at keeping the followers following. Do I do this? No. I point to where you are capable of discovering the answers for yourself. That doesn't seem to be enough for you. You want me to convince you. My answer: your journey has never ever been up to me.

It's like you are wandering around in a desert thirst for water. When I bump into you I tell you if you walk straight east over a couple of hills you will find a city. Are you going to say prove this? I don't know. You might. On the other hand, I'm going to point your direction and allow you to Discover the truth for yourself.

If you want to Discover the Real Truth, you will explore all possibilities. If you just want something to Believe in, pick the best story or even pick the Belief that God does not exist. I'll be happy regardless of your choice.