Questions for Atheists and Agnostics

[9-10ths_Penguin]

We cannot know everything that is in the mind of God but we can know what God was thinking when He spoke to Baha’u’llah, which is what Baha’u’llah wrote down. That is what I referred to as the will of God. If Baha’u’llah spoke for God then whatever He wrote about God is what God revealed to Baha’u’llah about Himself.

So everything that Baha'u'llah said was given to him by God?

 

[Bird123]

No, Messengers of God are setting rules for humans, rules they got from God. There are no better ways. The Omniscient God knows the best way is to send Messengers.

You can deny anything you want to but that won’t change Reality.

Your description of what God does is irrelevant because you have no way to know what God does, since you deny what the Messengers of God revealed.

Mankind does not hold these things dear. God holds them dear.

God has not abandoned anyone. God is the Educator. God sent Messengers to educate humanity.

“The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High. The light which these souls radiate is responsible for the progress of the world and the advancement of its peoples.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 156-157​

Just because you do not like the idea of punishment, that does not change reality. People are responsible for the free will choices they make and the ensuing actions. People need to be punished when they deserve punishment and rewarded when they deserve a reward. This is justice. There are rewards and punishments in this world and in the next.

“The Great Being saith: The structure of world stability and order hath been reared upon, and will continue to be sustained by, the twin pillars of reward and punishment…” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 219​

God can control anything He wants to control because God is Omnipotent and has All Power. But God does not control free will choices people make and their ensuing actions. We have free will to make our own choices and actions.

God has mercy but also wrath. God’s mercy giving what we have not earned, what we do not deserve; God’s wrath is about giving what is deserved, according to our misdoings.

“He Who is the Eternal Truth knoweth well what the breasts of men conceal. His long forbearance hath emboldened His creatures, for not until the appointed time is come will He rend any veil asunder. His surpassing mercy hath restrained the fury of His wrath, and caused most people to imagine that the one true God is unaware of the things they have privily committed. By Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Informed! The mirror of His knowledge reflecteth, with complete distinctness, precision and fidelity, the doings of all men.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 204​

All people learn something but many people do not learn what they need to learn before they die. The learning in the afterlife is not the same as it is here because there will be no free will to make choices and change one’s character after they die. That is what this life is for, to build our character, acquire the spiritual attributes we will need in a spiritual world. After we die physically we will be essentially what we are when we left this world.

God’s System is based upon the Messengers God sends to Educate humanity. What you imagine is not anything but what you imagine.

No, that would not make me on a higher level than God. These are just things you imagine about the Real God but you believe in an imaginary god, one you created in your own head.

You do not copy God because you do not know what God is doing. You just imagine that you do.

You have no Light to shine, because the Light of God comes through the Messengers of God, not through you. God recreates all things through Them in every age. The Light they radiate is responsible for the progress of the world and the advancement of its peoples.

“In every age and cycle He hath, through the splendorous light shed by the Manifestations of His wondrous Essence, recreated all things, so that whatsoever reflecteth in the heavens and on the earth the signs of His glory may not be deprived of the outpourings of His mercy, nor despair of the showers of His favors. How all-encompassing are the wonders of His boundless grace! Behold how they have pervaded the whole of creation.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 62​

Maybe you should try that advice on yourself and look at what God has revealed through the latest Messenger.

You are Blind to so very much. You have much to Discover before you will Understand. EGO gets in the way of so much learning. Will you allow your EGO to do just that?

 

[Trailblazer]

So everything that Baha'u'llah said was given to him by God?

No, not everything He said in his life. He said a lot of things that did not originate from God...
Only what He wrote down and attributed to a revelation from God came from God.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are Blind to so very much. You have much to Discover before you will Understand. EGO gets in the way of so much learning. Will you allow your EGO to do just that?

Everyone has an ego that prevents them from LOOKING at anything they have decided cannot be true.
The primary reason that people reject God's Messengers is because they have decided it cannot be true, based upon nothing but their own bias and personal opinion.

I Understand what is most important to understand.

“The beginning of all things is the knowledge of God, and the end of all things is strict observance of whatsoever hath been sent down from the empyrean of the Divine Will that pervadeth all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 5​

I still have much to Learn.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

You said: “Sound a bit like another self-serving cop-out to me.”

I thought you were referring to Baha’u’llah so it was an honest mistake, not a straw man. So who is self-serving and what is the cop-out?

The “premise” upon which these truth claims are based is that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God who got a revelation from God and that what Baha’u’llah revealed in His Writings is identical with the will of God. Obviously, if you do not accept the premise you are not going to accept the conclusions (truth claims).

We cannot know everything that is in the mind of God but we can know what God was thinking when He spoke to Baha’u’llah, which is what Baha’u’llah wrote down. That is what I referred to as the will of God. If Baha’u’llah spoke for God then whatever He wrote about God is what God revealed to Baha’u’llah about Himself.

No, Messengers of God (Manifestations of God) are not limited to the Baha’i Faith. They have been sent by God from the dawn of human history. The most recent that preceded the Bab and Baha’u’llah were Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. Show me any men who have done what these men did and who are still worshipped by millions of people all over the world after thousands of years. Who are the men you speak of who have sacrificed their lives for the betterment of all of humanity? Why don’t people believe that they were Messengers (Prophets) of God?

“What then is the mission of the divine prophets? Their mission is the education and advancement of the world of humanity. They are the real teachers and educators, the universal instructors of mankind. If we wish to discover whether any one of these great souls or messengers was in reality a prophet of God we must investigate the facts surrounding His life and history; and the first point of our investigation will be the education He bestowed upon mankind. If He has been an educator, if He has really trained a nation or people, causing it to rise from the lowest depths of ignorance to the highest station of knowledge, then we are sure that He was a prophet. This is a plain and clear method of procedure, proof that is irrefutable. We do not need to seek after other proofs.” Bahá’í World Faith, p. 273​

No, it sounds more like a "Freudian slip" than an honest mistake, but whatever. Why would you think I meant anyone other than yourself? I never said "everything" in the mind of a God. This would presume that you could know SOMETHING about the mind of a God. Inserting this term is a "red herring" fallacy, and intellectually dishonest. You know absolutely, unequivocally, and beyond a shadow of a doubt, NOTHING about the mind, or the nature of a God. But to believe that another human does know, is even more ludicrous. You simply KNOW what you want to BELIEVE you know.

We cannot know everything that is in the mind of God but we can know what God was thinking when He spoke to Baha’u’llah, which is what Baha’u’llah wrote down. That is what I referred to as the will of God. If Baha’u’llah spoke for God then whatever He wrote about God is what God revealed to Baha’u’llah about Himself.

This is confusing. You simply make more truth claims without evidence.

We can know what God was thinking
God spoke to Baha’u’llah because he wrote it down
Whatever the Baha'u'llah wrote down is referred to as the will of God
Whatever the Baha'u'llah wrote down about the nature of a God, was reveled to him by that God
The Baha'u'llah speaks FOR a God
The Baha'u'llah is a manifestation of a God

But in the second sentence you make a dependent claim(if and then). Therefore, IF the Baha'u'llah did not speak to a God, THEN anything that he wrote down, does not represent the true nature of the mind of a God. Or, even the existence of a God. Correct? Simply believing that something is true, does not make it so. This is why objective evidence is critical to the knowing and not the believing. So, do you KNOW if the Messenger is a human or a Demigod? Do you KNOW if the Messenger did actually received His words of truth from a God? If so, how do you KNOW, not why do you BELIEVE you know?

Chief Joseph, Martin Luther King, Mahatma Gandhi, Oskar Schindler, Jimmy Carter, Rosa Parks, the Dalai Lama(14th), hundreds of thousands of soldiers that have made the ultimate sacrifice, Joseph Campbell, Richard Attenborough, Jacques Cousteau, Franklin Roosevelt, Queen Elisabeth, Elvis, Bruce Lee, John Wayne, Michael Jackson, 911 rescuers and victims, Albert Einstein, Abraham Lincoln, Isaac Asimov, and countless other unseen hero's under the media radar, are the people that I am referring to. We will not be around for thousands of years to know how long they will be continuously worshipped. But we know that many are worshipped NOW, and many have been for hundreds of years. But under no circumstances do we claim that they were literally Messengers from a God. Unless some aspects of a person's life includes obvious and demonstrated miracles, supernatural events, interdimensional travel, mind reading, or some kind of paranormal event, then I don't see any correlation between how a person lives his/her life, and becoming a Messenger for a God. Also, any human can BELIEVE that they are the Messenger sent by a God, but it is irrational to KNOW that they are the Messenger sent by a God. It is simply an inbuilt part of the human condition, that we are able to believe that anything is possible.

Finally, quoting from a book that creates its own logic to avoid justifying or proving its own truth claims, is no different than the same self-serving failure to apply standards of rational evaluation and critical thinking, that we clearly see practiced in other cultist doctrines.

 

[Trailblazer]

I never said "everything" in the mind of a God. This would presume that you could know SOMETHING about the mind of a God. Inserting this term is a "red herring" fallacy, and intellectually dishonest. You know absolutely, unequivocally, and beyond a shadow of a doubt, NOTHING about the mind, or the nature of a God. But to believe that another human does know, is even more ludicrous. You simply KNOW what you want to BELIEVE you know.

I am not dishonest or intellectually dishonest. I do not know ANYTHING about the nature of God or the mind of God. Nobody does.

This is confusing. You simply make more truth claims without evidence.

There is no scientific evidence of God. Manifestations of God (Messengers) are the only way we can KNOW anything about God. The Revelation of Baha’u’llah is the WAY we can know about God in this new age, although we can ALSO know about God from the Bible and the Qur’an.

We can know what God was thinking
God spoke to Baha’u’llah because he wrote it down
Whatever the Baha'u'llah wrote down is referred to as the will of God
Whatever the Baha'u'llah wrote down about the nature of a God, was revealed to him by that God
The Baha'u'llah speaks FOR a God
The Baha'u'llah is a manifestation of a God

Some of that is true and some of it is false so I will change it to more accurately reflect what I meant to convey and put it in the order that flows.

• Baha'u'llah is a Manifestation of a God.
• Baha'u'llah speaks FOR God.
• God spoke to Baha’u’llah and Baha’u’llah wrote it down.
• Whatever Baha'u'llah wrote down is identical to the will of God.
• We cannot know what God was thinking or even if or how God thinks, because the nature of God is unknowable
• Baha'u'llah did not write anything down about the NATURE of God, except to say we can never know the nature of God (which Baha’u’llah refers to as God’s Essence).

But in the second sentence you make a dependent claim (if and then). Therefore, IF the Baha'u'llah did not speak to a God, THEN anything that he wrote down, does not represent the true nature of the mind of a God. Or, even the existence of a God. Correct? Simply believing that something is true, does not make it so. This is why objective evidence is critical to the knowing and not the believing. So, do you KNOW if the Messenger is a human or a Demigod? Do you KNOW if the Messenger did actually received His words of truth from a God? If so, how do you KNOW, not why do you BELIEVE you know?

If Baha’u’llah did not speak for God He was a false Prophet. In that case we can all pack up our bags and go home. Either everything I just listed is true or none of it is true.

As I keep saying to Unveiled Artist, I do not NEED to know the nature of God in order to know that God exists. The two are not related in any manner, shape or form.

Obviously, believing in something does not make it true. That does not mean we need objective evidence. There is no objective evidence for God and there never will be. The Messengers of God ARE the evidence that God exists because they are what God gave us as evidence.

I know because I TRUST Baha’u’llah was telling the truth about what happened to Him. I trust Bahaullah because I have done my due diligence, just like all the other Baha’is, many of whom researched the Baha’i Faith for years before they became Baha’is.

Chief Joseph, Martin Luther King, Mahatma Gandhi, Oskar Schindler, Jimmy Carter, Rosa Parks, the Dalai Lama(14th), hundreds of thousands of soldiers that have made the ultimate sacrifice, Joseph Campbell, Richard Attenborough, Jacques Cousteau, Franklin Roosevelt, Queen Elisabeth, Elvis, Bruce Lee, John Wayne, Michael Jackson, 911 rescuers and victims, Albert Einstein, Abraham Lincoln, Isaac Asimov, and countless other unseen hero's under the media radar, are the people that I am referring to. We will not be around for thousands of years to know how long they will be continuously worshipped. But we know that many are worshipped NOW, and many have been for hundreds of years. But under no circumstances do we claim that they were literally Messengers from a God.

None of those people claimed to be Messengers of God. None of them fulfilled the Bible prophecies for the Return of Christ and the Messiah. They are just human beings. They have no divine nature as do the Manifestations of God.

Unless some aspects of a person's life includes obvious and demonstrated miracles, supernatural events, interdimensional travel, mind reading, or some kind of paranormal event, then I don't see any correlation between how a person lives his/her life, and becoming a Messenger for a God. Also, any human can BELIEVE that they are the Messenger sent by a God, but it is irrational to KNOW that they are the Messenger sent by a God. It is simply an inbuilt part of the human condition, that we are able to believe that anything is possible.

They KNOW that they are Messengers of God because they know they received a revelation from God. We either choose to believe them or not. There is evidence we can look at that backs up their claims, but there is no objective proof.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

I am not dishonest or intellectually dishonest. I do not know ANYTHING about the nature of God or the mind of God. Nobody does.

There is no scientific evidence of God. Manifestations of God (Messengers) are the only way we can KNOW anything about God. The Revelation of Baha’u’llah is the WAY we can know about God in this new age, although we can ALSO know about God from the Bible and the Qur’an.

Some of that is true and some of it is false so I will change it to more accurately reflect what I meant to convey and put it in the order that flows.

• Baha'u'llah is a Manifestation of a God.
• Baha'u'llah speaks FOR God.
• God spoke to Baha’u’llah and Baha’u’llah wrote it down.
• Whatever Baha'u'llah wrote down is identical to the will of God.
• We cannot know what God was thinking or even if or how God thinks, because the nature of God is unknowable
• Baha'u'llah did not write anything down about the NATURE of God, except to say we can never know the nature of God (which Baha’u’llah refers to as God’s Essence).

If Baha’u’llah did not speak for God He was a false Prophet. In that case we can all pack up our bags and go home. Either everything I just listed is true or none of it is true.

As I keep saying to Unveiled Artist, I do not NEED to know the nature of God in order to know that God exists. The two are not related in any manner, shape or form.

Obviously, believing in something does not make it true. That does not mean we need objective evidence. There is no objective evidence for God and there never will be. The Messengers of God ARE the evidence that God exists because they are what God gave us as evidence.

I know because I TRUST Baha’u’llah was telling the truth about what happened to Him. I trust Bahaullah because I have done my due diligence, just like all the other Baha’is, many of whom researched the Baha’i Faith for years before they became Baha’is.

None of those people claimed to be Messengers of God. None of them fulfilled the Bible prophecies for the Return of Christ and the Messiah. They are just human beings. They have no divine nature as do the Manifestations of God.

They KNOW that they are Messengers of God because they know they received a revelation from God. We either choose to believe them or not. There is evidence we can look at that backs up their claims, but there is no objective proof.

It can become a very frustrating discourse if you are just going to keep changing the meaning of your own words. Are you now denying all the truth claims you've made? This is also intellectually dishonest. If you simply BELIEVE that the claims you've made are true, then just say so. You are claiming that you KNOW that your claims are true, which is totally different. If you can't prove that you know it, then you don't know it. Trusting is not evidence for knowing. You certainly need objective evidence to determine the validity of any truth claim. The absence of evidence is NOT evidence of certainty. You are the one who is making extraordinary truth claims, and inferring that any objective evidence is unnecessary. This is self-serving and illogical. It also allows for the introduction of even more irrational and radical truth claims(cult claims).

Again, we are not talking about what you believe is true. We are talking about what you claim you KNOW is true. Creating a new list of truth claims, doesn't change your need to prove even ONE of them. Hopefully, without using one unsupported truth claim to explain another. How could you possibly know anything for certain about a God? How could you know for certain that a human is a Messenger for a God? We can believe in the existence of anything, but to know the existence of anything, requires at least some objective evidence. Especially, since you are not making ordinary claims.

Obviously, believing in something does not make it true. That does not mean we need objective evidence. There is no objective evidence for God and there never will be. The Messengers of God ARE the evidence that God exists because they are what God gave us as evidence.

This is simply poor logic, and is riddled in fallacies. All four statements are totally unrelated(believing, objective evidence, God, and Messengers), and all have zero evidentiary value.

I know because I TRUST Baha’u’llah was telling the truth about what happened to Him. I trust Bahaullah because I have done my due diligence, just like all the other Baha’is, many of whom researched the Baha’i Faith for years before they became Baha’is.

I think that what is amazing, is that in all those years of due diligence, no one can present any objective evidence to support the claim that a Messenger of a God exists, let alone the existence of a God. Not even present a good fallacy-free logical construct. It would seem that your due diligence is simply an exercise in confirmation bias, and cognitive dissonance. Critical thinkers DO NOT see what they want to see, or find what they want to find. It is not about the amount of work, it is only about the results of that work.

I never said or implied that the people I mentioned claimed to be Messengers from a God. None of them claimed to fulfill any biblical prophesies, or have any divine nature per se. There were truly human, but they were very special humans. Especially, in their beliefs and their life's work. They did not make arguments from incredulity, or make any appeals to divinity. I specifically stated, "But under no circumstances do we claim that they were literally Messengers from a God". So, spare me another straw man. You asked me a question, and I simply answered it. I simple listed people that I thought fitted the criteria you first gave me. Now you've created two new conditional qualifications, to exclude them all. Why am I not surprised?

My suspicion is that you need to supplant your beliefs with as many subjective facts and logic as you can. In this way you can validate your belief, maintain your credibility, and still be internally and logically consistent. Unfortunately, your claims are only logically consistent and factual, as long as you don't venture outside of the choir.

 

[Trailblazer]

It can become a very frustrating discourse if you are just going to keep changing the meaning of your own words. Are you now denying all the truth claims you've made? This is also intellectually dishonest. If you simply BELIEVE that the claims you've made are true, then just say so. You are claiming that you KNOW that your claims are true, which is totally different. If you can't prove that you know it, then you don't know it. Trusting is not evidence for knowing. You certainly need objective evidence to determine the validity of any truth claim. The absence of evidence is NOT evidence of certainty. You are the one who is making extraordinary truth claims, and inferring that any objective evidence is unnecessary. This is self-serving and illogical. It also allows for the introduction of even more irrational and radical truth claims (cult claims).

Again, we are not talking about what you believe is true. We are talking about what you claim you KNOW is true. Creating a new list of truth claims, doesn't change your need to prove even ONE of them. Hopefully, without using one unsupported truth claim to explain another. How could you possibly know anything for certain about a God? How could you know for certain that a human is a Messenger for a God? We can believe in the existence of anything, but to know the existence of anything, requires at least some objective evidence. Especially, since you are not making ordinary claims.

I believe and know that the claims I have made are true. I do not have to be able to prove them to know them. In order to call them facts I would have to be able to prove them, but I am not calling them facts, I am calling them beliefs.

I do not need objective evidence of God in order to know that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God. I have objective evidence of Baha’u’llah and everything that surrounds His Revelation, namely the history of His Life and His Writings, so I know He was a Manifestation of God. That is the only way I can know so I accept that reality. There is nothing illogical about that. What would be illogical would be for me to think I could know what Baha’u’llah knew. I cannot know that because I did not get the message from God; He did, so all I can know is what He wrote.

I know according to the definition of know. I have information in my mind and I am aware of it:

Know: to have information in your mind; to be aware of something:know Definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

I have no idea why you would say this is self-serving. I do not need to prove anything to anyone except myself. If others want to know the way I know then they have to do what I did and prove it to themselves. In the Baha’i Faith, that is called Independent Investigation of Truth.

This is simply poor logic, and is riddled in fallacies. All four statements are totally unrelated (believing, objective evidence, God, and Messengers), and all have zero evidentiary value.

It is totally logical that God would send a Messenger to prove He exists and reveal a message to humanity because there is no other way a God could communicate that humans could understand. The atheist’s bias against the “idea” of God using Messengers is what prevents them from seeing how logical this is.

I think that what is amazing, is that in all those years of due diligence, no one can present any objective evidence to support the claim that a Messenger of a God exists, let alone the existence of a God.

There is plenty of objective evidence that supports the claim that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God, as I noted above. It is not as if His Life is shrouded in mystery. That He existed is a known fact. There is plenty of information about His Life and His Mission, and anyone can read His Writings. This is ample evidence for me.

Nobody can prove that Baha’u’llah got a revelation from God as a fact, for obvious reasons, so all we can do is look at the evidence that surrounds His revelation and read His Writings. His Writings alone are proof to me that He got a message from God, but I do not expect others to see them that way, because all people perceive things differently.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

I believe and know that the claims I have made are true. I do not have to be able to prove them to know them. In order to call them facts I would have to be able to prove them, but I am not calling them facts, I am calling them beliefs.

I do not need objective evidence of God in order to know that Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation of God. I have objective evidence of Baha’u’llah and everything that surrounds His Revelation, namely the history of His Life and His Writings, so I know He was a Manifestation of God. That is the only way I can know so I accept that reality. There is nothing illogical about that. What would be illogical would be for me to think I could know what Baha’u’llah knew. I cannot know that because I did not get the message from God; He did, so all I can know is what He wrote.

I know according to the definition of know. I have information in my mind and I am aware of it:

Know: to have information in your mind; to be aware of something:know Definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

I have no idea why you would say this is self-serving. I do not need to prove anything to anyone except myself. If others want to know the way I know then they have to do what I did and prove it to themselves. In the Baha’i Faith, that is called Independent Investigation of Truth.

It is totally logical that God would send a Messenger to prove He exists and reveal a message to humanity because there is no other way a God could communicate that humans could understand. The atheist’s bias against the “idea” of God using Messengers is what prevents them from seeing how logical this is.

There is plenty of objective evidence that supports the claim that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God, as I noted above. It is not as if His Life is shrouded in mystery. That He existed is a known fact. There is plenty of information about His Life and His Mission, and anyone can read His Writings. This is ample evidence for me.

Nobody can prove that Baha’u’llah got a revelation from God as a fact, for obvious reasons, so all we can do is look at the evidence that surrounds His revelation and read His Writings. His Writings alone are proof to me that He got a message from God, but I do not expect others to see them that way, because all people perceive things differently.

Can we just avoid any silly qualia over the word "know"? We both know in this context, that it means more than simply having the information(knowledge) in our mind, and are able to access it. I was referring to all the truth clams you were making, without any evidence to support them. Knowing also means, sexual intercourse with, awareness of truth and factuality, perceived directly, and having direct cognition of. I'm using "to know" to mean having a very high degree of certainty. There is no point in arguing, if you're just going to keep making truth claims, without anything to support them. How do you KNOW,

that a Messenger exists
that the Messenger is from a God
that this is the only way God can communicate with humans(His creation)
that a God exists

Since you have now admitted that your truth claims, are only belief claims, then it is your right to believe anything you want. There are those that believe in returning spaceships, and the Xenu story. Belief claims do not require any evidence at all. Regardless of whether you need proof or you don't. You may not need objective evidence to support your extraordinary claims, but most rational thinkers do. "Gullible", is the first word that comes to mind in the absence of a critical thinking. Also, belief claims need not be logical or rational, you only need to believe that they are.

I am curious, as to why you feel that Atheists are biased towards the existence of a God, or the idea of a Messenger from a God. Without objective evidence, neither claims are falsifiable. But with objective evidence, these claims CAN be falsified. Therefore, these claims will no longer be beliefs. They would become facts/evidence. I am also curious as to what is the ultimate goal of your faith. Why should others need to convince(prove to) themselves as to the validity of your faith, in order to believe as you do? If someone tells me that the sun will not rise tomorrow, should I investigate this claim until I can prove to myself that the sun won't come up tomorrow? Or, is this not an extraordinary claim compared to being a Messenger from a God?

 

[Trailblazer]

I was referring to all the truth clams you were making, without any evidence to support them. There is no point in arguing, if you're just going to keep making truth claims, without anything to support them. How do you KNOW,

that a Messenger exists
that the Messenger is from a God
that this is the only way God can communicate with humans(His creation)
that a God exists.

I know because of what Baha’u’llah wrote. I believe what He wrote because it is self-evident that He was a Messenger of God, given all the evidence that indicates that.

Since you have now admitted that your truth claims, are only belief claims, then it is your right to believe anything you want.

No, we have not established that because belief claims can be true.

There are those that believe in returning spaceships, and the Xenu story. Belief claims do not require any evidence at all. Regardless of whether you need proof or you don't. You may not need objective evidence to support your extraordinary claims, but most rational thinkers do. "Gullible", is the first word that comes to mind in the absence of a critical thinking. Also, belief claims need not be logical or rational, you only need to believe that they are.

No, only atheists need objective evidence for God which is completely irrational because there can never be objective evidence of God, so obviously there can be no objective evidence that God spoke to Messengers. These are not rational or critical thinkers. They are people with a bias.

Some religions are illogical and irrational, but that does not mean that all religions are illogical and irrational. To say that is the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization.

Hasty generalization usually shows this pattern:

1. religion a is illogical and irrational
2. religion b is illogical and irrational
3. religion c is illogical and irrational
4. religion d is illogical and irrational
5. religion e is illogical and irrational
6. Therefore, religion f is illogical and irrational

I am curious, as to why you feel that Atheists are biased towards the existence of a God, or the idea of a Messenger from a God. Without objective evidence, neither claims are falsifiable. But with objective evidence, these claims CAN be falsified. Therefore, these claims will no longer be beliefs. They would become facts/evidence.

But since there can be no objective evidence or God and thus no objective evidence that a Messenger got a message from God, God and Messengers can neither be proven or disproven. We can prove a belief to ourselves but that does not make it a fact. If a belief was proven to be a fact it would be accepted by everyone.

I am also curious as to what is the ultimate goal of your faith.

The ultimate goal of the Baha’i Faith is to fulfill God’s Purpose for all of humanity and build the Kingdom of God on earth.

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it......” The Promised Day is Come, p. 116​

The Kingdom of God on earth is also referred to as a “new world order.”The old world order is defective and it has been crumbling since the coming of Baha’u’llah but the rate at which this is happening is rapidly escalating. You can see that all over the world in politics and religion. Governments are rapidly changing and the older religions are being challenged.

“The winds of despair,” writes Bahá’u’lláh, as He surveys the immediate destinies of mankind, “are, alas, blowing from every direction, and the strife that divides and afflicts the human race is daily increasing. The signs of impending convulsions and chaos can now be discerned, inasmuch as the prevailing order appears to be lamentably defective.”
The Promised Day Is Come, p. 116​

Concurrent with the collapse of the old world order, a new world order is in the process of being built and it will eventually replace the old world order.

“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7​

The goal of the Baha’i Faith isthe betterment of the world and the tranquility of its peoples,but that will not be fully realized until the unity of mankind is firmly established, which requires that humanity heed the counsels of Baha’u’llah.

“The One true God bearethMe witness, and His creatures will testify, that not for a moment did I allow Myself to be hidden from the eyes of men, nor did I consent to shield My person from their injury. Before the face of all men I have arisen, and bidden them fulfil My pleasure. My object is none other than the betterment of the world and the tranquillity of its peoples.The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 286​

Baha’u’llah hoisted the Standard of God among all nations, which means that in the future diverse religions and races will become friends and companions. The contentions of races, the differences of religions, and the barriers between nations will be completely removed, and everyone on earth will attain perfect union and reconciliation. Eventually, there will be only one religion, the religion of God, and everyone will believe in God.

“One of the great events,” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá has, in His “Some Answered Questions,” affirmed, “which is to occur in the Day of the manifestation of that Incomparable Branch [Bahá’u’lláh] is the hoisting of the Standard of God among all nations. By this is meant that all nations and kindreds will be gathered together under the shadow of this Divine Banner, which is no other than the Lordly Branch itself, and will become a single nation. Religious and sectarian antagonism, the hostility of races and peoples, and differences among nations, will be eliminated. All men will adhere to one religion, will have one common faith, will be blended into one race, and become a single people. All will dwell in one common fatherland, which is the planet itself.”
The Promised Day Is Come, pp. 119-121​

Why should others need to convince (prove to) themselves as to the validity of your faith, in order to believe as you do? If someone tells me that the sun will not rise tomorrow, should I investigate this claim until I can prove to myself that the sun won't come up tomorrow? Or, is this not an extraordinary claim compared to being a Messenger from a God?

Others don’t have to prove it to themselves unless they want to. Belief has always been a choice and God wants it that way. That is why we all have free will. It is indeed a bold claim that Baha’u’llah makes, but if it is true there huge implications for the salvation of humanity but also for individual salvation.

Jesus said that we attain eternal life by believing in Him....

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
​

Baha’u’llah has now said we gain eternal life by believing in Him in this new Day of God.

“Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213​

 

[Truly Enlightened]

I know because of what Baha’u’llah wrote. I believe what He wrote because it is self-evident that He was a Messenger of God, given all the evidence that indicates that.

No, we have not established that because belief claims can be true.

No, only atheists need objective evidence for God which is completely irrational because there can never be objective evidence of God, so obviously there can be no objective evidence that God spoke to Messengers. These are not rational or critical thinkers. They are people with a bias.

Some religions are illogical and irrational, but that does not mean that all religions are illogical and irrational. To say that is the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization.

Hasty generalization usually shows this pattern:

1. religion a is illogical and irrational
2. religion b is illogical and irrational
3. religion c is illogical and irrational
4. religion d is illogical and irrational
5. religion e is illogical and irrational
6. Therefore, religion f is illogical and irrational

But since there can be no objective evidence or God and thus no objective evidence that a Messenger got a message from God, God and Messengers can neither be proven or disproven. We can prove a belief to ourselves but that does not make it a fact. If a belief was proven to be a fact it would be accepted by everyone.

The ultimate goal of the Baha’i Faith is to fulfill God’s Purpose for all of humanity and build the Kingdom of God on earth.

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it......” The Promised Day is Come, p. 116​

The Kingdom of God on earth is also referred to as a “new world order.”The old world order is defective and it has been crumbling since the coming of Baha’u’llah but the rate at which this is happening is rapidly escalating. You can see that all over the world in politics and religion. Governments are rapidly changing and the older religions are being challenged.

“The winds of despair,” writes Bahá’u’lláh, as He surveys the immediate destinies of mankind, “are, alas, blowing from every direction, and the strife that divides and afflicts the human race is daily increasing. The signs of impending convulsions and chaos can now be discerned, inasmuch as the prevailing order appears to be lamentably defective.”
The Promised Day Is Come, p. 116​

Concurrent with the collapse of the old world order, a new world order is in the process of being built and it will eventually replace the old world order.

“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7​

The goal of the Baha’i Faith isthe betterment of the world and the tranquility of its peoples,but that will not be fully realized until the unity of mankind is firmly established, which requires that humanity heed the counsels of Baha’u’llah.

“The One true God bearethMe witness, and His creatures will testify, that not for a moment did I allow Myself to be hidden from the eyes of men, nor did I consent to shield My person from their injury. Before the face of all men I have arisen, and bidden them fulfil My pleasure. My object is none other than the betterment of the world and the tranquillity of its peoples.The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 286​

Baha’u’llah hoisted the Standard of God among all nations, which means that in the future diverse religions and races will become friends and companions. The contentions of races, the differences of religions, and the barriers between nations will be completely removed, and everyone on earth will attain perfect union and reconciliation. Eventually, there will be only one religion, the religion of God, and everyone will believe in God.

“One of the great events,” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá has, in His “Some Answered Questions,” affirmed, “which is to occur in the Day of the manifestation of that Incomparable Branch [Bahá’u’lláh] is the hoisting of the Standard of God among all nations. By this is meant that all nations and kindreds will be gathered together under the shadow of this Divine Banner, which is no other than the Lordly Branch itself, and will become a single nation. Religious and sectarian antagonism, the hostility of races and peoples, and differences among nations, will be eliminated. All men will adhere to one religion, will have one common faith, will be blended into one race, and become a single people. All will dwell in one common fatherland, which is the planet itself.”
The Promised Day Is Come, pp. 119-121​

Others don’t have to prove it to themselves unless they want to. Belief has always been a choice and God wants it that way. That is why we all have free will. It is indeed a bold claim that Baha’u’llah makes, but if it is true there huge implications for the salvation of humanity but also for individual salvation.

Jesus said that we attain eternal life by believing in Him....

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
​

Baha’u’llah has now said we gain eternal life by believing in Him in this new Day of God.

“Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213​

I know because of what Baha’u’llah wrote. I believe what He wrote because it is self-evident that He was a Messenger of God, given all the evidence that indicates that.

You KNOW that the Baha'u'llah is a Messenger from God, because of what he wrote? You BELIEVE that what he wrote is self-evident that he is a Messenger of God. Especially, since all evidence indicate this? This is textbook circular reasoning. What written message could he possible write, that would indicate that it came from a God? Or, that he is God's Messenger? What paranormal or supernatural message can you cite?

No, we have not established that because belief claims can be true.

If belief claims were true, they would no longer be belief claims. They would be truth claims, and could easily be demonstrated.

No, only atheists need objective evidence for God which is completely irrational because there can never be objective evidence of God, so obviously there can be no objective evidence that God spoke to Messengers. These are not rational or critical thinkers. They are people with a bias.

Some religions are illogical and irrational, but that does not mean that all religions are illogical and irrational. To say that is the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization.

How is it possible that you can be so ignorant of the significance and the extreme magnitude of your extraordinary claims. You are claiming, without any evidence, that a supernatural, all-powerful, all-knowing, eternal God exists. You then want us to worship Him, obey Him, love Him, and subjugate ourselves to pious servitude. All because we bare the sins of His first disappointment, and must repent if we want to live again after we are dead. You then claim, without evidence, that a Persian man is the current Messenger from a God. But to add more insult to rational intelligence, you are claiming that it is irrational to need objective evidence for the existence of a God, or His Messenger. It is ironic that you criticize those asking for evidence, and all the while claiming that you do HAVE evidence.

The goal of the Baha’i Faith isthe betterment of the world and the tranquility of its peoples,but that will not be fully realized until the unity of mankind is firmly established, which requires that humanity heed the counsels of Baha’u’llah.

The goal of your religion is to create a New World Order? A Kingdom of God here on earth? There will eventually be only ONE religion, and EVERYONE will believe in God? Humanity must HEED to the counsels of Baha'u'llah? The Unity of Mankind must be FIRMLY established? I think I've heard enough. I sincerely hope that a world-wide theocracy will never come to pass. Can you imagine the abuse that it would lend itself to? We are all humans, and therefore imperfect. Can you imagine what would happen when a bunch of imperfect old men(no women) have the power to control the behavior, and beliefs of the entire world? What about those billions that choose rational evidence over religious beliefs to live their lives? Will the new world order crusaders be sent to keep them in line? Fortunately, history has repeatedly shown what happens to those seeking total power, or world domination. Hopefully people will see past the low-key Donald Trump rhetoric, and expose the terrible consequences of this religious insanity.

 

[Trailblazer]

You KNOW that the Baha'u'llah is a Messenger from God, because of what he wrote? You BELIEVE that what he wrote is self-evident that he is a Messenger of God. Especially, since all evidence indicate this? This is textbook circular reasoning. What written message could he possible write, that would indicate that it came from a God? Or, that he is God's Messenger? What paranormal or supernatural message can you cite?

I do not know ONLY because of what Baha’u’llah wrote. I also know because of His Life, what He did on his Mission, Bible prophecies that He fulfilled, and predictions He made that came to pass.

Regarding His Writings, I consider the way His verses were written to be proof of the supernatural:

“So prolific was this period, that during the first two years after His return from His retirement, according to the testimony of Nabíl, who was at that time living in Baghdád, the unrecorded verses that streamed from His lips averaged, in a single day and night, the equivalent of the Qur’án! As to those verses which He either dictated or wrote Himself, their number was no less remarkable than either the wealth of material they contained, or the diversity of subjects to which they referred.........A certain MuḥammadKarím, a native of Shíráz, who had been a witness to the rapidity and the manner in which the Báb had penned the verses with which He was inspired, has left the following testimony to posterity, after attaining, during those days, the presence of Bahá’u’lláh, and beholding with his own eyes what he himself had considered to be the only proof of the mission of the Promised One: “I bear witness that the verses revealed by Bahá’u’lláh were superior, in the rapidity with which they were penned, in the ease with which they flowed, in their lucidity, their profundity and sweetness to those which I, myself saw pour from the pen of the Báb when in His presence. Had Bahá’u’lláh no other claim to greatness, this were sufficient, in the eyes of the world and its people, that He produced such verses as have streamed this day from His pen.”
God Passes By. pp. 137-138​

If belief claims were true, they would no longer be belief claims. They would be truth claims, and could easily be demonstrated.

I do not want to play a game of semantics. My point was that beliefs can be the truth even if they cannot be demonstrated.

How is it possible that you can be so ignorant of the significance and the extreme magnitude of your extraordinary claims. You are claiming, without any evidence, that a supernatural, all-powerful, all-knowing, eternal God exists. You then want us to worship Him, obey Him, love Him, and subjugate ourselves to pious servitude. All because we bare the sins of His first disappointment, and must repent if we want to live again after we are dead. You then claim, without evidence, that a Persian man is the current Messenger from a God. But to add more insult to rational intelligence, you are claiming that it is irrational to need objective evidence for the existence of a God, or His Messenger. It is ironic that you criticize those asking for evidence, and all the while claiming that you do HAVE evidence.

I have evidence that supports the claims of Baha’u’llah, you just do not consider it evidence.

It is completely irrational to expect objective evidence of an immaterial God that does not reside in the material world, because obtaining such evidence is impossible. It is also impossible to prove that Baha’u’llah got a message from God, because only He got the message. We either believe Him or not based upon the evidence that supports His claim to be a Messenger of God.

I do not want anyone to obey God, love God, or subjugate themselves to God in pious servitude. That is a choice everyone has to make for themselves. That is why we have free will. The soul of everyone will continue to exist after their body dies, whether they believed in God or not. The question is whether they will have eternal life, which is

“The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, “Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom.” 2”
Some Answered Questions, p. 223​

The goal of your religion is to create a New World Order? A Kingdom of God here on earth? There will eventually be only ONE religion, and EVERYONE will believe in God? Humanity must HEED to the counsels of Baha'u'llah? The Unity of Mankind must be FIRMLY established? I think I've heard enough. I sincerely hope that a world-wide theocracy will never come to pass. Can you imagine the abuse that it would lend itself to?

That is a straw man. I never said anything about a theocracy. We all have free will and this is the basis for ALL human behavior, so the Kingdom of God will come about by the choices people make. In short, in the distant future, all people will voluntarily choose to become part of one religion and all people will voluntarily choose to believe in God. By that time, God will have exalted the Cause of Baha’u’llah so everyone will KNOW who He was and believe in Him. Thus everyone will also believe in God.

“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 248

“The Day is approaching when God will render the hosts of Truth victorious, and He will purge the whole earth in such wise that within the compass of His knowledge not a single soul shall remain unless he truly believeth in God,worshippeth none other God but Him, boweth down by day and by night in His adoration, and is reckoned among such as are well assured.”
Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 153-154​

We are all humans, and therefore imperfect. Can you imagine what would happen when a bunch of imperfect old men(no women) have the power to control the behavior, and beliefs of the entire world? What about those billions that choose rational evidence over religious beliefs to live their lives? Will the new world order crusaders be sent to keep them in line? Fortunately, history has repeatedly shown what happens to those seeking total power, or world domination. Hopefully people will see past the low-key Donald Trump rhetoric, and expose the terrible consequences of this religious insanity.

There will not be any people like the atheists of today in the future, people who think they need objective proof that God exists. Everyone will just KNOW that God exists. The Baha’i Faith is not seeking power over anyone. That is laughable. Baha’is are not even allowed to be involved in politics and that will never change.

“The Faith which this order serves, safeguards and promotes is … essentially supernatural, supranational, entirely non-political, non-partisan, and diametrically opposed to any policy or school of thought that seeks to exalt any particular race, class or nation. It is free from any form of ecclesiasticism, has neither priesthood nor rituals, and is supported exclusively by voluntary contributions made by its avowed adherents. Though loyal to their respective governments, though imbued with the love of their own country, and anxious to promote at all times, its best interests, the followers of the Bahá’í Faith, nevertheless, viewing mankind as one entity, and profoundly attached to its vital interests, will not hesitate to subordinate every particular interest, be it personal, regional or national, to the over-riding interests of the generality of mankind, knowing full well that in a world of interdependent peoples and nations the advantage of the part is best to be reached by the advantage of the whole, and that no lasting result can be achieved by any of the component parts if the general interests of the entity itself are neglected….”
The Promised Day Is Come, vi - vii​

A new world order will rise up on its own because governments will choose to change and follow the model that Baha’u’llah set forth, since they will realize that it is in their best interest to do so.

History will never repeat itself, because this is a whole new day in history, a new Day of God, a new religious cycle. This is a day that will not be followed by night because the Revelation of Baha’u’llah is unlike any revelation of God that has preceded it.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

I do not know ONLY because of what Baha’u’llah wrote. I also know because of His Life, what He did on his Mission, Bible prophecies that He fulfilled, and predictions He made that came to pass.

Regarding His Writings, I consider the way His verses were written to be proof of the supernatural:

“So prolific was this period, that during the first two years after His return from His retirement, according to the testimony of Nabíl, who was at that time living in Baghdád, the unrecorded verses that streamed from His lips averaged, in a single day and night, the equivalent of the Qur’án! As to those verses which He either dictated or wrote Himself, their number was no less remarkable than either the wealth of material they contained, or the diversity of subjects to which they referred.........A certain MuḥammadKarím, a native of Shíráz, who had been a witness to the rapidity and the manner in which the Báb had penned the verses with which He was inspired, has left the following testimony to posterity, after attaining, during those days, the presence of Bahá’u’lláh, and beholding with his own eyes what he himself had considered to be the only proof of the mission of the Promised One: “I bear witness that the verses revealed by Bahá’u’lláh were superior, in the rapidity with which they were penned, in the ease with which they flowed, in their lucidity, their profundity and sweetness to those which I, myself saw pour from the pen of the Báb when in His presence. Had Bahá’u’lláh no other claim to greatness, this were sufficient, in the eyes of the world and its people, that He produced such verses as have streamed this day from His pen.”
God Passes By. pp. 137-138​

I do not want to play a game of semantics. My point was that beliefs can be the truth even if they cannot be demonstrated.

I have evidence that supports the claims of Baha’u’llah, you just do not consider it evidence.

It is completely irrational to expect objective evidence of an immaterial God that does not reside in the material world, because obtaining such evidence is impossible. It is also impossible to prove that Baha’u’llah got a message from God, because only He got the message. We either believe Him or not based upon the evidence that supports His claim to be a Messenger of God.

I do not want anyone to obey God, love God, or subjugate themselves to God in pious servitude. That is a choice everyone has to make for themselves. That is why we have free will. The soul of everyone will continue to exist after their body dies, whether they believed in God or not. The question is whether they will have eternal life, which is

“The immortality of the spirit is mentioned in the Holy Books; it is the fundamental basis of the divine religions. Now punishments and rewards are said to be of two kinds: first, the rewards and punishments of this life; second, those of the other world. But the paradise and hell of existence are found in all the worlds of God, whether in this world or in the spiritual heavenly worlds. Gaining these rewards is the gaining of eternal life. That is why Christ said, “Act in such a way that you may find eternal life, and that you may be born of water and the spirit, so that you may enter into the Kingdom.” 2”
Some Answered Questions, p. 223​

That is a straw man. I never said anything about a theocracy. We all have free will and this is the basis for ALL human behavior, so the Kingdom of God will come about by the choices people make. In short, in the distant future, all people will voluntarily choose to become part of one religion and all people will voluntarily choose to believe in God. By that time, God will have exalted the Cause of Baha’u’llah so everyone will KNOW who He was and believe in Him. Thus everyone will also believe in God.

“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 248

“The Day is approaching when God will render the hosts of Truth victorious, and He will purge the whole earth in such wise that within the compass of His knowledge not a single soul shall remain unless he truly believeth in God,worshippeth none other God but Him, boweth down by day and by night in His adoration, and is reckoned among such as are well assured.”
Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 153-154​

There will not be any people like the atheists of today in the future, people who think they need objective proof that God exists. Everyone will just KNOW that God exists. The Baha’i Faith is not seeking power over anyone. That is laughable. Baha’is are not even allowed to be involved in politics and that will never change.

“The Faith which this order serves, safeguards and promotes is … essentially supernatural, supranational, entirely non-political, non-partisan, and diametrically opposed to any policy or school of thought that seeks to exalt any particular race, class or nation. It is free from any form of ecclesiasticism, has neither priesthood nor rituals, and is supported exclusively by voluntary contributions made by its avowed adherents. Though loyal to their respective governments, though imbued with the love of their own country, and anxious to promote at all times, its best interests, the followers of the Bahá’í Faith, nevertheless, viewing mankind as one entity, and profoundly attached to its vital interests, will not hesitate to subordinate every particular interest, be it personal, regional or national, to the over-riding interests of the generality of mankind, knowing full well that in a world of interdependent peoples and nations the advantage of the part is best to be reached by the advantage of the whole, and that no lasting result can be achieved by any of the component parts if the general interests of the entity itself are neglected….”
The Promised Day Is Come, vi - vii​

A new world order will rise up on its own because governments will choose to change and follow the model that Baha’u’llah set forth, since they will realize that it is in their best interest to do so.

History will never repeat itself, because this is a whole new day in history, a new Day of God, a new religious cycle. This is a day that will not be followed by night because the Revelation of Baha’u’llah is unlike any revelation of God that has preceded it.

Since it is impossible for any event in the past to recreate itself and repeat itself, obviously history can't repeat itself. But my reference to history, was that we must learned from its mistakes, and not repeat them. There have always been utopian bliss merchants, peddling the their standard of truth to the ignorant, all throughout history. They have all failed. They were so convinced that they were right, that they completely blinded themselves to the fact that they could be wrong. Aligning your supernatural beliefs and values with a supernatural entity, is one thing. But, to abandon logic, consequence, critical thinking, common sense, and individuality, is another. Sorry, the hive/sheep mentality is not for the rational creative thinkers. And, judging by the type of logic you deposit in your posts, I'd say you are more than suited.

Eventually, ALL arguments will fail without any supporting evidence. What is the difference between a truth claim and a belief claim? One requires evidence and the other doesn't. This is not a game of semantic, it is simply stating a fact. Maybe you can give me a belief claim that can be falsifiable like a truth claim? Any example will do. How can you not understand that if it is irrational to expect extraordinary evidence to support extraordinary claims, then it is also irrational to accept extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence. This would open the door(slippery slope) for the legitimacy of all extraordinary claims. So, why should your claim be accepted, and all the other claims not be accepted? Without evidence, why are you right, and the others wrong?

You have now added the term "voluntarily" to your earlier manifesto. Unfortunately, the writings you deposited does not support this addition. Maybe you can cite where choice is mentioned?

The Day is approaching when God will render the hosts of Truth victorious, and He will purge the whole earth in such wise that within the compass of His knowledge not a single soul shall remain unless he truly believeth in God, worshippeth none other God but Him, boweth down by day and by night in His adoration, and is reckoned among such as are well assured.”

“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth.”

Just more twisted cult logic, disguised in the innocence of purity, or as the salvation of mankind. It is naivety at the highest level, to believe that a new world order can be achieved with choice. If you are saying that a Deity is NOT the source in which all authority is derived, then your are correct, it is not a Theocracy. Exactly what type of world government are we talking about? Why should any person give up their freedoms, personal beliefs, culture and customs, religious beliefs, and rituals, simply to become part of this new world order? Other than providing for the world's spiritual needs, what experience does your faith have in governance, and providing for the world's other needs? Oh, that's right your faith is non-political and non-partisan. How would you also address dissenters, critics, rational thinkers, or other maverick religions?

I suppose that there are stranger beliefs out there. There are those that believe that aliens will return and take them back to their home planet. Some believe that when they're dead, they will enjoy the company of beautiful virgins. Some even believe that they will have everlasting bliss, as a reward for their faithful servitude. I suppose anything is possible if you can just believe hard enough.

 

[Trailblazer]

Since it is impossible for any event in the past to recreate itself and repeat itself, obviously history can't repeat itself. But my reference to history, was that we must learned from its mistakes, and not repeat them. There have always been utopian bliss merchants, peddling the their standard of truth to the ignorant, all throughout history. They have all failed. They were so convinced that they were right, that they completely blinded themselves to the fact that they could be wrong. Aligning your supernatural beliefs and values with a supernatural entity, is one thing. But, to abandon logic, consequence, critical thinking, common sense, and individuality, is another. Sorry, the hive/sheep mentality is not for the rational creative thinkers. And, judging by the type of logic you deposit in your posts, I'd say you are more than suited.

The fact that others have pedaled utopian bliss and thought they were right proves nothing about the Baha’i Faith. That does not mean we are wrong. To say that is the fallacy of hasty generalization. Time will tell but we won’t be alive to see it.

Sorry, the hive/sheep mentality is not for the Baha’is because we are going against all the older religions, everything that other believers believe.

Eventually, ALL arguments will fail without any supporting evidence. What is the difference between a truth claim and a belief claim? One requires evidence and the other doesn't. This is not a game of semantic, it is simply stating a fact. Maybe you can give me a belief claim that can be falsifiable like a truth claim? Any example will do. How can you not understand that if it is irrational to expect extraordinary evidence to support extraordinary claims, then it is also irrational to accept extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence. This would open the door (slippery slope) for the legitimacy of all extraordinary claims. So, why should your claim be accepted, and all the other claims not be accepted? Without evidence, why are you right, and the others wrong?

The word evidence is means different things to different people, yet people use the word as if it can only mean one thing, what it means to them. They are looking for something specific and if it does not match up to that then they say there is no evidence. I have been posting about this for five years on various forums so I know what I am talking about.

I am not trying to win any arguments. I believe I have extraordinary evidence and that is why I believe the extraordinary claims. Most people are not going to see it that way. Only a few people will see it for a long time, until it is obvious. It is that way with every “new” religion.

You have now added the term "voluntarily" to your earlier manifesto. Unfortunately, the writings you deposited does not support this addition. Maybe you can cite where choice is mentioned?

What Writings did I post that said any force was ever to be used? It is implicit in the Baha’i Faith that everything is a choice because we all have free will.

“For every one of you his paramount duty is to choose for himself that on which no other may infringe and none usurp from him. Such a thing—and to this the Almighty is My witness—is the love of God, could ye but perceive it.

Build ye for yourselves such houses as the rain and floods can never destroy, which shall protect you from the changes and chances of this life. This is the instruction of Him Whom the world hath wronged and forsaken.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 261​

Just more twisted cult logic, disguised in the innocence of purity, or as the salvation of mankind. It is naivety at the highest level, to believe that a new world order can be achieved with choice. If you are saying that a Deity is NOT the source in which all authority is derived, then your are correct, it is not a Theocracy. Exactly what type of world government are we talking about? Why should any person give up their freedoms, personal beliefs, culture and customs, religious beliefs, and rituals, simply to become part of this new world order? Other than providing for the world's spiritual needs, what experience does your faith have in governance, and providing for the world's other needs? Oh, that's right your faith is non-political and non-partisan. How would you also address dissenters, critics, rational thinkers, or other maverick religions?

God is the Source of all authority. Baha’u’llah spoke for God so you can do the math. Humans have free will so the new world order will ALL be achieved by human choice. We are only in the early phases of a spiritual evolution that will continue far into the future. The new world order is slowly evolving.

The details are explained in this book: The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh

In the future people will want to be part of one world order because humanity will be in a different place than it is now. People won’t be attached to their own personal beliefs, culture and customs, religious beliefs, and rituals. There will not be any dissenters, critics, or other maverick religions by then.

Isaiah used symbolic language to describe the future He saw:

Isaiah 11:6-9 “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.”​

What this means to a Baha’i is that In the future diverse religions and races will become comrades, friends and companions. The contentions of races, the differences of religions, and the barriers between nations will be completely removed, and all will attain perfect union and reconciliation.

Eventually, there will be only one religion, the religion of God. “for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea” means that everyone will believe in God. There will only be one religion, the religion of God.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

The fact that others have pedaled utopian bliss and thought they were right proves nothing about the Baha’i Faith. That does not mean we are wrong. To say that is the fallacy of hasty generalization. Time will tell but we won’t be alive to see it.

Sorry, the hive/sheep mentality is not for the Baha’is because we are going against all the older religions, everything that other believers believe.

The word evidence is means different things to different people, yet people use the word as if it can only mean one thing, what it means to them. They are looking for something specific and if it does not match up to that then they say there is no evidence. I have been posting about this for five years on various forums so I know what I am talking about.

I am not trying to win any arguments. I believe I have extraordinary evidence and that is why I believe the extraordinary claims. Most people are not going to see it that way. Only a few people will see it for a long time, until it is obvious. It is that way with every “new” religion.

What Writings did I post that said any force was ever to be used? It is implicit in the Baha’i Faith that everything is a choice because we all have free will.

“For every one of you his paramount duty is to choose for himself that on which no other may infringe and none usurp from him. Such a thing—and to this the Almighty is My witness—is the love of God, could ye but perceive it.

Build ye for yourselves such houses as the rain and floods can never destroy, which shall protect you from the changes and chances of this life. This is the instruction of Him Whom the world hath wronged and forsaken.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 261​

God is the Source of all authority. Baha’u’llah spoke for God so you can do the math. Humans have free will so the new world order will ALL be achieved by human choice. We are only in the early phases of a spiritual evolution that will continue far into the future. The new world order is slowly evolving.

The details are explained in this book: The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh

In the future people will want to be part of one world order because humanity will be in a different place than it is now. People won’t be attached to their own personal beliefs, culture and customs, religious beliefs, and rituals. There will not be any dissenters, critics, or other maverick religions by then.

Isaiah used symbolic language to describe the future He saw:

Isaiah 11:6-9 “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.”​

What this means to a Baha’i is that In the future diverse religions and races will become comrades, friends and companions. The contentions of races, the differences of religions, and the barriers between nations will be completely removed, and all will attain perfect union and reconciliation.

Eventually, there will be only one religion, the religion of God. “for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea” means that everyone will believe in God. There will only be one religion, the religion of God.

Why do you always obfuscate whatever I say by slightly changing its meaning? I never said anything about peddling utopian bliss as being right or wrong. I said that history has demonstrated that all those that did peddle this nonsense, have all failed. Therefore, not a faulty assumption, just a stated fact. Constantly correcting your misrepresentations is just becoming annoying and distracting. Because your faith is a poor syncretic composite of older beliefs, doesn't mean that it is somehow special and less dogmatic than the older beliefs. Also stating that "because we are going against all the older religions, everything that other believers believe" is not entirely true, is it? Or, shall I list all the similarities? Also, the hive instinct is necessary for suppressing individuality and critical thinking. Since we are talking about a new world order, would it not be essential that everyone be on the same page at least?

The fact that you have been posting for over 5 years, does not mean that you KNOW what you are taking about. It could also mean that you may think that you know what you are talking about. I'm sure there are people that will believe that I am Napoleon's reincarnation. The best evidence should be objective evidence. Since you are making an extraordinary claim(Messenger of a God), you must provide the best evidence to support your claim. Since you claim that this extraordinary evidence has convinced you that the extraordinary claim is true, then this truth claim is only subjective. Therefore, it is NOT objective evidence. Is this your intellectual strategy? Just keep throwing enough twisted logic, and near-religious-secular-sounding spiritual dogma, to peak the interest of the unsuspected? Or do your claims act as a beacon to lure those looking for any alternative-sounding belief system? You are correct, you can't win any arguments without at least some evidence. So it is irrelevant if you are trying to win or not.

Religious and sectarian antagonism, the hostility of races and peoples, and differences among nations, will be eliminated. All men will adhere to one religion, will have one common faith, will be blended into one race, and become a single people. All will dwell in one common fatherland, which is the planet itself.”

Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee,

The Day is approaching when God will render the hosts of Truth victorious, and He will purge the whole earth in such wise that within the compass of His knowledge not a single soul shall remain unless he truly believeth in God,worshippeth none other God but Him, boweth down by day and by night in His adoration, and is reckoned among such as are well assured.”

I'm not going to keep quoting and arguing over the true meaning of these scriptures. The meaning is very clear to an impartial and unbiased mind. If God is the source of Authority, then you are indeed talking about a world-wide Theocracy, by definition. I take it that you do not believe in the "second coming"? You believe that an eventual new world order will exist? It is very true that Religions will never go away, and that secularism will eventually be on the decline, in spite of the advances made in technology and our understanding of nature. People are basically illogical, but as long as there are social differences in education, freedoms, races, sexes, customs, languages, rituals, cultures, and the physical environment, there will always be bigotry, racism, prejudice, elitism, nationalism, distrust, and protectionism. Hardly conducive to a new world order.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why do you always obfuscate whatever I say by slightly changing its meaning? I never said anything about peddling utopian bliss as being right or wrong. I said that history has demonstrated that all those that did peddle this nonsense, have all failed.

And that is what I understood and responded to. If those who pedaled utopian bliss “failed to predict” it they were wrong about it coming to pass. However just because others predicted utopian bliss and it did not come to pass does not mean that the Baha’i Faith is wrong and it won’t come to pass in the future. That is a hasty generalization.

Also stating that "because we are going against all the older religions, everything that other believers believe" is not entirely true, is it? Or, shall I list all the similarities? Also, the hive instinct is necessary for suppressing individuality and critical thinking. Since we are talking about a new world order, would it not be essential that everyone be on the same page at least?

No, it is not entirely true, because the Baha’i Faith shares the spiritual verities with all the older religions, since those are eternal. What we are going against are the teachings of those older religions, since Baha’u’llah brought new teachings and claimed to be the Return of Christ and the Messiah. That is precisely why He was opposed by all the religious leaders who were in power at the time and still is opposed by other religions.

Yes, it is necessary that we are on the same page with the teachings of Baha’u’llah, but that does not mean that individuality and critical thinking is suppressed. It is necessary to be on the same page in order to maintain unity rather than discord, but that does not mean we are in a hive.

The fact that you have been posting for over 5 years, does not mean that you KNOW what you are talking about. It could also mean that you may think that you know what you are talking about.

I said “They are looking for something specific and if it does not match up to that then they say there is no evidence. I have been posting about this for five years on various forums so I know what I am talking about.” What I meant is that I know what atheists say about evidence and what they require. I know that because I have been listening to atheists 24/7 for five years.

I'm sure there are people that will believe that I am Napoleon's reincarnation. The best evidence should be objective evidence. Since you are making an extraordinary claim(Messenger of a God), you must provide the best evidence to support your claim. Since you claim that this extraordinary evidence has convinced you that the extraordinary claim is true, then this truth claim is only subjective. Therefore, it is NOT objective evidence. Is this your intellectual strategy? Just keep throwing enough twisted logic, and near-religious-secular-sounding spiritual dogma, to peak the interest of the unsuspected? Or do your claims act as a beacon to lure those looking for any alternative-sounding belief system? You are correct, you can't win any arguments without at least some evidence. So it is irrelevant if you are trying to win or not.

I do not have a strategy. I am not trying to win an argument. I am not trying to lure anyone into anything. These are your thoughts that you project onto me. I just answer posts and explain what I believe and how I came to believe it. There is evidence but there is no evidence that supports any Messenger of God or religion that everybody is going to believe so there is no objective evidence as you define it. There is objective evidence that supports the claims of Baha’u’llah but they are interpreted subjectively since everyone is an individual with their own personal opinions about the evidence. There is no way that everyone could ever interpret the same evidence the same way because humans are all different in how they think and in their personal backgrounds. This is psych 101 stuff and logic 101 stuff.

I'm not going to keep quoting and arguing over the true meaning of these scriptures. The meaning is very clear to an impartial and unbiased mind. If God is the source of Authority, then you are indeed talking about a world-wide Theocracy, by definition.

No, you are wrong about a theocracy. I know my own religion better than you do after 48 years.

Definition of theocracy
government of a state by immediate divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided.
Definition of THEOCRACY

Sorry but no. This does not describe any intent of the Baha’i Faith. We are not going to be the government of a state because we cannot ever be involved in secular governments. We have our own system of government which is separate from secular government and it only governs those who have freely chosen to become Baha’is.

I take it that you do not believe in the "second coming"? You believe that an eventual new world order will exist?

Baha’u’llah was the second coming, the Return of Christ. His Mission was to establish the Kingdom of God on earth, also known as the new world order.

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 7​

 

[Truly Enlightened]

And that is what I understood and responded to. If those who pedaled utopian bliss “failed to predict” it they were wrong about it coming to pass. However just because others predicted utopian bliss and it did not come to pass does not mean that the Baha’i Faith is wrong and it won’t come to pass in the future. That is a hasty generalization.

No, it is not entirely true, because the Baha’i Faith shares the spiritual verities with all the older religions, since those are eternal. What we are going against are the teachings of those older religions, since Baha’u’llah brought new teachings and claimed to be the Return of Christ and the Messiah. That is precisely why He was opposed by all the religious leaders who were in power at the time and still is opposed by other religions.

Yes, it is necessary that we are on the same page with the teachings of Baha’u’llah, but that does not mean that individuality and critical thinking is suppressed. It is necessary to be on the same page in order to maintain unity rather than discord, but that does not mean we are in a hive.

I said “They are looking for something specific and if it does not match up to that then they say there is no evidence. I have been posting about this for five years on various forums so I know what I am talking about.” What I meant is that I know what atheists say about evidence and what they require. I know that because I have been listening to atheists 24/7 for five years.

I do not have a strategy. I am not trying to win an argument. I am not trying to lure anyone into anything. These are your thoughts that you project onto me. I just answer posts and explain what I believe and how I came to believe it. There is evidence but there is no evidence that supports any Messenger of God or religion that everybody is going to believe so there is no objective evidence as you define it. There is objective evidence that supports the claims of Baha’u’llah but they are interpreted subjectively since everyone is an individual with their own personal opinions about the evidence. There is no way that everyone could ever interpret the same evidence the same way because humans are all different in how they think and in their personal backgrounds. This is psych 101 stuff and logic 101 stuff.

No, you are wrong about a theocracy. I know my own religion better than you do after 48 years.

Definition of theocracy
government of a state by immediate divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided.
Definition of THEOCRACY

Sorry but no. This does not describe any intent of the Baha’i Faith. We are not going to be the government of a state because we cannot ever be involved in secular governments. We have our own system of government which is separate from secular government and it only governs those who have freely chosen to become Baha’is.

Baha’u’llah was the second coming, the Return of Christ. His Mission was to establish the Kingdom of God on earth, also known as the new world order.

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 7​

Please re-read what a formal and deductive fallacy is again. History has demonstrated that all religious, social, and political ideals that promote utopian world of bliss, peace, happiness, security, trust, or mutual love, WILL FAIL. There are many reasons why they all fail. None have anything to do with them being right or wrong. Firstly, these unfalsifiable ideals and concepts, that only exist as a construct of the mind. They CAN'T be used to express any real aspect about the real nature of reality. Secondly, how does the criteria of objectivity of concepts in general, apply to any religious ideals themselves? Thirdly, it is instinctive that people will consider change as a threat to normalcy, and will generally resist it. Expecting people to change their cultural beliefs, customs, rituals, behavior, habits, practices, etc., is truly a big ask. And, an even bigger prediction. This is not about right and wrong, or truth and falsehood. It is about how history has demonstrated how this Utopian nonsense has failed in the past, and why it will fail in the future. But since belief is based on ignorance, the facts in history will be irrelevant to you. Fourthly, NOTHING IS PERFECT. No ideals, principals, concepts, or human nature is perfect. They all have their flaws and their limitations. Therefore, peddling utopian bliss as the inevitable consequence of political and religious chaos, is at worst a confidence trick or a lure, and at best naïve and ignorant. Finally, you provide no objective evidence that can support any of your assertions. Other than to continue parroting that the evidence exist, and only those who believe first can see it. Or, that since you have convinced yourself that the evidence is objective and valid, then the evidence must be objective and valid. https://listverse.com/2016/03/19/10-failed-attempts-to-create-state-cults-or-religions/

The Roman Republic, The Weimar Republic in Germany, The Kerensky Provisional Government of Russia (after Czar Nicolas' abdication), The Kuomintang Government of China and the Islamic Democratic Republic of Iraq(formerly headed by Ouri al Maliki), were all the major failures of democracy, and led to many catastrophic changes in World history. These are the historical lessons from past political failures. They also thought that their system was perfect.

The Baha'i faith believe that religion and science are the paths to the same reality(without evidence). They believe that every person should investigate the truth for themselves, before making a choice(without defending their own truth claims). They believe that there is no paradox to being a spiritual person, and a rational person(a belief without evidence). They also believe in the empowerment and equality of women except that,

• Women get a smaller share of inheritance compared to men

• Men how to pay dowry (women don’t)

• Men can practice polygamy (two wives) women cannot(have two husbands)

• Women cannot be members of the Universal House of Justice (UHJ)

• Station of Guardianship is only reserved for men

* Women are not allowed to be the head of the family

* Only men are allowed financial responsibilities

* Women are not allowed to inherit property

Therefore not really true, right?

And, just like most of your claims, they all fail when closely scrutinized. You keep saying "not a Theocracy", but your own definition says that it is a Theocracy. If the source of ultimate power over others comes from a divine source, or a deity, then it is indeed a Theocracy. So having your "own system of government which is separate from secular government and it only governs those who have freely chosen to become Baha’is", would not be a new world order, would it? It would simply be a composite of other religions, and called Baha'i. Your writings do not say some will choose the Baha'i faith, it states that ALL will choose, period. Do you really believe that given free choice EVERYONE will simply choose this faith over all other faiths?

In either case, this pattern of denying, redefining, avoiding, misrepresenting, distorting, and fallaciousness, is becoming boring, and an exercise in futility. Since you are only here to parrot what you believe, and why you believe it is a valid belief (without verifiable evidence), then it is only your freedom of speech that is relevant, and not any truths. The subway is full of people that produce the same rhetoric everyday. But for those of us in the 3-4% of society, a bit of unbiased and objective evidence will not be ignored.

 

[Trailblazer]

Please re-read what a formal and deductive fallacy is again. History has demonstrated that all religious, social, and political ideals that promote utopian world of bliss, peace, happiness, security, trust, or mutual love, WILL FAIL. There are many reasons why they all fail. None have anything to do with them being right or wrong.

History cannot prove what will happen in the future because history does not HAVE TO repeat itself. You cannot know it will fail unless you are God or a Messenger of God (Prophet) because you cannot SEE into the future. There are many reasons why the new world order will succeed, not the least of which is that it has been foreordained by God. How long it will take to establish will depend upon how long it takes for humans to change and do the work necessary to create it.

it is instinctive that people will consider change as a threat to normalcy, and will generally resist it. Expecting people to change their cultural beliefs, customs, rituals, behavior, habits, practices, etc., is truly a big ask.

Nobody will be asking anyone to do anything. Free will is sacrosanct. People will eventually choose to do what is for the good of the whole as opposed to clinging to their older religions with their cultural beliefs, customs, rituals, behavior, habits, practices, etc. And it is not as if they cannot still retain their individual culture and customs and also be part of a larger purpose.

Fourthly, NOTHING IS PERFECT. No ideals, principals, concepts, or human nature is perfect. They all have their flaws and their limitations. Therefore, peddling utopian bliss as the inevitable consequence of political and religious chaos, is at worst a confidence trick or a lure, and at best naïve and ignorant.

Why would it have to be perfect? Nobody is perfect but that does not preclude a new world order and striving towards noble goals. We are living in the very early stages of the building of the new world order; the foundation has barely been laid down. It will take hundreds of years, maybe thousands, to achieve this. It will require the raising up of a new race of men.

“At the heart of this system was what Bahá’u’lláh termed a “new Covenant” between God and humankind. The distinguishing feature of humanity’s coming of age is that, for the first time in its history, the entire human race is consciously involved, however dimly, in the awareness of its own oneness and of the earth as a single homeland. This awakening opens the way to a new relationship between God and humankind. As the peoples of the world embrace the spiritual authority inherent in the guidance of the Revelation of God for this age, Bahá’u’lláh said, they will find in themselves a moral empowerment which human effort alone has proven incapable of generating. “A new race of men” will emerge as the result of this relationship, and the work of building a global civilization will begin.”
(Bahá’í International Community, 1992 May 29, Statement on Bahá’u’lláh, p. 26)

“In this age humanity has strayed far from the path of truth, and the call of Bahá’u’lláh to recognize Him as the viceregent of God on earth has fallen on deaf ears. But a careful study of His writings leads us to believe that His Revelation, being the culmination of past Revelations and one which has ushered in the Day of God Himself, will exert such a potent influence upon mankind as a whole that eventually all the peoples of the world will recognize His station of their own free will and embrace His cause of their own volition. And this in turn will bring about, in the distant future, the appearance of a new race of men whose noble character and spiritual virtues we, in this age, are unable to visualize.”
(Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 3, p. 3)

New Race of Men​

The Roman Republic, The Weimar Republic in Germany, The Kerensky Provisional Government of Russia (after Czar Nicolas' abdication), The Kuomintang Government of China and the Islamic Democratic Republic of Iraq(formerly headed by Ouri al Maliki), were all the major failures of democracy, and led to many catastrophic changes in World history. These are the historical lessons from past political failures. They also thought that their system was perfect.

The World Order of Baha’u’llah is not a political system. It is a divinely ordained system. The difference between it and those you cited is that it has God behind it, so it cannot fail. If the Baha’is fail, God will raise up others who will build it. That is somewhere in the Baha’i Writings, but I cannot find the quote.

So having your "own system of government which is separate from secular government and it only governs those who have freely chosen to become Baha’is", would not be a new world order, would it? It would simply be a composite of other religions, and called Baha'i. Your writings do not say some will choose the Baha'i faith, it states that ALL will choose, period. Do you really believe that given free choice EVERYONE will simply choose this faith over all other faiths?

In the future the principles of Baha’u’llah will be voluntarily adopted by governments and that will constitute the new world order.

In the future, people will freely choose to be part of one religion. By the time that occurs, the “one religion” might not even be called the Baha’i Faith, because more Messengers will come in the future and establish more new religions. New teachings and Laws will be revealed according to the needs of the times, but all future dispensations for the next 500,000 years will be under the shadow of Baha’u’llah since He inaugurated in the new religious cycle, the Cycle of Fulfillment.

 

[Trailblazer]

I didn't think could do so in a hundred posts but that is what you would have to show to carry your point.

I am not one to mince words, like some Baha’is. I believe that the Christian mainstream understanding of the Bible is wrong on certain points.

I think the God who would enter into our own suffering and show he is one of us and to give us the perfect example of conduct is greater than a God who stands aloof from our struggles and hardships and just yells down demands from on high. My God didn't talk about love he came down here and enacted his love.

I do not believe that God ever came to earth. God is an immaterial Being, so He cannot come to earth. God cannot incarnate His Essence and reveal it to man because God is beyond anything that can ever be recounted or perceived by anyone.

Well, if you admit this then your views are so close to mine that there is nothing left worth argument over.

So you are okay with Jesus being a Manifestation of God and not God incarnated in the flesh?

All you have to do is realize that God is one being composed of three persons.

If fact you could even argue that seeing Jesus is not to see God because his crude flesh was not his divine spirit (or essence). Thinking of things in this way is the only way your verses and my verses harmonize.

I agree that seeing Jesus is not to see God because the Essence of God cannot become a man in the flesh. That is why Jesus cannot be God. Jesus was a Manifestation of God, a perfect mirror image of God. Jesus was a divine man sent by God who brought the Holy Spirit. God sent the Holy Spirit to Jesus and Jesus brought the Holy Spirit to humanity. The Holy Spirit is not a part of God, it is the Bounty of God, an emanation from God that God sent to Jesus.

God is forever one and cannot be divided into parts.

“And now concerning thy reference to the existence of two Gods. Beware, beware, lest thou be led to join partners with the Lord, thy God. He is, and hath from everlasting been, one and alone, without peer or equal, eternal in the past, eternal in the future, detached from all things, ever-abiding, unchangeable, and self-subsisting. He hath assigned no associate unto Himself in His Kingdom, no counsellor to counsel Him, none to compare unto Him, none to rival His glory.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 192​

You can think of God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit working together as a “team” in order to get the Gospel message out to humanity. A team has various members but they are separate yet connected in purpose. The Essence of God is separate from Jesus and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit emanates from God’s Essence and is reflected in Jesus. Jesus was a Mediator between God and man, who brought the Holy Spirit and the Gospel message to humanity. Notice that the following verse says that there is one God and one mediator BETWEEN God and man.

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,​

Baha’is believer there were other mediators at different times in history, but that during the Dispensation of Jesus, Jesus was the only mediator, the only way to access God, which is why the Bible says:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.​

I tell you what. I never agree with you Baha'i and I think you mangle everyone else's scriptures but every single one of you has been as polite as anyone could hope for. I believe that Jesus was 100% flesh and 100% spirit but I think that only his spiritual form is his divine essence.

Words have definitions but in context they can mean different things. Flesh generally only has one meaning, but the word spirit and the word essence can have different meanings to different people, and what they mean depends upon the context in which they are used. So what do you mean by 100% flesh and 100% spirit? What do you mean that only his spiritual form is his divine essence?

Another example just like the first. Only God may forgive sins, Jesus forgave sins, therefore Jesus is God.

What gave you the idea that only God can forgive sins? Jesus had the power of God that God gave Him and God gave Jesus the power to forgive sins. As Jesus said in Mark 2:10 “But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,).”

Yes, this verse is showing the same thing. The scribes all question Jesus when he forgave sins because only God could do so but since the man was in fact forgiven his sins Jesus prevailed as he always does.

But the scribes were mistaken because they did not believe that Jesus had been given the power – by God -- to forgive sins.

No Jesus the spirit existed for eternity. It was only once he manifested himself on earth that he was given a body. Also after he died and rose again was he given his perfect body which he will always have from that point only. Believe I understand this can get confusing. His being given a perfect body after resurrection is to point to the fact that all believers will also receive a perfect body once we resurrect. This is why Jesus was called the first fruits.

The words soul and spirit can be used interchangeably in this context. That is what I said; the soul (spirit) of Jesus has always existed (for eternity) because it was in the spiritual world, which has always existed, since the spiritual world (heaven) is without beginning or end. I agree that the soul (spirit) of Jesus was only once he manifested on earth and that Jesus was given a body.

Where the Baha’i view differs from the traditional Christian view is that we do not believe that the body of Jesus resurrected from the grave and that Jesus was then given another “perfect body” and we do not thus believe that all believers will resurrect from physical graves and be given a perfect body. Baha’is believe that the physical body once dead remains dead but that when the physical body dies the soul leaves the body and wings its flight to the spiritual world (heaven). In heaven, the soul takes on another form, a new body which is comprised of heavenly elements that exist in the heavenly realm. Nobody knows what the realm is like so words fail to describe it. So yes, Baha’is believe that we get a new body after we die but we do not believe it is a physical body because a physical body is not needed in a purely spiritual realm, which is what heaven is.

1Cor 15 does not have the resurrected Jesus with a body. In 1 Corinthians 15:12-22, Some Christians believe that Paul was referring to a spiritual resurrection and that is what Baha’is also believe. http://www.religioustolerance.org/resur_lt.htm

That Jesus was raised up means His spirit was resurrected, brought back to life. If Christ’s spirit was not brought back to life, then your faith would be in vain and you would still be in your sins. “22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” means that all shall be made spiritually alive, not physically rise and be alive in bodies. That does not mean Jesus’ soul (spirit) was brought back to life (because the soul cannot die, so it does not need to be brought back to life); it means that the Cause of Christ (what He taught and represented) were brought back to life after three days... Had it NOT been brought back to life you would still be in your sins because it was the Cause of Christ that needed to be brought back to life in order to save people from their sins... People needed to get the Gospel message that Jesus taught and the disciples needed to carry that far and wide. Their faith in Jesus needed to be renewed (resurrected).

In 1 Corinthians 15:12-22, Paul was referring to a spiritual resurrection. That Jesus was raised up means His spirit was resurrected, brought back to life. If Christ’s spirit was not brought back to life, then your faith would be in vain and you would still be in your sins. “22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” means that all shall be made spiritually alive, not physically rise and be alive in bodies.

16 For if the dead rise not and 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead refer to Christ’s spiritual resurrection, not to anyone rising from graves.

“According to the Bahá’í teaching the Resurrection has nothing to do with the gross physical body. That body, once dead, is done with. It becomes decomposed and its atoms will never be recomposed into the same body.

Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, through the gift of the Holy Spirit bestowed through the Manifestation of God. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God. The sleep from which he awakens is the dormant spiritual condition in which many await the dawn of the Day of God. This dawn illumines all who have lived on the face of the earth, whether they are in the body or out of the body, but those who are spiritually blind cannot perceive it. The Day of Resurrection is not a day of twenty-four hours, but an era which has now begun and will last as long as the present world cycle continues. It will continue when all traces of the present civilization will have been wiped off the surface of the globe.” Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 222​

This is all about spiritual death, not physical death. As I said above, bodies once dead do not rise from graves. When we die, our souls leave the body and go to the spiritual world, where they continue to exist for eternity. The souls who are spiritually alive go to heaven the ones who are spiritually dead go to.... well, I do not know where they go. It has been called hell but it is a state of the soul that is distant from God, or even hates God, not a geographical location. Those souls might still have a chance to get close to God by reaching out to God for His mercy or by the prayers of others. There is no guarantee, and that is why it is best to get to know God and get close to God before we die.

 

[Vaderecta]

I am not one to mince words, like some Baha’is. I believe that the Christian mainstream understanding of the Bible is wrong on certain points.

So does the majority of the planet.

I do not believe that God ever came to earth. God is an immaterial Being

Ok... God is many things to many people and your are insulting, hurtful and a disgrace by pretending you know something no one else knows. Done with this conversation. You are entitled to your own opinion but if you want others to believe you try evidence and not fallacious nonsense arguments. Self respect used to be a thing.